Guest Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 Why the East is still least By Chad Ford NBA Insider Send an Email to Chad Ford Friday, July 25 Updated: July 25 12:42 PM ET Chat with Chad Ford at 12 p.m. EDT today! While five teams in the West are busy building all-star teams, Jason Kidd is trying to build a dynasty of his own in the most unlikely of places -- the Eastern Conference. Kidd turned down a $90 million-plus offer from the Spurs to re-sign this summer with the Nets amid whispers that he was scared of the competition in the West. "I wouldn't have been scared to go to the West," Kidd said in his press conference Thursday. "Nobody scares me." Over the past two seasons, the Nets have played a total of 10 NBA Finals games. They've won only two of them. This year he expects that to change. Kidd says he believes that with a young core of Richard Jefferson and Kenyon Martin, the Nets play his style of basketball. "There's no better place. I feel my game fits and also my personality and everything else," Kidd said. "I just want to be on a winning team. There's no better way than to be a part of something you started [building] from the ground, to see it building at the end and to sit back and say. 'You know what? We accomplished something here.' " Alonzo Mourning Center New Jersey Nets Profile 2002-2003 SEASON STATISTICS GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT% - - - - - - It also won't hurt if the guy Kidd's bringing along for the ride, Alonzo Mourning, ends up returning to his old form. "It's a high risk, but sometimes you've got to put yourself out there to roll the dice," Kidd said. "I felt adding a piece like Zo could help us in the sense of it's somebody who has the same goal, and that's to win a championship. He's not here trying to get a new contract or trying to make the most money." With a lineup of Kidd, Kerry Kittles, Jefferson, Martin and Mourning, the Nets clearly are the team to beat in the East again. "They beat up on everyone in the East last season -- and that was without Zo," one rival GM told Insider. "If he's healthy, I think they have a great shot of giving the teams in the West a run. If he isn't -- and that's a big if -- I believe the East will be wide open again." Wide open is one way to look at it. The other is downright mediocrity. With the exception of the Nets and Pistons -- very few teams in the East have made the upgrades it's going to take to make a run at the title. Juwan Howard Power Forward Orlando Magic Profile 2002-2003 SEASON STATISTICS GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT% 77 18.4 7.6 3.0 .450 .803 The Magic added Juwan Howard, but without a star center or point guard, the team will still be lacking. The Sixers, Knicks and Hawks basically just shuffled around unwanted players in the last few days. The Pacers lost Brad Miller and Ron Mercer and have only Scot Pollard to show for it. The Celtics' big free-agent move was to re-sign Walter McCarty. The Hornets' big splash was Sean Rooks. The Raptors trumped them a bit by landing free-agent studs Jerome Moiso, Milt Palacio and Mengke Bateer. The Bulls' big addition was a 60-year-old Scottie Pippen. Several cellar dwellers did get better. The Cavs will be much improved with LeBron James running the show. So will the Wizards with Gilbert Arenas at the helm. A few teams, however, may have actually gotten worse. The Bucks stripped their roster of their best four players in the matter of a year, and the Heat, unless they land Lamar Odom, struck out in free agency despite the fact that they have a legend of a coach and play in one of the premier free-agent destinations -- South Florida. How do they rank against one another? Insider breaks it down: Also see: How the West will be won 1. New Jersey Nets Projected record: 55-27 Biggest additions: Alonzo Mourning, Zoran Planinic Biggest subtractions: Anthony Johnson, Eddie Jordan The skinny: If Mourning is healthy, and if Martin and Jefferson keep up the learning curve, the Nets will be tougher than ever. Their big weakness last year was in the middle. If Zo can give them 25 minutes a night of solid defense in the paint, they'll be very tough to beat. Planinic is the sleeper. He played well enough in the summer league to prompt one Nets assistant coach to predict that he could get major minutes in the back ourt alongside Kidd. The other big issue is the loss of Jordan. He was the architect of the Nets' run-and-gun offense and also played mediator between Kidd and head coach Byron Scott. Kidd reiterated on Thursday that there is no rift between him and Scott -- but one may develop if the Nets don't hire an assistant who can keep Kidd happy. 2. Detroit Pistons Projected record: 53-29 Biggest additions: Larry Brown, Darko Milicic, Elden Campbell Biggest subtractions: Jon Barry? The skinny: Good things are bound to happen when you hire a Hall of Fame-caliber coach and add the No. 2 pick in the draft. The Pistons are on a roll of good fortune and the Nets appear to be the only team in the East that can slow them down right now. If the deal for Campbell goes down as expected (one Pistons official thought the signing would happen today) -- the Pistons will have four 7-footers and Ben Wallace to anchor their front line. Throw in the dynamic threesome of Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton and Tayshaun Prince and the deepest bench in the East and this could be the year that the Pistons break through to the Finals. 3. Indiana Pacers Projected record: 48-34 Biggest additions: Scot Pollard, Anthony Johnson Biggest subtractions: Brad Miller, Ron Mercer The skinny: Pacers fans are up in arms over the loss of Miller and Mercer for Pollard. Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh is pleading for patience. In all likelihood, the Pacers aren't done tinkering. New GM Larry Bird really wants another point guard and may be willing to give up Jamaal Tinsley to get it done. The Pacers did pick up Danny Ferry and his $4.5 million non-guaranteed salary in the trade. Package that with Tinsley and it could land them a veteran like Eric Snow or Charlie Ward. Even if that doesn't happen, the glass still appears to be half full in Indy. Jermaine O'Neal, Al Harrington and Ron Artest form a solid nucleus. The team believes that this is Jonathan Bender's breakout year and plans on playing him at the four and moving O'Neal to the five when they aren't playing the dominant centers in the NBA. Pollard may not be Miller on the offensive end, but he is a better defender and rebounder. With so many offensive weapons to choose from, the Pacers don't really need Pollard to score. 4. New Orleans Hornets Projected record: 48-34 Biggest additions: Sean Rooks, David West Biggest subtractions: Jerome Moiso, Kenny Anderson? The skinny: For the second straight year, Hornets owner George Shinn shocked the NBA by re-signing one of his own players. Last summer it was Baron Davis. This summer it was P.J. Brown. Put Brown and Davis together with Jamal Mashburn and Jamaal Magloire and the Hornets still have one of the best inside-outside threats in the league. The two keys for the Hornets this season will be health and coaching. They can't afford to lose Davis and Mashburn for long stretches again. On the coaching side, Tim Floyd now replaces Paul Silas. Can he keep the momentum going? Silas is one of the most underrated coaches in the league. Floyd believes the same thing about himself after a miserable stint with the Terri-Bulls. Can he get the same effort out of his team that Silas did? If he can't the Hornets will slide. 5. Orlando Magic Projected record: 46-36 Biggest additions: Juwan Howard, Reece Gaines, Tyronn Lue, Zaur Pachulia Biggest subtractions: Darrell Armstrong, Jacque Vaughn, Shawn Kemp? The skinny: Another year, another season without Grant Hill. The Magic appear to have had it with Hill's annual comeback attempt and tried to push him into a box this summer when they applied for the league's medical exception. It was denied after league doctors determined that there was a chance that Hill could play this season. Fat chance. While medically that may be true, it appears the Magic have no intention of letting that happen. Hill probably won't play again until the Magic are sure that the odds are in their favor. That's why they ran out and landed Howard. Like Hill, Howard has the personality to fit into the Magic's system without disrupting Tracy McGrady's dominance. Howard's a nice pick-up, but what does that do to Drew Gooden? Gooden struggled in Memphis when the team moved him to small forward and flourished in Orlando when he played power forward. Howard's no longer quick enough to play the three and neither player has the size to really play the five on a consistent basis. Point guard is also an issue. First-round pick Gaines struggled in the summer league and Lue is too small to play major minutes. Pachulia may be the wild card in all of this. He dominated at times in the summer league and could be the answer, down the road, for the Magic in the middle. The Best of the Rest: After the top five, the rest of the East is wash. The Sixers will still be in the mix somewhere. The addition of Glenn Robinson will give them plenty of scoring, but Kenny Thomas and Marc Jackson don't make the strongest of front lines. Chemistry will also be an issue. How well Allen Iverson responds to Robinson and new head coach Randy Ayers will be the deciding factor. The Celtics live and die by Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker. The news all summer has swirled around rumored Walker trades. But the Celtics may be cooling their heels. Walker has been religiously working out with Michael Jordan's trainer, Tim Grover. One Celtics official told Insider that he's lost so much weight he resembles the Antoine Walker we saw at Kentucky. Put him with an improving Kedrick Brown, quick as lightning rookie point guard Marcus Banks and a recovering Vin Baker and the Celtics should at least be able to hold serve. It appears that there aren't many Keith Van Horn fans out there right now, but that's really irrelevant. The Knicks will be a playoff team this year if Antonio McDyess is healthy and returns to form. If he doesn't, it seems doubtful that the team will be able ride Allan Houston, Van Horn and Mike Sweetney to an eight seed. The Raptors will also be in the hunt as long as Vince Carter and Antonio Davis remain healthy. The rest of the East could be labeled the young and the restless. The Bulls appear to be the most ready to make the leap this year. If Jamal Crawford, Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry continue their development, veterans like Jalen Rose, Scottie Pippen and Donyell Marshall should be able to give them a shot at an eighth seed. The Wizards will go as far as young players like Kwame Brown, Gilbert Arenas and Jarvis Hayes take them. Jerry Stackhouse can only do so much. LeBron James should lead the Cavs back to respectability but it will take huge years by Darius Miles and Carlos Boozer to push them into the playoffs. The Hawks, Heat and Bucks should all battle for last place. The Hawks basically conceded the battle when they shipped Robinson to Philly for cap room. The Heat added another nice young player in Dwyane Wade, but unless they land Odom, they're still a couple of players away from being a contender. The Bucks have a nice young nucleus with T. J. Ford, Michael Redd, Desmond Mason and Tim Thomas, but the firing of coach George Karl was a pretty clear sign that the team knows it will be in the throes of rebuilding for a while. Around the league The Mavs may not be getting into the Western Conference trading frenzy after all. Owner Mark Cuban denied a report in Thursday's New York Daily News that claimed that the Mavs were talking with the Knicks about a Raef LaFrentz-for-Kurt Thomas/Charlie Ward swap. Does that mean the Mavs are going to sit things out this summer? Coach Don Nelson said he's been working tirelessly trying to make something happen. "I don't think people should confuse lack of action for lack of effort," Nelson told the Fort Worth Star Telegram. "We've been burning the candle at both ends while burning up the phone lines. We felt like in a lot of these [potential trades and free agent signings] that you put yourself in good positions and you hope luck is with you. But for every [steve] Nash trade that you do, there's 10 others that look just as good and feel just as good, but for whatever reason it just doesn't take." The Indianapolis Star reported that the Mavs and Pacers did talk about a Brad Miller/Jamaal Tinsley-for-Steve Nash/Shawn Bradley swap, but the deal never materialized. The Mavs aren't the only team having problems convincing free agents to come play for them. The Jazz are in the same boat. If the Clippers match Utah's offer sheet for Corey Maggette next week, the team will be left holding around $20 million in cap room with no free agents to show for it. The team isn't giving up, however. While there aren't any free agents the team is locked onto, trades aren't out of the question. In fact, it may be the best way for the Jazz to acquire talent. If top free agents are reluctant to come to Utah because of stereotypes or a wariness to fill John Stockton and Karl Malone's shoes, the best plan may be to trade for guys who are already locked up. A number of teams are desperately trying to get further under the cap and would be more than willing to send a player in a long-term deal for salary-cap relief in return. "The biggest thing that we can do is, in an orderly process, try and evaluate," GM Kevin O'Connor told the Salt Lake Tribune, "whether it's a sign-and-trade, whether it's a straight trade, whether it's . . . having other teams look at us as somebody who can take a player from them." Antoine Walker Forward Boston Celtics Profile 2002-2003 SEASON STATISTICS GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT% 78 20.1 7.2 4.8 .388 .615 While the Jazz aren't tipping their hand on who that may be, there are a number of players on the market the Jazz could grab. Among the most prominent? Boston's Antoine Walker, Atlanta's Shareef Abdur-Rahim and Theo Ratliff, Golden State's Antawn Jamison, Miami's Eddie Jones, Indiana's Austin Croshere and Detroit's Cliff Robinson and Corliss Williamson. It appears that the Rockets will not match the Grizzlies' offer for restricted free agent James Posey. The Houston Chronicle reported on Friday that the team had come to terms with Eric Piatkowski on a three-year, $8 million deal. He'll come at half the price of Posey and allow the Rockets to replace him without incurring the luxury tax. That's good news for the Grizzlies, who are seriously concerned about the long-term future of Michael Dickerson. Jerry West told Insider on Thursday that his goal is to get the Grizzlies two players deep at every position. "We just need to keep adding more talent here and Posey gives us something that we really don't have," West said in a phone interview from California. "If the Rockets don't match I believe we're now two deep at every position but center and we're still trying to address that." West wouldn't divulge who the team is targeting, but it's clear that he believes it needs to add another center to help out Lorenzen Wright. Whatever the Grizzlies do, it will have to be via trade at this point. Posey will take up the team's full mid-level exception and the team used its $1.5 million exception last year on Gordan Giricek. Besides, the team already has 16 players on its roster with guaranteed contracts, assuming the Rockets don't match Posey. The Grizzlies do have trade bait and it isn't Wright or Stromile Swift. ("We're trying to add size, not give it away," West said.) Both Wesley Person ($7.7 million this season) and Brevin Knight ($5 million this season) are in the last year of their contracts. A team trying to clear cap for 2004 might be willing to take those players off the Grizzlies' hands and give up a big man in return. Agent Dan Fegan told the Denver Post that he's had conversations with the Nuggets about free agent Stephen Jackson. The Atlanta Journal Constitution reported on Friday that the Hawks have interest in Jackson. The Nets have offered free agent Lucious Harris a two year, $5 million contract the New York Post reported. "We don't have a deal done," said agent Jerome Stanley. "I don't know where things are. It's up to the Nets to make it happen. The negotiations are on-going, it's safe to say it is a difficult process." It looks like the Celtics won't be signing Travis Best. The Boston Globe is reporting that the Celtics have made a one year offer for the minimum to Heat point guard Mike James. Team president Danny Ainge said he expected a deal to be completed today. The team also signed second round pick Brandon Hunter to a two year, $1.1 million dollar deal. Kidd-Nets Marriage Is Sensible Harvey Araton / New York Times To Kidd, Mourning is high risk, high reward Ira Winderman / South Florida Sun-Sentinel Walsh pleads with fans for some patience Mark Montieth / Indianapolis Star Cuban disputes trade talk Dwain Price / Fort Worth Star-Telegram Jazz struggling to find parts Phil Miller / Salt Lake Tribune Clippers' Piatkowski to sign with Rockets Jonathan Feigen / Houston Chronicle Peep Show By Terry Brown NBA Insider Friday, July 25 Updated: July 25 10:22 AM ET New Jersey Nets: Jason Kidd is not only getting along with coach Byron Scott these days, he's petitioning to get along with him for a very long time. "I hope he does get the extension, I do," Kidd said to the NY Times. "For a guy, two out of three years to get to the finals, he's doing something right. . . If there's any question about Coach's and my relationship, it's great and we want to push forward. That whole thing about me coming in demanding stuff, that's not my personality or it's not on my agenda. My agenda is to win ballgames." The all star point guard is still trying to put down rumors that he wanted Scott fired before he would re-sign with the Nets this offseason. So as he put his name on a six-year, $103M contract with Scott in his presence, he repeated it one more time: "It definitely hurts Coach in the sense of just coming off the finals and now one of your players doesn't want you," Kidd said. "It's not true." Szczerbiak Minnesota Timberwolves: Last year, rumor had it Wally Szczerbiak wanted out of Minnesota to go back home to play for the Knicks. This year, Knick guard Latrell Sprewell left New York to join Wally in Minnesota and they couldn't be any happier. "Shaq is always going to be a big obstacle, but other than that, we stack up very favorably with anyone in the league," Szczerbiak told The Post. "Position by position, we've upgraded our roster. We made our team much stronger and now we got the horses to do the job. We just have to check our egos at the door. It's going to take a little bit of time." Szczerbiak also mentioned that he would probably be moving to small forward to make room for Spree. "He'll give 100 percent for the Minnesota organization the same way he gave it to the Knicks," Spree's publicist Marvet Britto said. "It's exciting for him to join a player of Kevin Garnett's caliber. This is exciting for him. It's a new start in a new city. He looks forward to joining a consistent playoff contender." Toronto Raptors: Apparently, Vince Carter doesn't mind being Kobe Bryant's stand in and neither does his team. "It will be good for him, it might get him going again," a source close to Carter said to the Toronto Star about Carter playing for the National Team in the upcoming Olympic qualifying tournament. Carter is coming off two knee injuries and a badly hurt ankle but the Raptors are happy that Shawn Marion and Michael Finley turned down the invitations so that Carter could play. Van Horn New York Knicks: Keith Van Horn's former teammates, the Nets not the Sixers, are wishing him only the best next season as he becomes a Knick. "I wish Keith a lot of luck," said Jason Kidd to the NY Post. "I know it's probably tough because he's been traded twice and so I wish him the best of luck in New York. He's a talented player. He just has to find a home. I thought he had a great season for Philly. . . . Keith will make the best of the situation. He's never one to complain. He plays hard and he's right across the river. So he's on the rival side." Indiana Pacers: Pacer CEO Donnie Walsh was in full damage control yesterday as Brad Miller was dealt to the Kings for Scot Pollard and Anthony Johnson. "I would say, 'Wait until you see Scot Pollard play; wait until you see our team play,' " Walsh told the Indianapolis Star. "I wouldn't make judgment off of stats or what you think you know. I think they'll like (Pollard) and I know they'll like Anthony Johnson. If you want to do a day-to-day commentary with all this, you can do that. But the simple fact is, it's what happens from the beginning of the summer until we go to training camp. Then we'll know what kind of club we'll have. I feel good about our talent." He also mentioned that his next priority was to re-sign veteran Reggie Miller. Kidd Wants Extension for Scott Liz Robbins / New York Times Szczerbiak: T'Wolves Better With Spree Marc Berman / New York Post Vince getting Olympic feeling Doug Smith / Toronto Star Old Mates Wish Van Horn Well Fred Kerber / New York Post Walsh pleads with fans for some patience Mark Montieth / Indianapolis Star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyman3 Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 "The Hawks, Heat and Bucks should all battle for last place." - they think Cavs are better than us? Bulls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudderfudder77 Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 Yes, I think the Bulls are better than the Hawks. Curry, Chandler, Rose, Pippen, Crawford. They might not be superstars, but they're better than anything the Hawks have right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 They sure are more talented that is for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyman3 Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 I still think the Bulls arent as good as the hawks... they still need a year or two. -Abdur-Rahim and Rose = about equal at their own positions (although SAR is more consistant) -Curry did show flashys of dominance, but those are only "flashys." I think Ratliff is the better player right now but Curry will pass him (but not this year) -IMO, JT is the better than Crawford... dont yah agree? - Pippen is gettin old, hes not the same old Pippen - Chandler? Hes no Garnett... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudderfudder77 Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 First off I never said Chandler was Garnett, but do I think he's better than Nazr Mohammed, Yes. The easiest way to conpare is look at the starting lineup and at the 6th 7th and 8th guys off the bench. Bulls....................................Hawks PG J. Crawford.....................PG D. Dickau SG J. Rose..........................SG J. Terry SF S. Pippen........................SF S. Abdur Rahim PF T. Chandler.....................PF N. Mohammed C E. Curry.........................C T. Ratliff 6th D. Marshall....................6th B. Diaw 7th K Hinrich.......................7th A. Henderson??? 8th M. Fizer........................8th ??????????????? I could maybe, just maybe, concede that the starters are equal. But when you start looking at the benches, the Bulls are far and away the better team. But even conceding the starting lineups is hard, Rahim and Rose are a wash. Terry is better than Crawford at this point, although I think they will be playing different positions. Dickau vs. Pippen, even an old Pippen, or Crawford is a joke, Bulls win that one. As for Curry vs. Ratliff, that ones pretty close, but I say the edge goes to Curry. Ratliff is easily the better defender, but Curry is bigger, stronger, faster, and much more skilled offensively. I'd be shocked if Curry didn't make the all-star team this year. I acknowledge that's not saying much in a depleted eastern conference. And like I said earlier Marshall, Fizer, Baxter, and Hinrich are better than anything the Hawks can get off the bench. Post is a little long, but i thought I should explain my reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyman3 Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 Whether or not u think JT is a PG or a SG, he will play PG for us and just about every other team in the NBA (if he was on some other team). Same goes with REEF at PF. MR DICKAU will not be starting... even players that dominate summer leagues find it hard to start on some teams and we all know Dickau was no summer league dominator Bulls....................................Hawks PG J. Crawford.....................PG J. Terry SG J. Rose..........................SG WHOEVER SF S. Pippen........................SF Diaw PF T. Chandler.....................PF Abdur-Rahim C E. Curry.........................C T. Ratliff 6th D. Marshall....................6th A Henderson 7th K Hinrich.......................7th D. Dickau??? 8th M. Fizer........................8th C. Crawford??????????????? if u look at it that way, break it down... PG- we win Terry is better than Crawford SG- they win Rose is better than any SG we got SF- they win Even an old pippen can contribute more than a mid pick (at this point) PF- we win Comparing him to Garnett was used just to prove my point C- Tie? Ratliff is the better defensive player by a good margin, Curry is the better offensive player by a good margin. Ratliff does have some offense and Curry does have some defense. U look at Currys frame and u see this monster, Shaq PART 2. But hes still a kid and he cant do it in a consistant manner (well not yet). Yes ive seen flashys when hes played VERY WELL (the complete package) but not on a consistant basis. Hes not going to turn into an allstar in 1 season (i think Ratliff has a better chance being an allstar than him this year). Fizer hasnt done a thing in the NBA other than being chicagos number 1 trade bait over the past few years. Marshall is a good backup, but so is Mohammed. Hinrich struggled in the summer games, wat makes u think hes gonna come out and play better than Dickau this year? - its a wash... both teams. But we're more well-rounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudderfudder77 Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 It's absolutely incredulous that you could belive the Hawks are a better team than the Bulls this year. In case you didn't notice, your team is tanking it this year to save payroll and start anew in a season or two, like the Bulls three years ago. The Hawks were only five wins better last year than the Bulls and you just traded away your leading scorer for cap space! And comparing Mohammed to Marshall is a joke, check their stats. Even Fizers stats are better than Mohammeds and you said he was nothing. Well rounded? You've got a 6'2" pg who likes to shoot more than pass, don't even have a SG, you're SF is a rookie, you're PF is an excellent talent who's never made his teams better, and your C just finally played a full season for the first time in six years. None of your reserves averaged more than 5pts a game last season. Fizer avg 11pts 6reb, Marshall avg 14pts 9reb, not to mention E. Robinson who despite being vastly overpaid does provide defense and scoring off the bench. Listen, the Bulls aren't great by any means, but they most certainly better than any team the Hawks could field right now. Face it, all the Hawks have right now is Rahim and Terry if they can sign him. I've met plenty of delusional Bulls fans over the last three years, but I don't know that any of them were operating on as grand a scale as you are. But intelligent minds can agree to disagree. Ultimately I guess we'll find out for sure what will happen the first time these teams play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 The Bulls starting unit would give our starting until all it could handle.I think the Bulls are a lock for the playoffs this year and we might fight for 8th seed if we get enough solid pickups like Jones/Trent and bring Glover back....if the roster is filled out with CBA guys we can forget able 8th seed.... We probably will be better than: The Knicks-Houston and Kurt Thomas is about it.I don;t believe Dice will be healthy.If he is...then they will finish ahead of us. Cleveland Miami Those are teams we should for sure be ahead.It's debatable that we can be better than the Bucks/ Raptors. And who knows about new Orleans with it's new coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyman3 Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 1)"...your team is tanking it this year to save payroll and start anew in a season or two, like the Bulls three years ago." - people (esp ESPN) say we're worse than last year and think we're rebuilding just because we got rid of MR. CHEMISTRY KILLER. Face it! We played better w/o Robinson than with Robinson! If anything it makes our present + future look better at the same time. - did i mention, Knight just laughed at the thought of us tanking the season. Get 1 good coach in and the EAST is wide open (for anyone including us and the bulls) 2)"The Hawks were only five wins better last year than the Bulls and you just traded away your leading scorer for cap space!" - Robinson didnt fit here. We were worse with Robinson. Theres stats + records (wins and losses) to prove it as well. Wasnt there one stat where if REEF gets certain number of shot attempts, we win (like 80% of the time) or something like that? I remember the commentators saying something like that during our game vs the KNICKS towards the end of the season. 3)"And comparing Mohammed to Marshall is a joke, check their stats. Even Fizers stats are better than Mohammeds and you said he was nothing." - im sorry... im sure everyones calling Chicago to get Mohammed and Fizer in a trade quick! Didnt Orlando deny a Fizer/Mike Miller trade a while back? 4)"Well rounded?" + "Fizer avg 11pts 6reb, Marshall avg 14pts 9reb" - i believe Ratliff + SAR was an allstar at one point (recently). So ur tellin me that ".371 average" 3-point shooter shouldnt be shootin? LOL - Marshall gets 30.5 mpg and Fizer plays 21 mpg. Like Henderson said "well... i cant rebound from the bench." Mohammed played close to 1 quarter a game... thats why it seems like Marshall has 2x better stats than his (cuz hes playing 2 TIMES LONGER)!!! duh! - EROBs 6 PPG in 21 mpg is TRASH... its funny how u list Marshall/Fizers numbers but not "Mr. INEFFECTIVE EROB" ------------------------------------------------------- All im saying is... since MJ came to the BULLS, the bulls get 2 times more press than we do. Most newspaper writes prob still think JT is playing the 2-guard for our team. I never compared us to the SACRAMENTO KINGS now... and the BULLS arent far away from us. I just think we're still the better team (this year, at least). Eddy Curry - 19.4 mpg, 4.4 rpg, 10.5 ppg is close to an allstar than THEO RATLIFF? Brad Miller average close to double-double and was an allstar last year. Look at Curry and Ratliffs stats. Not much difference in each others stats other than these 1)playing time- Ratliff gets about 10 more minutes 2)Blocks- its Ratliffs forte 3)Ratliff is clearly the better rebounder even tho most of us thinks he should rebound more (even w/ per 48 minute stats he rebounds better) 4)Ratliff gets about 3x more steals (not that important tho, since none of them are close to Allen Iverson) 5)ONLY ADVANTAGES for curry = POINTS + SHOOTING PERCETANGE is one of the highest in the NBA... thats it! like i said, Curry is definitely looking good in the NBA... but hes not an ALLSTAR and wont be one this year (unless he BREAKS OUT). I think we'll see a gradual increase in Currys numbers by the years but no big breakout change... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudderfudder77 Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 Point 1. The team tanking it. Obviously the team was looking ahead to this coming season when it traded away 20ppg, even if he was a cancer it's still 20ppg, for cap space. If Atlanta wanted to win this year they would of traded Robinson for an actual body. Even if they are better without him wouldn't it of made sense to trade for a sg, or another position of need, rather than something inantimate. Oh and the point of all the east needs is a good coach to get to the Finals is a joke. Coaching in the NBA is the most overated of all sports. Talent wins in the NBA, unlike Football or Hockey where good coaching can win games. Point 2. Hawks five wins better. Basically I think you just rehashed your argument from above, team being better without Robinson and such. Then you mentioned some inane stat you heard on a broadcast. If SAR gets so many shots a game the Hawks would win 80% of their games. I'd like you to consider that for a moment. By that reasoning the Hawks should win 60 games next year, all they have to do is let SAR chuck it up their to get his shots and they'd win, seeing as the all-star Robinson isn't there to hog the shots. Do you see how insane that reasoning is? The five wins seperating the Hawks and Bulls is almost nothing. Consider what the Hawks and Bulls did in the offseason to improve. Hawks traded away a very talented cancer for nothing. Bulls picked up a decent veteran ballhandler who still plays great defense. Point 3. Comparing Mohammed to Marshall and Fizer First off, you were the one who questioned whether Fizer had ever done anything other than being trade bait, and then said what a great reserve Mohammed is. All I pointed out was that Fizer has had a better season to date than Mohammed. If Mohammed was as good as you believe he is, he'd be getting more than 12 mins a game. Stats show that even if performance is based on 48mins a game Marshall and Fizer stats are superior to Mohammed. As for Orlando denying a Mike Miller for Fizer trade, I'm not sure what that proves other than a trade didn't happen. I never said Fizer was an all star everyone wanted, only that he's better than any of the Hawks reserves. Point 4. The question of well rounded (your words) First you try to compare your starters past accolades to players who are now Bulls reserves. Yes SAR was an all-star in Vancouver, but hows he fared in Atlanta. He's never taken a team to a winning record. Terry is an undersized guard no matter where he plays, and defense is always going to be a liability. And Ratliff is one bang away from missing the season again. If you look at my comments you'll notice that I refered to E-Rob as vastly overpaid, he is a scrub for the money he's making, and yet he still has better stats than the Hawks reserves. As for Henderson rebounding from the bench, if he played better when he was out there he would get the minutes, same with Mohammed. The point is that the starters might be a wash, but the Hawks have no bench. You let your most talented bench player (Newble) walk. You can fill it with all the Kendall Gills you want and you still wont have the talent and the experience the Bulls have on the bench. Thats where the difference lies, and where the Bulls prove themselves to be a better team. Thats not even counting the fact that you havn't resigned Terry (I know he's restricted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyman3 Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 POINT 1. - We MIGHT have been able to attain KVH or SPREWELL, but we're not even close to being REAL CONTENDERS. Sure KVH or SPREE might give us the edge for 1 season or two, but wats the difference is we're going to maintain mediocre? Heck, we can stay mediocre w/o them... so we're concentrating more on the future. In other words, we couldnt do much with GROBs trade value but hope for a great future or a mediocre present. Remember now, the deal as we HAWKS FANS see it (or should see it) = ADDITION BY SUBTRACTION. Oh yeah, how on earth is coaching not important in the NBA? I guess Phil Jackson has nothing to do w/ KOBE + SHAQ getting rings since they prob could have done it with experience... rite? Same rules with Jordan. The COACH makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE.... if u dont believe me, ask the GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS... POINT 2 - One of the last games of the season in which we are playing the Knicks (very close match and Sprewell misses the last open 3 and we win), that statistic was announced many times throughout the game- the 80% was made up (i cant recall the actual figure but it was a high number). Of course we wont win 60 games with Shareef as our #1 option, but we sure wont win no 30 games with that statistic to back us up either. - Yes that 5 win difference doesnt mean much, i agree. But how can u say the bulls improved more than we have over the summer? "Consider what the Hawks and Bulls did in the offseason to improve. Hawks traded away a very talented cancer for nothing. Bulls picked up a decent veteran ballhandler who still plays great defense." - that pretty much says it all... UR NOT GETTING THE POINT. Our best asset to the trade was receiving nothing (present) and something in the future (money/draftpick). Its a simple ADDITION BY SUBTRACTION. but if u dont get it, its okay- cuz rest of the media (that doesnt give a $hit about the hawks) think of the trade the same way as u do. POINT 3 - No i never thought Mohammed was great. In fact it was me that argued with Diesel saying Mohammed/DeClercq arent much different. How on earth could Mohammed get more minutes behind SAR and RATLIFF? SAR is our best offensive weapon and he needs to be next to a defensive presence (like Ratliff). - Marshall and Fizer arent scarying anyone in the east. Suppose ur coaching a little kids team and they all suck. Wouldnt every player share about equal minutes and get similar playing time? Marshall and Fizer, along with Mohammed, are nothing but reserves in this league (although Marshall does have the ability to start for a few teams but so does Mohammed). POINT 4 -"The point is that the starters might be a wash" i agree... thats why i dont see a big difference between us and them. u know what? i give up.. the Bulls have a turkiglo and clark coming off their bench with a Van Exel... my bad. POINT 5 - the whole time, i supported my answers assuming TERRY is resigned. I believed it was understood.... FINAL POINTS - best thing about our trade is LOSING GROB. Just that makes us better (according to our record when he was out with injuries). - We do win more games when Shareef gets his share of touches. - Coaching does make a difference - Not much difference b/t us and bulls (although i still see us as better.) - This argument isint even worth it... like fightin over 2 quarters cuz whether or not each team goes to the playoffs, they will be knocked out eventually by NETS or PISTONS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beav Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 "It's absolutely incredulous that you could belive the Hawks are a better team than the Bulls this year. In case you didn't notice, your team is tanking it this year to save payroll and start anew in a season or two, like the Bulls three years ago. The Hawks were only five wins better last year than the Bulls and you just traded away your leading scorer for cap space!" Why incredulous? So the Hawks were 9-4 *without* our leading scorer last year. And as you mentioned the Hawks were still 5 games better than the Bulls. I'd hardly call letting Big Hog, the defenseless Dion Glover and a good defender (Newble) go, tanking the payroll on the scale of Jordan, Pippen, Kerr, Jackson et al. In fact there is still plenty of time and moves to make before the season starts. What if the Hawks bring in Carlisle? It is an absolute no-brainer as far as I am concerned that the hawks are better than the Bulls. The Bulls are a young team loaded with talent. But until that talent shows that they can get over the 30 win mark when they are bringing back the same coach then I remain uncommitted and sitting on the sidelines to their chances. You lose Williams and Hinrich has been a bust so far right? Fizer has been a virtual bust, right? Rose has helped a little but hasn't exactly taken you to the promised land right? Chandler and Curry have talent galore but has that translated to a batch of wins yet? You add Pippen but after seeing his team play virtually every game the last 4 years, I can clue you in in advance he ain't the same fella he was 5 years ago, and he misses about 25% of his games due to injury. And perhaps, the most telling move will be the lack of resigning "the mayor" Freddie Hoiberg. If you thought losing Jordan was bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyman3 Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 thank u BEAV.... oh yeah, and for Fizer hes gonna be on the trading block... again. http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...bullsrevuenotes,1,7231235.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines take it for wat its worth.... We just need 1 good coach and 1 chemistry bond..... thats all i ask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudderfudder77 Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 Listen, most of what has been said is pretty subjective. I said before that intelligent people can agree to disagree. But only an idiot would say Hinrich is a bust after only 6 games in the Rocky Mountain Revue. And Fizer has proven to be a bust as a starter, but is more than able coming off the bench. And as far as Hinrich goes, the Bulls aren't counting on him to claim a starting spot, they only want him to be the guy off the bench who can run the team when Crawford or Rose needs a breather. If he plays the whole season like he did in the revue, other than the one fantastic game he played, than you will have proved prophetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beav Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 "But only an idiot would say Hinrich is a bust after only 6 games in the Rocky Mountain Revue." Good then I guess that I've made the non-idiot cut since I typed (so far) in the body of my post. Not that they are the end-all be-all, but I don't think that I remember reading one draft review thinking that Hinrich was a good fit for the Bulls offense. Do I like Hinrich? Yes. But it is probably wildly optimistic to expect much from him his first year. And yes, Fizer is indeed a bust when you consider he was a high lottery pick (3rd I believe?). Also MF, since you are on about your 8th post here you might not realize that for the most part the posters here are civil and don't generally resort to silly name-calling. We're generally grown-ups here and even the ones that are not over 18 tend to act older than their age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudderfudder77 Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 I don't believe that in any of my posts I actually resorted to name calling. And I hardly think the banter thats been going back and forth here has been by any means venomous. A little good natured ribbing between fans of two down-trodden franchises can hardly be bad. But hey if you were offended, I'm sorry for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beav Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 I wasn't offended just trying to help you out with the idiots, fools jibes... I guess I'll just post with the grownups then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudderfudder77 Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. -Friedrich Nietzsche- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member mrhonline Posted July 28, 2003 Premium Member Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 Sorry, couldn't resist. I've gotta quick trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now