Tim Duncan A Choker

[Lascar78]

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It was apparent. Your sarcasm missing its mark was the fault of the reader. I think you did a fine job

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To make sarcasm and irony more apparent to Walter and the other dominate posters around here, I might suggest using the Irony Mark next time.

[thesheedera]

I quoted you to show what things you were saying that were false. What didn't you understand about that. I'll be even more specific this time...

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who played poorly in SEVERAL, actually MOST of his big games

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FALSE

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MW generally played very poorly in big games.

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FALSE

And then you change the subject completely, and that's just sort of weird.

I'm not concerned with his per 48 stats. His production's increasing, and so are his minutes. but he's not the same player he was last year, adn if that isn't obvious to you, then we're clearly looking through very different lenses.

[exodus]

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Walter point to "sample size" being much larger in Duncan's case. Well duh, Duncan was a senior.

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Why treat me like I didn't know Duncan was a senior with that grade school insulting comment?!? That was my exact point, that Duncan's large sample size makes one poor game that much much less significant than MW's small sample size makes 3 consecutive poor big games that much more significant.

A couple games do matter when there are only a couple of big games to assess. Doesn't when there is a 4 year career to assess.

W

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In both cases the small sample sizes render the games relatively meaningless in predicting future success. Also the fact that Duncan was a senior makes it more damning that he choked in a big game after already having played in so many.

Duncan wasn't too impressive as a freshman either.

Here is the real reason your argument falls flat. Lets assume for the sake of argument that you are correct that Marvin's performance in the tourney was indicative of some weakness in his personality or his game. That is an indictment of picking him at 2 overall. And everyone here except KB21 already admits he was the wrong pick anyway. So what is the point? He didn't pick himself.

Plus Marvin has proven that he is perfectly capable of having a lousy game at any time, not just under pressure.

[Guest Walter]

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who played poorly in SEVERAL, actually MOST of his big games

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FALSE

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MW generally played very poorly in big games.

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FALSE

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[Guest Walter]

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Lets assume for the sake of argument that you are correct that Marvin's performance in the tourney was indicative of some weakness in his personality or his game. That is an indictment of picking him at 2 overall. And everyone here except KB21 already admits he was the wrong pick anyway.

So what is the point?

He didn't pick himself.

Plus Marvin has proven that he is perfectly capable of having a lousy game at any time, not just under pressure.

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People admit it was a mistake to draft MW but many still hold out some sort of high hope in him being great based upon...nothing really. Yes, we all agree (save KB) that MW was the wrong pick, I'm stating that banking on him further may be an added mistake for two reasons: 1) He's not all-around productive (is just a shooting scorer) & 2) he lacks the intangibles to want to much less become great.

I'm not trying to prove that picking MW was a mistake. Like you said that's proven. I'm stating that holding out hope for him becoming great isn't a smart bet given his intangibles.

[thesheedera]

I can't believe this. Maybe at least skim my post before you make more of a fool of yourself.

My whole post was about Marvin's freshman season, it had nothing to do with this season. Is that why you jumped to the per 48 numbers???

[exodus]

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I'm stating that banking on him further may be an added mistake for two reasons: 1) He's not all-around productive (is just a shooting scorer) & 2) he lacks the intangibles to want to much less become great.

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That isn't entirely true. Marvin has shown the ability to get to the line and shoots well from the line. He has also shown an effective jump hook in the lane. He can beat one man off the dribble reasonably well but then doesn't know how to handle the inevitable help defenders.

Frankly i don't see a lot of people hyping him to be a future great. I see a lot of people pointing to his improvement hoping that he won't be a bust. Personally i am just hoping he can get to Dengs level, which i think is within his ability.

As far as "holding on" to him being a mistake, i don't see how trading him is such a no brainer since it is highly unlikely they could get a quality center or pg for him.

[AtLaS]

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That isn't entirely true. Marvin has shown the ability to get to the line and shoots well from the line.

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Most of those calls have been complete bailout calls, in which he was so out of control and had no chance to score.

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He has also shown an effective jump hook in the lane.

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He showed it ONE game, the one where he made the lefty also, but that was 2 shots in one game, I haven't seen those shots again. He's a jumpshooter right now.

[Guest Walter]

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I can't believe this. Maybe at least skim my post before you make more of a fool of yourself.

My whole post was about Marvin's freshman season, it had nothing to do with this season. Is that why you jumped to the per 48 numbers???

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What other college season do you think these were from?

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Championship vs. Illinois.

Marvin shot 4-8, with 8 points, 5 rebounds, 2 turnovers, 0-1 FT. in 23 minutes.

Final 4 vs. Michigan State.

Marvin shot 1-6, with 2 points, 8 rebounds, 1 turnover, 1 ast, 1 block in 23 minutes.

Elite 8 vs. Wisconsin.

Marvin shot 1-6, with 6 points, 3 rebounds, 1 ast, 2 stl. in 21 minutes.

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I expect an acknowledgement of your error if not an apology AND, unless you bring proof that MWs didn't perform poorly in big games, consider yourself not only FALSE but your attempted indictment of me baseless and dropped.

W

[exodus]

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Most of those calls have been complete bailout calls

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Wade, Lebron and kobe get a lot of bailout calls too. it doesn't matter if they are bailout calls because they count the same as legit calls.

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He showed it ONE game, the one where he made the lefty also, but that was 2 shots in one game, I haven't seen those shots again.

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Then you haven't been paying attention. He has shown his right handed jump hook in several games other than the one in which he hit his lefty shot.

[exodus]

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Championship vs. Illinois.

Marvin shot 4-8, with 8 points, 5 rebounds, 2 turnovers, 0-1 FT. in 23 minutes.

Final 4 vs. Michigan State.

Marvin shot 1-6, with 2 points, 8 rebounds, 1 turnover, 1 ast, 1 block in 23 minutes.

Elite 8 vs. Wisconsin.

Marvin shot 1-6, with 6 points, 3 rebounds, 1 ast, 2 stl. in 21 minutes.

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I don't see how the Illinois game could be considered choking. The other two maybe but not that one.

[Guest Walter]

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Championship vs. Illinois.

Marvin shot 4-8, with 8 points, 5 rebounds, 2 turnovers, 0-1 FT. in 23 minutes.

Final 4 vs. Michigan State.

Marvin shot 1-6, with 2 points, 8 rebounds, 1 turnover, 1 ast, 1 block in 23 minutes.

Elite 8 vs. Wisconsin.

Marvin shot 1-6, with 6 points, 3 rebounds, 1 ast, 2 stl. in 21 minutes.

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I don't see how the Illinois game could be considered choking. The other two maybe but not that one.

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I don't think that game resembles choking either...certainly was just a slightly below average performance for him.

W

[mrhonline]

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It was apparent. Your sarcasm missing its mark was the fault of the reader. I think you did a fine job

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To make sarcasm and irony more apparent to Walter and the other dominate posters around here, I might suggest using the Irony Mark next time.

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[exodus]

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and the other

dominate

posters around here,

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I totally missed that the first time.

[AHF]

Walter - (responding to Ex but quote is from Walter)

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It's extremely faulty reasoning to think because a single player with a long established history of excellence went onto play poorly in a single game given a much larger sample size yet went onto greatness that another single player lacking anything resembling the same resume, much less excellence and who played poorly in SEVERAL, actually MOST of his big games in a much smaller sample size (and who didn't start, etc.) would siimilarly result in greatness.

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Only a straw man was making this argument.

My argument was that you can't rely on a small sample size to reliably predict a player's future production.

I was not arguing that Tim Duncan had a similar resume to Marvin or that Marvin would (or will) have a similarly great career.

Where are you getting this stuff?

Saying that A does not equal B does not say anything about whether A equals C.

A = performance in two (or three depending how you count it) games of 6 in the NCAA tournament during freshman year

B = future choker

C = future prospects of a senior big man player of the year and consensus #1 draft pick

[drzachary]

Wow, I can't believe this thread was moved.. Obviously Tim Duncan is only a vehicle to address the neverending Marvin debate.

[AHF]

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Wow, I can't believe this thread was moved.. Obviously Tim Duncan is only a vehicle to address the neverending Marvin debate.

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I think it was moved without reading the actual thread. The mods have other things going on in life so it is no biggie.