Diesel's ten overrated people in Sports...

[jhay610]

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Why is dude a beast? Is it because he plays on a team with no other marquee players?

Why is this a strike against him? It would seem to me that makes his accomplishments (07 Finals!?!?) that much more impressive. Let me turn that question on its head: Where would Cleveland be w/o him? Maybe hoping for the best bounce of the balls with SEA and MIA?

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Is it because he's strong and can dunk? Dude was shooting 25% for the series before last night...

And that is largely because Mike Brown is one of the few coaches in the league with less of a clue than Woodson. They don't run anything. They just stand around and watch Lebron try to put 3 guys in the cup. Boston is running guys at him all the time, just like Detroit did last year. Did you happen to catch Game 5 against the Pistons in last year's playoffs? Sure, his J is hit or miss, but even when he's off he is still helping them win. When he's on he is unstoppable.

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Is that beastly?? Dude cries to the ref all freakin game long?

What marquee player does not whine to the refs all game long? Have you ever seen Tim Freaking Duncan (the biggest whiner in sports)? KG? Paul Pierce? Sam Cassell? Paul Pierce? Basically every Celtic? Manu? Basically every Spur? This is true across the board, yet these teams (esp. the Spurs) are revered.

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If you stripped both players of their hype and league love.. give me Joe Johnson over Lebron every day.

Now that is just a ridiculous statement, even for you. I love JJ as much as the next man, but come on Diesel.

JJ = 22/4/6 Lebron = 30/8/7?? I'm sorry all the "hype" in the league won't get you those numbers.

[dlpin]

Lebron is vastly overrated. Yes, its possible to be top 2 or 3 in the league and overrated. Why? The guy is mentioned in the same breath as Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson!

Its not his fault because most active players are overrated. If you look at the media and the talking heads nowadays, you'd think this is the NBA golden age, as most people treat Kobe, Lebron, Duncan and Shaq as 4 of the top 5 players ever, when that is not even remotely the case.

The sad thing is that Lebron has bought into the hype and become complacent. 5 years in the league and still the same problems: awful shooting and no post up game. You'd think hed work on those things by now.

[dlpin]

I strongly disagree that McNabb is overrated. Just look back to his years before his body started breaking down.

Just look at his first seasons: eagles was always a contender, even though his widereceivers were torrance small, charles johnson, james trash, todd pinkston, freddie mitchell... The only time McNabb had a #1 receiver was with TO, all others would not even be a #3 on average teams.

[jhay610]

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Its not his fault because most active players are overrated. If you look at the media and the talking heads nowadays, you'd think this is the NBA golden age, as most people treat Kobe, Lebron, Duncan and Shaq as 4 of the top 5 players ever, when that is not even remotely the case.

Regardless of what you think about current players and their basketball skills, the bottom line is that players are bigger, stronger and faster than they have ever been before; that much is indisputable. The game is played a lot faster than it used to be.

There is no way Wilt scores 100 in today's game. Oscar does not average a triple double today. Bill Russell is an undersized center today. That's not to say these players wouldn't be effective today, but there is no way they would be as dominant.

The only person that could compare to Wilt in stature during their heydays was Russell. Russell would be at a severe size disadvantage at the 5 in today's game, while Wilt would be about average.

Lebron is probably overrated due to the fact that he is super-hyped by the media, but he is still a fantastic player. If Lebron had played in Oscar's era he would average 40/15/10 no sweat. There just wasn't the same size and athleticism across the league as there is now.

[Diesel]

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JJ over Lebron? Wow.

Who are your worst 5 players who are better than Lebron? (I assume your total list is a lot longer than 5 if you have JJ above him.)

I don't quite understand your question.

but 5 players better than Lebron:

1. Kobe

2. KG

3. Paul

4. Howard

5. Duncan.

Now here's the thing. I think Lebron gets a lot of credit but Lebron has never had to share the spotlight with another Marquee player. I don't know if he could. His shot is streaky. He takes 22 shots per game

Just for reference,

Joe shoots 18 shots per game

Dirk shoots 17 shots per game

Wade shoots 18 shots per game

Most of his points come on dunks or wide open threes. There's no midrange to Lebron. He has never been paired with a true ball handler (floor general). Plus the league loves Lebron. He's good for ratings. He gets fouls and he cries for fouls all day long.

I think it was j who said what superstar doesn't cry for fouls all game long...

Uhm.. Duncan. JJ. KG. Paul. Howard.

It's hard to watch Cleveland play because James is going to cry everytime he's touched and every time he touches somebody. And many times, the refs turn their eyes away.

[dlpin]

First of all, I dont think you can compare players of different eras like that. If you want to put Lebron in the 60s, you would have to take into account how he would be with the training/nutrition and so on of that era, and vice versa if you want to bring players from that era to today. Just as you cant compare the listed height of players back then and now, as now they are measured in sneakers and so on.

But in any case, we dont have to look so far back: magic, bird and jordan are far and away better than anyone in the game today, and yet youd think this is the league's golden age, not the 80s...

Lebron is certainly top 5 in the league today, but has quite a lot to improve to become as good as they say he is.

[AHF]

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The only person that could compare to Wilt in stature during their heydays was Russell. Russell would be at a severe size disadvantage at the 5 in today's game, while Wilt would be about average.

Take your top thirteen centers in the NBA this decade (i.e., this era of bigger, stronger athletes) and I'll put them against these Wilt and this dozen guys that faced off against Wilt:

Wilt Chamberlein 7'1'' +

Kareem Abdul Jabbar 7' 2"

Walt Bellamy 7'

Dave Cowens 6'9''

Artis Gilmore 7' 3"

Bob Lanier 6'11''

Clyde Lovellette 6'9''

Jerry Lucas 6'8''

Bob McAdoo 6'9''

Willis Reed 6' 10"

Bill Russell 6' 10"

Nate Thurmond 7'

Wes Unseld 6'7''

vs.

FILL IN YOUR TOP 13 CENTERS FROM 2000-2008

[jhay610]

Not really a fair comparison at all as your list is compiled of the best of 4 decades while limiting mine to the past 8 years.

I think you have missed my point also.

If you looked at my earlier post that you replied to, I alluded to the fact that we can argue who the better basketball players are until our fingers fall off.

I was simply saying that today, from spots 1-5 (esp. spots 1-3, i.e. 6'8" and > small forwards) , guys are bigger and stronger than they have ever been. The original thread was about overrated people in sports, and Lebron James was brought up. I am not arguing who the greatest centers are of all time and I am not saying that Lebron James is one of the great players of all time.

My greater point was that Lebron should not be discredited just because he is a physical specimen. Just because he is unstoppable at driving at the basket that does not make him less effective of a basketball player, or less worthy of the proper recognition. He may not have the sweetest stroke or the best ball skills, but he is a heck of an athlete and that makes him very good at what he does.

He shouldn't be penalized for that.

[AHF]

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Not really a fair comparison at all as your list is compiled of the best of 4 decades while limiting mine to the past 8 years.

Mine is the best of Wilt's career - not four decades.

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I think you have missed my point also.

If you looked at my earlier post that you replied to, I alluded to the fact that we can argue who the better basketball players are until our fingers fall off.

I was simply saying that today, from spots 1-5 (esp. spots 1-3, i.e. 6'8" and > small forwards) , guys are bigger and stronger than they have ever been. The original thread was about overrated people in sports, and Lebron James was brought up. I am not arguing who the greatest centers are of all time and I am not saying that Lebron James is one of the great players of all time.

My greater point was that Lebron should not be discredited just because he is a physical specimen. Just because he is unstoppable at driving at the basket that does not make him less effective of a basketball player, or less worthy of the proper recognition. He may not have the sweetest stroke or the best ball skills, but he is a heck of an athlete and that makes him very good at what he does.

He shouldn't be penalized for that.

I totally agree on Lebron. I just don't think players have changed as much as most people do and think you have probably underrated the guys Wilt went against. You probably weren't thinking that Wilt played 4 years with Kareem, etc. or that he played against mulitple HOF big men 7' and larger.

It is just an flash topic for me because on RealGM you constantly see guys saying Wilt wouldn't dominate today or Bird would get dominated today because of his athleticism, etc. and I don't buy it at all. (Nique didn't dominate Bird and how many guys today are as athletic as Nique?) We are not in a good era for centers, IMO, and while the older guys wouldn't put up the stats today that they did then that is less about their ability to dominate today and more about the game just being very different today, IMO.

[dlpin]

I don't think anyone is discrediting Lebron, or denying he is one of the top players today. But c'mon, you cant watch a cavs game nowadays without people discussing if he is the new Jordan or the new Magic. Being overrated doesnt mean he isnt very, very good.

[jhay610]

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I don't think anyone is discrediting Lebron, or denying he is one of the top players today.

I definitely think Diesel, the originator of the thread, is clearly discrediting Lebron. I agree, though, we should definitely withhold anointing him as the next anything. He's only 23.

[jhay610]

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Not really a fair comparison at all as your list is compiled of the best of 4 decades while limiting mine to the past 8 years.

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Mine is the best of Wilt's career - not four decades.

Yes I understand that but the prime career years of those various players were spread over the 60's, 70's and 80's. For instance, I am aware that Wilt squared off against Kareem, but at that point Wilt was in his twilight and Kareem was an up and comer. That was what I was pointing to in my response. I don't think that 8 years was a big enough sample size to reflect that. Wilt played in the league from 59-73.

At any rate, I don't think there is any doubt that Wilt is better than any center of this era (say from the 90's to now) except maybe shaq. Hakeem was damn good too, though.

I just don't think it would be possible for him to score 100 today. As you said, the game has changed, but also, the wear and tear on the body is greater because u r going to face size every night. Although Wilt played against substantial competition over his career, it just wasn't there night in and night out like it is today, IMO.

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It is just an flash topic for me because on RealGM you constantly see guys saying Wilt wouldn't dominate today or Bird would get dominated today because of his athleticism, etc. and I don't buy it at all.

No that's silly. And Bird just retired in the early 90s. The game hasn't changed THAT much since then.

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We are not in a good era for centers, IMO

Definitely true. The golden age for centers is over. There just aren't that many exclusively back-to-the-basket type players anymore.

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and while the older guys wouldn't put up the stats today that they did then that is less about their ability to dominate today and more about the game just being very different today, IMO.

I think it's because of both, but moreso because the game has changed.

[AHF]

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Not really a fair comparison at all as your list is compiled of the best of 4 decades while limiting mine to the past 8 years.

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Mine is the best of Wilt's career - not four decades.

Yes I understand that but the prime career years of those various players were spread over the 60's, 70's and 80's. For instance, I am aware that Wilt squared off against Kareem, but at that point Wilt was in his twilight and Kareem was an up and comer. That was what I was pointing to in my response. I don't think that 8 years was a big enough sample size to reflect that. Wilt played in the league from 59-73.

Generally I would agree with that but if the premise of the argument is that players are more physically evolved than they were in the 70s (bigger, faster, stronger, etc.) then I think an 8 year period versus a 14 year period is pretty reasonable.

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At any rate, I don't think there is any doubt that Wilt is better than any center of this era (say from the 90's to now) except maybe shaq. Hakeem was damn good too, though.

I just don't think it would be possible for him to score 100 today. As you said, the game has changed, but also, the wear and tear on the body is greater because u r going to face size every night. Although Wilt played against substantial competition over his career, it just wasn't there night in and night out like it is today, IMO.

That is one thing I definitely disagree with. In Wilt's era he played much higher competition night to night because there wasn't expansion. I randomly picked the 1964-65 season. Consider that he played one of the following every night:

Bill Russell - HOF

Jerry Lucas - HOF

Willis Reed - HOF

Rudy Larusso

Bob Pettit (matched up against Wilt when they played) - HOF

Walt Bellamy - HOF

Ray Scott

Nate Thurmond - HOF

Now consider the awesome matchups that Shaq faced this year night in and night out (the actual starters he faced):

Game 1 - Antonio McDyess

Game 2 - Jeff Foster

Game 3 - Primo Brezec

Game 4 - Francisco Elson

Game 5 - Amare Stoudemire

Game 6 - Eddy Curry

Game 7 - Primo Brezec

Game 8 - Kurt Thomas

Game 9 - Kendrick Perkins

Game 10 - Jamaal Magloire

etc.

One word: Expansion (9 teams to 32)

[Diesel]

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I don't think anyone is discrediting Lebron, or denying he is one of the top players today.

I definitely think Diesel, the originator of the thread, is clearly discrediting Lebron. I agree, though, we should definitely withhold anointing him as the next anything. He's only 23.

I am discrediting Lebron in the sense of saying he's not on Jordan's Level. That's laughable. However, as far as the NBA and the Media are concerned, they've done a good job of building him up to what he is right now.

[Diesel]

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It is just an flash topic for me because on RealGM you constantly see guys saying Wilt wouldn't dominate today or Bird would get dominated today because of his athleticism, etc. and I don't buy it at all. (Nique didn't dominate Bird and how many guys today are as athletic as Nique?) We are not in a good era for centers, IMO, and while the older guys wouldn't put up the stats today that they did then that is less about their ability to dominate today and more about the game just being very different today, IMO.

Wait a minute though.

You have to have a honest talk about Wilt too. Honestly, Wilt could have been the most dominate player in the history of the game. BUT HONESTLY, it wasn't in him. Physically, Russell had no conceivable chance of matching up with Wilt but the truth of the matter is that Wilt was kinda soft. Love Wilt to death, but Wilt was one of those players whoose personality stopped him from being what he could be.

The real beast (and Wilt attested to this) was Kareem Jabbar. Now, Russell was MEAN and he was a great shot blocker and this is why he has 11 rings. However, Kareem was just as mean and at the same time he had real true big man skills and an unstoppable shot!!! Kareem is probably the most disrespected player in the history of basketball. He should easily be everybody first pick.

But to the question would Wilt dominate?

Hell yeah. He would dominate this era but he was not the most dominate of his era.

[jhay610]

that's a good point....

[AHF]

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I don't think anyone is discrediting Lebron, or denying he is one of the top players today.

I definitely think Diesel, the originator of the thread, is clearly discrediting Lebron. I agree, though, we should definitely withhold anointing him as the next anything. He's only 23.

I am discrediting Lebron in the sense of saying he's not on Jordan's Level. That's laughable. However, as far as the NBA and the Media are concerned, they've done a good job of building him up to what he is right now.

The thing is that he is arguably ahead of Jordan at the same age. Think about where Jordan was at Lebron's age - years away from even making the playoffs.

That doesn't mean that Lebron will grow to reach Jordan's ceiling or that it is responsible for the media to constantly pretend he will but I do think the kid is already a top player and is doing it at a historically young age. What the future holds for him remains to be seen.

[Diesel]

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The thing is that he is arguably ahead of Jordan at the same age. Think about where Jordan was at Lebron's age - years away from even making the playoffs.

That doesn't mean that Lebron will grow to reach Jordan's ceiling or that it is responsible for the media to constantly pretend he will but I do think the kid is already a top player and is doing it at a historically young age. What the future holds for him remains to be seen.

Sorry AHF. The logic that you fail to see is that Jordan played against a much better band of players. I think Jordan was better than Lebron at this age. The problem is that Jordan was matched up against Bird and the Celtics, against THE BAD BOYS, against Dominque and the Hawks Every year. He had to "Pay his dues".

The toughest matchup that Lebron has had is.... These Pistons? And they got tired...

The thing is that Stern has changed the league since Jordan was Lebron's age.

Imagine Lebron playing against the Bad Boys?? As much as he cries to the refs now... could he have gotten off the floor when Mahorn, Buddha, Spider or Lambeer had laid into him?

You have to understand, to the detriment of the NBA, Jordan was the first individual player that ever superseeded the team philosophy of basketball. Before Jordan, it was teams. The original big three. The showtime Lakers. The 76ers. Names were pulled out of these great teams later... But now, you get these individual matchups instead of true team basketball. Moreover, a guy like Lebron can't be targetted the way Jordan was targetted.

When Jordan played the Knicks.. it was going to be some punishment dished out in that game. Ewing, Oakley, Mason, or Smith was going to lay the wood on Jordan. They took protecting the house seriously. Now you have a bunch of lazy guys who would let Lebron get anywhere he wants to go. The game has been watered down.

As far as getting to Jordan's level. Lebron is not competitive enough. He's competitive. He's no Marvin, but he's not competitive enough. The only player that I have seen that even gets to Jordan's level of competitiveness is Kobe. And Kobe's ego won't let him be better than Jordan. Kobe too, has yet to have humbling experiences like Jordan had.

[AHF]

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The thing is that he is arguably ahead of Jordan at the same age. Think about where Jordan was at Lebron's age - years away from even making the playoffs.

That doesn't mean that Lebron will grow to reach Jordan's ceiling or that it is responsible for the media to constantly pretend he will but I do think the kid is already a top player and is doing it at a historically young age. What the future holds for him remains to be seen.

Sorry AHF. The logic that you fail to see is that Jordan played against a much better band of players. I think Jordan was better than Lebron at this age. The problem is that Jordan was matched up against Bird and the Celtics, against THE BAD BOYS, against Dominque and the Hawks Every year. He had to "Pay his dues".

Actually, Jordan was competing against the 8th seeds in the East and losing at this age. At least Lebron made the NBA finals last year. Reasonable minds can disagree on an age-specific comparison. Jordan was thought to be a stats hog who put up numbers without winning anything at this point in his career.

[jhay610]

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The game has been watered down.

That is arguable. Playoff basketball had degenerated to a slugfest and had slowed to a crawling pace. If I want to see that I'll watch UFC. There are still hard fouls and physical play, it's just not a street fight anymore...

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Kobe too, has yet to have humbling experiences like Jordan had.

Ummm....Eagle Colorado anyone??? If that experience wasn't humbling then I don't know what would qualify.

The years since Shaq left have not been too successful for Kobe.

Oh, and Lebron looked pretty solid today in Game 7, in my opinion. Hard to overrate 45 points on a touch under 50% shooting. And he's 23!!! Lebron's NBA resume far outshines Jordan's at this point in their careers, I really don't even think that is questionable. Give him a break.