EVERY HAWKSQUAWK THREAD

[jhay610]

No matter how any HS thread starts, whether it is on the recent game or the possibility of inclement weather, it will ultimately divert, converge and boil down to this: Marvin Williams sucks. Or wait, no he doesn't he's just young and he'll develop. No he's had 3 years in the league and he's no better. But wait, his EFF says this, no his Roland Rating says that blah blah blah.....

Get over it. CP3 may be a hall of famer, but what he will not be is a Hawk. We blew the pick. Let's move forward with our lives. It isn't healthy for a group of otherwise sound mind to be so heavily fixated on one young man's sac.

Thank you for your time.

[mrhonline]

I've been trying to get this kind of logic to spread for three years. It's not happening.

People here really think they're having "intelligent discussions."

[jhay610]

but u have to recognize the law of diminishing returns at work here...you can't have an intelligent discussion if you are saying the same thing over, and over, and over....

[exodus]

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but u have to recognize the law of diminishing returns at work here...you can't have an intelligent discussion if you are saying the same thing over, and over, and over....

Welcome to Hawksquawk.

[Diesel]

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I've been trying to get this kind of logic to spread for three years. It's not happening.

People here really think they're having "intelligent discussions."

Just because you disagree with the premise doesn't mean that the conversation lacks intelligence? Why do you feel the need to insult people to make your point? That's really a sign of "lack of intelligence".

What you see on this board and with most Hawks fans about Marvin is a natural backdraft.

Marvin was painted as a superstar and possible savior for this team. Any time you have 5 Sfs and you draft one more with the 2nd pick overall... he must be special... That's weather you state it or not.

Well, it's been 3 years... and Marvin is making the easiest position in the game look like it's unplayable.

Now it's in the subconscious of knowledgeable fans that we gave up a lot for Marvin.

Let's forget CP3 and Deron.

Diaw could have played Sf better.

Al Harrington could have played Sf better.

Childress probably does play Sf better.

These are the things that knowledgeable Hawks fans see. So what do you suggest... that we just keep quiet and watch Marvin continually f--- up?

OK..

Let's do it.

Let's declare tommorow "intelligent talk day". NO discussions about Marvin Williams whatsoever on March 26...

Would that really make this place better?

No.

It will just silence the knowledgeable majority.... sorta like not talking about the dead in the war!

[mrhonline]

Thanks for proving my point, D.

You've had that same speech locked and loaded for three years now. We get it.

Cue Ex's picture of dead horse...

[Diesel]

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Thanks for proving my point, D.

You've had that same speech locked and loaded for three years now. We get it.

Cue Ex's picture of dead horse...

I think you've missed my point looking for your point.

My point has nothing to do with Marvin other than the fact that there is some real Marvin dislike on this board... so you can never truly quiet the pundits.

Your point is every thread breaks down to Marvin... However, didn't your thread start with Marvin?

How can you talk about what's causing all of this when you don't want to talk about the cause??

That's truly an idiotic view of things H and for you to believe that I have proved your point proves one thing...

You don't even understand your own thread!

You can't ask the question "why does every thread break down to an attack or a defense on Marvin?" then when somebody attempts to answer the question.. you take it as an attack or a defense on Marvin....

[jhay610]

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My point has nothing to do with Marvin other than the fact that there is some real Marvin dislike on this board...

Which is really just misguided anger at management that has become an inappropriate/sad/masochistic obsession with a kid who did nothing but enter his name into the draft. If you guys want to obsess about something and get all masochistic then start posting 400 threads per day about Woodson and Billy Knight, the people who brought Marvin here. I would say anti-marvin threads outnumber anti-woody threads by about 4-1 and anti-BK threads by about 6,000,000-1.

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so you can never truly quiet the pundits.

what? 1st of all that didn't make sense, secondly the word pundit is defined as "a learned person, expert, or authority".

I think it's safe to say that those are an extremely rare find on this board. I mean I love the site but I don't think I would classify many squawkers as "pundits". Most view the action through their own skewed prism in which their favorite players do nothing wrong and their least favorites do nothing right. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. We are all hawks fans, and as such, are emotionally involved with the team. Where both emotion and logic are involved, the former is the greater force.

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Your point is every thread breaks down to Marvin... However, didn't your thread start with Marvin?

A pretty ridiculous statement that in a way proves my point. Isn't it a prerequisite on HS that every thread has the word "Marvin" in it somewhere?

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How can you talk about what's causing all of this when you don't want to talk about the cause??

Again, misguided anger/obsession/masochism. I am more than happy to address the cause, and it isn't Marvin Williams. It is not his fault that management cannot evaluate talent and bought into the hyperbole machine that is the media. For some reason MW was the consensus #2 on that board, and management had every opportunity and resource with which to make an informed and correct decision. BK's fetish for long, athletic swingmen rendered him incapable of making the correct move for this franchise, despite the fact that we had already accumulated a surplus of players with Marvin's build/alleged skill set.

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That's truly an idiotic view of things H

This is my thread, H essentially co-signed it.

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and for you to believe that I have proved your point proves one thing...

You don't even understand your own thread!

I don't understand most of your post.

[jhay610]

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Thanks for proving my point, D.

You've had that same speech locked and loaded for three years now. We get it.

Cue Ex's picture of dead horse...

I've only been here a couple months and I've already seen it a few times myself...

[exodus]

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Thanks for proving my point, D.

You've had that same speech locked and loaded for three years now. We get it.

Cue Ex's picture of dead horse...

We should probably make another one with Diesel's name on it.

[Diesel]

You can't ask the question "why does every thread break down to an attack or a defense on Marvin?" then when somebody attempts to answer the question.. you take it as an attack or a defense on Marvin....

This point is not really about misguided anger at management...

Sure management picked Marvin...

But at some point, you have to live up to the Hype.

I think 1/2 of the Marvin hate would go away if Marvin "looked like" he gave a damn.

Is that management's fault??

I said "looked like" and what I mean by that is put in the extra work over the summer. Developed a move of some kind. Gave 100% on the floor. Did more than just wait for an open Jump Shot.

When it comes to those things... that's all Marvin.

That has very little to do with Chris Paul's success.

That has very little to do with JChillz effort.

That has very little to do with Smoove's development.

That has very little to do with BK's confidence in Marvin.

It has everything to do with Marvin's potential and aggressiveness.

Jhay if you graduated from Harvard as a Rhodes Scholar...

Was paid 240 Million dollars a year to be a CEO of a fortune 5 company.

And you spent the first 3 years of your job making mistake after mistake....

Whom should the company hold accountable?

The Rhodes Scholar Committee?

The Company who hired you?

The employees who work under you?

All the other fortune 5 companies who "aren't playing nice"?

Your 10th grade Social Studies teacher?

[jhay610]

With all due respect, I already read this post and the back and forth that ensued from the thread that occurred in the fall of last year (Sept, if memory serves) and was rehashed within the last couple of days here on the squawk.

I've said my piece and God knows you've said yours several times over. Perhaps in making a site-wide suggestion (it seems there is nothing else to talk about besides u-know-who) I was a little ambitious. I think I will abstain, or at least be more selective, in the marvin vs. HS threads that I participate in going forward.

It just seemed to be a little excessive to me, but hey, different strokes for different folks. A disclaimer, however, all this *itchin' won't do a dam thing. It's not like Marv, Mike, or Billy are on HS every day seeing what the fans are saying.

If you don't like it, don't go to the games. Don't watch them on tv. Or just spend half of your waking hours on HS, I guess it beats shouting at a wall or something...

[jhay610]

but here is my response anyway lol...

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Sure management picked Marvin...

But at some point, you have to live up to the Hype.

We need to come to grips with the very likely possibility that he won't and move on with our lives.

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I

think 1/2 of the Marvin hate would go away if Marvin "looked like" he gave a damn.

maybe so.

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Is that management's fault??

That falls on pre-draft evaluation and post-draft coaching. If you don't think you can draw the intangibles that it takes to be successful out of a person then you shouldn't select them.

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Jhay if you graduated from Harvard as a Rhodes Scholar...

Was paid 240 Million dollars a year to be a CEO of a fortune 5 company.

And you spent the first 3 years of your job making mistake after mistake....

Whom should the company hold accountable?

The Rhodes Scholar Committee?

The Company who hired you?

The employees who work under you?

All the other fortune 5 companies who "aren't playing nice"?

Your 10th grade Social Studies teacher?

Easy. The company should hold themselves, and more specifically the evaluators/interviewers they set in place that selected me accountable, and the compensation committee that determined my salary that I did not justifiably earn.

The company is the one writing the checks, so they are the ones taking the losses. By offering me position of CEO they are entering into an employment agreement with me. They can't sue me for my wages if I am not performing. I am not bound by any legal or moral code to do a good job, or to even do the best job that I can. I am simply rendering a service. If they feel that I am hurting the company or that I am not providing the quality of service that meets or exceeds the standards they hold for the position, then they should fire me.

I bet they would, too, and I bet they wouldn't assimilate a convention of shortsighted shareholders [hs'ers] to debate and vote on it, because upper management is ultimately in charge of and culpable for the financial performance of the company. If their hire doesn't do a good job then that reflects on the quality of their own work. In short, that's their ass. That is why BK and MW should be getting 100% of the backlash for this, not Marvin Williams.

[Diesel]

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That falls on pre-draft evaluation and post-draft coaching. If you don't think you can draw the intangibles that it takes to be successful out of a person then you shouldn't select them.

We're not talking intangibles here. We're talking about "want to". I'm no defender of BK, but it's not BK's fault that Marvin lacks "want to". However, you seem committed to suggest that it rests on BK's ability to evaluate talent.

BK picked Smoove.

Smoove was evaluated by a draft expert (pundit) as being the biggest bust in the draft.

However, even though Smoove had lots of potential but also lots of missing "intangibles"... Smoove had a great amount of "want to".

R U saying that Woody is at fault for Marvin's lack of want to. I guess so if you blame the company.

The truth is that in your evaluation, you ignore personal responsibility.

Anybody on any day can decide that they're just not going to put in the effort to do what needs to be done... And really there's no way to prognosticate "want to". If you show up at your job tommorow... and out of the blue, you decide that you'd rather keep up with Hawksquawk than Work... And you miss deadline after Deadline... That's not the companies fault. You made a decision that you would loaf. That you would be a slacker. That's not something that anybody can evaluate. Not easily. Especially when you have a trackrecord of producing. So, no, I'm not blaming HR. I'm not blaming your boss. I'm putting the blame directly on your shoulders. Personal responsibility and accountibility my friend!

[BusBoyIsBack]

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No matter how any HS thread starts, whether it is on the recent game or the possibility of inclement weather, it will ultimately divert, converge and boil down to this: Marvin Williams sucks. Or wait, no he doesn't he's just young and he'll develop. No he's had 3 years in the league and he's no better. But wait, his EFF says this, no his Roland Rating says that blah blah blah.....

Get over it. CP3 may be a hall of famer, but what he will not be is a Hawk. We blew the pick. Let's move forward with our lives. It isn't healthy for a group of otherwise sound mind to be so heavily fixated on one young man's sac.

Thank you for your time.

This is like telling people on RealGM/ESPN to stop making Kobe vs Lebron threads and just enjoy both players who will be HOFers.

IOW, it's not going to happen.

But you're dead on. It doesn't matter how many times a day CP3's name, Deron Williams, Bogut, Bynum, whoever, it isn't going to change the fact that we took Marvin Williams.

And all we can do is hope for the best. And in all honesty, when you consider the fact that Marvin Williams was a guy who they said was going to take 3-4 years to develop, I'd think I'd wait to see what he did in his 3rd year as a starter before saying he's maxed out.

[jhay610]

Ok so it sounds like you want to absolve BK and Woody for some responsibility and put it on MW. Well, regardless of how you feel about whose fault it is that Marvin seems to lack "want to" I could watch 5 on 5 or an individual work out with him and within 5 minutes tell you the kid is not a superstar.

Small forward is an easy position to quantify/evaluate. Can he shoot? Can he run? Can he dribble? Good footwork? Explosiveness?

Marvin is lacking in a lot of these qualities, and NBA talent evaluators should be able to see this.

Smoove and Marv is apples and oranges. Smoove makes up for deficiencies in some areas (ball skills) because he is superlative in others (explosiveness). You can develop ball skills and shooting, but you can't develop athleticism.

If Smoove was a bust u wouldn't have people blowing up squawk all day because he's a 17 pick not a 2. A CEO is more visible than a director on the board as a 2 is more visible than a 17. A #2 pick doesn't come around often. So Billy made a nice pick in Smith. How bout Speedy getting a fat contract, Sheldon at 5, Chill at 7, and Marvin at 2. These are bad picks when there was significantly more talented players available, including a possible HOF point.

Are we supposed to forget this because BK drafted Smoove and made a nice trade in Bibb? These are not indictments on the players, this is an epidemic of unchecked piss-poor mismanagement. To single out Marvin is to absolve BK of his role in concocting this mess. The problem is not Marvin, it's much greater than Marvin, and until it is addressed we can expect more of the same.

[Diesel]

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Ok so it sounds like you want to absolve BK and Woody for some responsibility and put it on MW. Well, regardless of how you feel about whose fault it is that Marvin seems to lack "want to" I could watch 5 on 5 or an individual work out with him and within 5 minutes tell you the kid is not a superstar.

Small forward is an easy position to quantify/evaluate. Can he shoot? Can he run? Can he dribble? Good footwork? Explosiveness?

Marvin is lacking in a lot of these qualities, and NBA talent evaluators should be able to see this.

Smoove and Marv is apples and oranges. Smoove makes up for deficiencies in some areas (ball skills) because he is superlative in others (explosiveness). You can develop ball skills and shooting, but you can't develop athleticism.

If Smoove was a bust u wouldn't have people blowing up squawk all day because he's a 17 pick not a 2. A CEO is more visible than a director on the board as a 2 is more visible than a 17. A #2 pick doesn't come around often. So Billy made a nice pick in Smith. How bout Speedy getting a fat contract, Sheldon at 5, Chill at 7, and Marvin at 2. These are bad picks when there was significantly more talented players available, including a possible HOF point.

Are we supposed to forget this because BK drafted Smoove and made a nice trade in Bibb? These are not indictments on the players, this is an epidemic of unchecked piss-poor mismanagement

. To single out Marvin is to absolve BK of his role in concocting this mess. The problem is not Marvin, it's much greater than Marvin, and until it is addressed we can expect more of the same.

I see the truth has come out...

It's not that the board is unintelligent and are converting their BK hate into Marvin hate. The truth is that you have lots of BK hate.

Like I said, I'm not BK defender.

I agree. He has made some Bad Picks and Marvin was the king of the bad picks. But the problem with just blindly saying "it's not Marvin's fault" is when you look at his potential.

Much like Tim Thomas... Marvin has perfect size. Good stroke on his shot. Average ball handling. Some explosiveness. And these are things that you can't teach. If Smoove had Marvin's stroke or ball handling, Smoove would be the most dangerous player in the game.

But Marvin fails in that area where he actually has control...

Desire. Aggressiveness.

Marvin plays Sf, it's his 3rd year and he still has the deer in headlights look.

He can't compare to Smoove is desire.

He can't compare to Chillz in aggressiveness.

Chillz has less natural skill than Marvin, but Chillz more than makes up for it by playing aggressively. Working the baseline the way that Chillz does requires great aggressiveness... But ultimately, he's going to have to go up with the bigs. He will probably get fouled. However, he has to still take it strong.

Another Josh. Josh Powell... Didn't play enough college ball. Didn't master the skills that Marvin supposedly has. He makes up with effort. This guy plays Center like he's 7'2.

I can't 100% blame BK. Nobody knew that Marvin would be this lazy.

And that's basically what it is.

[Seano]

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A disclaimer, however, all this *itchin' won't do a dam thing. It's not like Marv, Mike, or Billy are on HS every day seeing what the fans are saying.

Marvin, Mike or Billy might not read the Squawk (or they might, who knows?), but at least one of the Hawks ownership group has posted here in the past, indicating that he's aware of the place at least, and as to whether he's a regular reader- again, who knows? I can't remember who it was (was it Gearon Jr.?), but he posted here prior to the Hawksquawk Night at Phillips Arena, and I believe some posters from here actually got the opportunity to sit and chat with him during the game that night.

I know he wanted to meet Diesel. He mentioned that specifically on this board, and I'm serious as a heart-attack about that. I don't know whether Diesel made it to that game though....

[thefloydian]

What else is there to do on a sports team's messageboard but [censored]? Are we supposed to be drawing up plays or something?

[VarsitySlacker]

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A disclaimer, however, all this *itchin' won't do a dam thing. It's not like Marv, Mike, or Billy are on HS every day seeing what the fans are saying.

Marvin, Mike or Billy might not read the Squawk (or they might, who knows?), but at least one of the Hawks ownership group has posted here in the past, indicating that he's aware of the place at least, and as to whether he's a regular reader- again, who knows? I can't remember who it was (was it Gearon Jr.?), but he posted here prior to the Hawksquawk Night at Phillips Arena, and I believe some posters from here actually got the opportunity to sit and chat with him during the game that night.

I know he wanted to meet Diesel. He mentioned that specifically on this board, and I'm serious as a heart-attack about that. I don't know whether Diesel made it to that game though....

1) It was Bruce Levenson.

2) He absolutely was serious. He walked up and down the aisle that night yelling out to our section, "where's Diesel?" Diesel was nowhere to be found.