Moderators AHF Posted February 15, 2008 Moderators Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Quote: Show me a team in the league with a roster as flawed as the Hawks that wins on a consistent basis. Washington has no PG and a center who is no better than Horford and wins. Philly is at least equally flawed with no quality SG, SF or PF and a center who is basically Theo Ratliff plus a few inches. Cleveland has Lebron, a slow center and role players and will finish with about 15 wins more than we will. They actually make us look strong and deep at PG. How in God's name Indiana is competing with us, I don't know. They have absolute crap other than a good combo forward in Granger and not much else. Among their top 3 players that are playing right now are Michael Dunleavy and... I don't even know who to pick for that third spot but the fact that they make Dunleavy look good says something. We should be way ahead of these guys. Golden State wins without a PF or C and is 11 games better than us this season. Look at it this way - with Bibby out all year and Kevin Martin and Artest missing 34 games together and without an impact player at PF or C even when the team is healthy, Sacramento and their junk lineup has been better than us. How in the world should Sacramento in the West be doing better than us in the East? If Jim O'Brien can win 21 games with Indiana's junk lineup so far and Woody has won 21 games so far with Atlanta's lineup, I hope you would join me in approving a trade of coaches. * * * Bottomline, do you really think that out of the 30 teams in the NBA there should only be 8 with fewer wins than us at this point in the season? The injuries and youth of past years doesn't apply to this year. What the team is doing is the responsibility of Woodson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 I don't for a second think that Woody is a great coach or that he doesn't make mistakes. He is a young head coach and makes mistakes like young players make. I attribute most of our failures on a flawed lineup and then to a lesser degree having only a few players with a high basketball IQ. After that I put the blame on Woody and the assistant coaches. I wouldn't consider a couple of games in the standings to really be an endorsement of success so I would put Washington in the same boat in terms of perceived under achievement. Dalembert is MUCH better than you give him credit for being. Miller is a borderline All-Star PG and while they are nearly as talented at the forward spots as us they are much better at the 2 key positions for a basketball team. Again though, they are in the same boat as us success wise. Cleveland has the best player in the game (at least arguably) and like him or not a big difference maker at C and good shooters to spread the floor. I also like their coach more than Woody and was really disappointed when we weren't able to hire him instead of Woody. I think that he was BK's first choice if I remember correctly. It's hard to believe that Indiana can win many games because they aren't a very good team so I'll give you that one. I think that the west is overrated in terms of difficulty in getting wins because we are 9-10 against the west and Sacramento is 10-19 against the west so I can't give anything to them because until Bibby came back they weren't winning jack and now that their team is healthy they are much better than us at the PG and C spots. This is a league full of parity and there aren't many teams that consistently win without a superstar player. I would say that JJ is borderline superstar but not quite and until he hurt his hip we were playing much better, at least .500 ball. There also aren't many teams that win consistently without at least a good PG. In the east I count 2 teams with winning records without good PGs and that's Cleveland and Orlando. I believe that both teams have better coaches and I would trade Woody for either of them in a second but unfortunately that option isn't available. In the west Houston (Denver if you don't count AI as a PG) is probably the only team without a good PG and they happen to have 2 of the best in the NBA at their positions plus excellent role players and great coaching. Again, I would take Adelman over Woody any day but that option isn't available either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukegotgame Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Quote: Woodson has been asked to captain a cruise liner with an anchor and a rudder from a tiny boat and people seem to be surprised that we aren't going anywhere. Probably the 2 most important positions for a team to fill with quality players are center and point guard and here we are more than 3 years into his term and he has a group of backup PGs and a rookie running the team and a rookie PF anchoring it at C. How in the world he is expected to consistently get wins with such a poorly constructed team is beyond me. Woody may very well get fired and everybody here screaming for his head will be jumping all over firing the next guy because he can't win with this lineup either. I hope that I am very wrong in that estimation if Woody is fired and I will be the first to say I was wrong if I am proven wrong but I think you all are going to realize that Woody is the least of the problems with this team as constructed today. LMAO, I knew this was coming. You amaze me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Yep, and that's not all that difficult to achieve as your history has proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pound4pound Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Indiana wins becuase they play to their strengths. That team doesn't have an atheltic bone in its collective body but they can all flat out shoot. So what does O'Brien do, he backs Tinsley down on the smaller PG, waits for the help to come and hits the open white guy for a three. Indiana is the perfect example of what coaching can do to help an organization maximize its talent. Last year, these stiffs were trying to take their man off the dribble with no success. That is why when we all know the roster isn't perfect - we still expect to play to our strengths. We do a fairly good job at that on the defensive end by switching on every pick and roll. We are similar in size and shooting ability, undersized on the front court but athletic, so this works to our advantage on d. On the offensive end however, we slow the ball down to negate our athleticism, we isolate the only guy that can shoot on our team while the rest of the non shooters wait for the double. You can defend Woody all you want but this is why we all have a problem with him. Couple that with the fact he hasn't shown the ability to draw up a play in a time out. When is the last time he drew up anything more than get Joe the ball and let him force a shot with two people on him? I would rather have Drew coaching this team - he cannot do any worse than NOTHING on the offensive end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 I'm enjoying the debate on this thread. One is basically arguing that Woodson is bad, but BK is totally incompetent. The other is arguing that BK is poor but Woody is ridiculously awful. To repeat my last post about 25 threads ago, we should give everyone their pink slip, and then hire the most able assistant GM in San Antonio as our new GM, and turn the entire organization over to the new man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukegotgame Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Quote: Yep, and that's not all that difficult to achieve as your history has proven. LMAO is that the best you could do? Anyway go back to being a mindless sheep and follow the heard while making 100 posts a day. I will continue reading your posts and laughing my ass off at your lack of basketball intelligence and homerism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 I think it was the Charlotte game, or maybe the game before Detroit when we ran an excellent play out of the timeout to get AJ the ball directly under the basket when he got fouled. I'm not saying Woody is perfect or even close to it, but I realize that firing him now will accomplish nothing because there isn't anyone better suited to come in and run this team for the rest of the year that is available. I could see Larry Brown but there's not a chance in hell he would come here if we fired Woody. If we were going to make a move it should have been this past offseason when Adelman and Stan Van Gundy were available. What's the best we could hope for now, using Drew as the interim coach? Maybe he would be better but I highly doubt he would be better this year. You guys that want him gone so bad because of his substitutions and doghouse also have no idea whether that is his choice or if it's been mandated. Is it a coincidence that Zaza and Lue all of the sudden got healthy and started playing regularly the month before the trading deadline? It could be a coincidence, or it could be BK saying that he needs to prove those guys are healthy and capable of contributing so that he can move them in a trade. Nobody here can convince me that Woody is dumb enough to play guys who even people on an internet message board can see make us a lesser team. Basic survival instincts would tell him this his job is on the line and that he should play the guys that give him the best chance of winning and when he doesn't do that even though he should I have a difficult time believing it's his choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Oh, I'm the mindless sheep? That seems odd considering I am the only one defending Woody rather than going with the herd and wanting him fired. Perhaps you should finish high school before you try using expressions that are beyond your comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusBoyIsBack Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Im sick of people blaming BK. If we were a running team we would have at least 10 more wins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmooveTheFuture Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Quote: Im sick of people blaming BK. If we were a running team we would have at least 10 more wins Dude bk is too blame I dont care if you wanna accept that or not. Any time you pass on 2 back 2 back Rookie of the years and your team is still looking for franchise pg 4 years into the rebuild process you are to blame.The Hawks still have no true franchise point guard or center. Guarnteing a bum like Shelden Williams you are going to take him 5th overall without ever working him has to be one of the worst moves in sports history. The guy flat out sucks balls. Why is BK the only gm i know of that cant ever talk to the media or fans about the problems he hides behind the turmoil and he is one of the main reason this team has been so bad for so long. His awful moves and lack of moves is what is hurting this franchise along with one of the worst coaches in the NBA right now its mind boggling how Woodson and Bk still have a job right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yardbird Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Late to the game, but I'll join you Dolfan. I think Woody has played anyone who has produced on a relatively consistent basis. When the team has a mandate to make the playoffs and the coach's job hangs in the balance, it's unlikely that he'll trust a rookie point guard who is playing inconsistently. If Acie takes care of the ball and gives the team a better chance of winning than AJ, which he has done lately but did not in the not too distant past, Woody will play him ahead of AJ (as shown earlier in the season before Acie's confidence-robbing injury and AJ's hissy fit followed by solid play). If Shelden looks like he has a clue (I don't think his play has been better than ZaZa, who is taller and occasionally mixes it up on the offensive boards, much needed on this team) and helps rather than hurts the team when he's on the floor, he'll earn minutes that Woody will give him. Mario? A great hustle guy, but I don't see anyone getting minutes that should be lowered for him. Everyone bashes Lue, but he's often the best offense we've got when Joe is off, as has been the case most of the season. He does pound the ball and render others useless, but he also hits big shots regularly, a skill sorely missing on this team. Salim? I'd love if he'd produce, but I watch every game and I've seen nothing this year (and little in previous years) to warrant anymore than the DNP-Coaches Decisions he's been getting. I had hoped that BK could convert some of these players, like Shelden (who I think will be solid, but nowhere near worth #5) into contributors through trades, but the fact is that the team is poorly constructed, and starter quality PGs and Cs won't be had for anyone we have in backup roles. That only happens for the Lakers, and I can't imagine that we didn't offer Memphis better current players than LA, we just couldn't give them expiring contracts they liked. I'm afraid we're stuck with the only players likely to bring back needed value in a trade being JJ, JSmoove, or Horford, and teams looking to steal JChill, Shelden, Acie or Marvin in unfavorable trades (including sign and trades for trash if we threaten to match offers to RFAs) or by testing our owners ability to match offers to RFAs when the players become RFAs. Scary, but more a GM/owner problem than coaching. Woody isn't the best, but for most of his 4 years, he's gotten good effort out of these players. I think he'd do better elsewhere at least as much as Shelden, Salim & Co. would. We may get a chance to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yardbird Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 I don't see Woody slowing the team down. Anyone notice that we don't run when Joe brings the ball up or gets it early in the possession? He rarely participates in the break, it's more Chills, Acie, AJ, Horford and Marvin. Joe's style is half court, he often slows up to assess the D, allowing them to establish position. You can't run against a set defense. I love Joe for what he brings, but running isn't it. It looks to me like Woody wants defense and rebounds so we can start the fast break and run with an advantage. If you run into a set defense, you give a charge or otherwise turn the ball over. Off a defensive stop and rebound, we have the advantage against an unbalanced D. Seems sound in theory, but players must execute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walter Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Quote: but I realize that firing him now will accomplish nothing because there isn't anyone better suited to come in and run this team for the rest of the year that is available. This is incorrect. 1) It is VERY important that we assess these players under another coach, any coach, if we are to better assess their value without the influence of Woody. 2) One of the reasons Woody was hired was that because BK was slow as molasses all the other coaches had been hired before him leaving us fewer options. Firing a coach even to hire a mere interim coach allows us to at least talk to all the newest coaching candidates before a host of other teams fire their coach. 3) Sometimes change is good for change's sake. I believe after 3.75 years of Woody that can easily be said. W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pound4pound Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 That was the play where Horford found AJ under the glass against the Bobbies. That was a busted play becuase Joe was covered. IF woody drew that play up then the first option was to get the ball to your 6 foot 2 point guard under the glass or have Al Horford take a 20 foot shot. Either option sucks and isn't NBA coaching - or even college coaching. IF Woody saw it that way it would have been the first time. The sad truth is, we lose most of our games in the fourth quarter becuase we are simply out coached. Most coaches rest their stars so they can be fresh for the final 7 minutes. We do not. Most coaches draw up plays in time outs that will get someone an open look at the basket. We do not. Most teams undertand the limitations of their players and try to mitigate to those limitations - not expose them. We do not 75% of the NBA game is the talent on the floor. 25% is how you prepare, coach, and manage the time that talent is on the floor. Playoff teams have 100% going for them. We do not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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