J. O'Neal to Toronto

[Kimsey]

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Teams for the most part don't improve linearly without changes. Horford could have a second year slump. Marvin may return with the same game and Bibby may not stay healthy. We can't just assume that we will go from 37 to 45 this year then 45 to 53 the year after. It don't work that way.

Changing your line up doesn't necessarily improve you record either. Charlotte adding J Rich, Denver adding Iverson, Memphis before the Gasol trade, Dallas adding Kidd, Phoenix adding Shaq, Cleveland adding Wallace etc.

I agree with both sides but those guys are well into their 30's or close to it. I wouldn't trade for anyone in their 30's with 3 or more years on their contracts. You are only getting a declining player while limiting cap flexibility.

You have to trade for younger veterans who demonstrate they can play ex. Payton for a young Ray Allen.

Ask the people who drafted Duncan, Wade, Hakeem, etc. if they regretted it.

[Zone034life]

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They have traded away Elton Brand, Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Ron Artest, Brad Miller, etc. and had they just been patient with most of those guys instead of constantly changing the roster they would most likely be a lot better now than they actually are.

We should be concentrating on growing with our core and adding solid pieces around them.

I wonder what some of you would think if we decided to "not stand pat" and we made a bold move like trading Smoove to someone for a guy who is already a star in order to keep up with the other teams making moves.

First off I was talking about the Bulls roster coming into last season. I even listed the roster to show you they didn't make that move that would have put them over the top. So you listing all those former Bulls isn't relevant to what I was saying. It does make your point look valid and that is why you mentioned it. You think the Bulls wish they had gotten Gasol? Hell Yes! They even had a chance to get the Black Mamba but couldn't get the deal done. The point is they had a chance to not only get to the playoffs last season but be a major player. Them settling and not going after those star players is the difference between them and the Celtics this season. Danny Ainge made it happen and John Paxson didn't.

As far as Smoove is concerned I never mentioned him the one to be traded. If someone would be traded in order it should be Bibby, ZaZa, Marvin and last but very least chillz.

I'm not saying completely break this team down but I am saying complement it with an Artest, Camby, T.Prince, B.Davis or Micheal Redd. Marvin, Bibby and or ZaZa could get you one maybe two of those players.

[ATLBob]

Look, I agree that I don't want to see the Hawks make irrational moves, or moves just to move. If something became available that would make us better without jeopardizing our future, though, you damn sure bet I would want Sund to give it a hard look.

The Pistons trade acquisitions got them where they are. They drafted Darko Milicic for christsake.

Traded for Ben Wallace.

Traded for Rip Hamilton.

Signed FA Chauncey Billups.

Drafted Tayshaun Prince.

Traded for Rasheed Wallace.

To suggest that a roster can't be constructed and solidified through shrewd trading is just ridiculous.

[Peoriabird]

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Good grief, I presented the facts and you disregard them to make your "argument". Kobe was traded for after he became petulent about not playing for the Hornets. Its like when Elway forced his trad. Facts are that neither of them played for the teams that drafted them.

My point is that it was not the block buster deal that you made it out to be!

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What is your point about Shaq? That satement makes no sense without the context. The argument is that only ONE FA in the history of modern NBA has become a core player on a championship team.

They didn't have to give up a thing to get Shaq. If we can do the same, I'm all for it!

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Other championship teams are built via critical trades that pair experienced guys with a superstar-like player (e.g. Celtics, Miami, Lakers) or through putting togther a once in a decade team of terrific players (Pistons) coupled with a down team.

I gave you Detroit! I also think that the Celtics situation is unique and hasn't happen before in the history of the NBA. Miami's situation was unique also because of the Kobe Shaq issue. But look where Miami is now. Not sure I prefer their situation over ours.

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Furthermore, the one team that was built through 3 great draft picks (Duncan, Parker, Ginobli), still used trades to fill out there roster and get the pieces they needed.

What trades are you referring to?

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Your idea that the entirity of the core of the Hawks roster can get a championship is not supported by the evidence.

How can you make this statement when you have already conceded that the dynasties of the 80's and 90's where all built thru the draft?

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Additionally, the Hawks can't do keep this core due to cap considerations. Now we could argue about what the core is, but from what I see the core is:

Bibby

JJ

MW

Smith

Horford

Childress

If you're in agreement with that being the core, then I can't see how one doesn't get traded to fill out the rest of the roster and manage the cap.

No I don't consider Bibby a core player. The others are! And if you trade one of them, you better get a damn good offer. None of this Marvin for Odum, or Smoove for Dalember nonsense!

[ATLBob]

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But look where Miami is now. Not sure I prefer their situation over ours.

Would I trade current rosters, no, but let's not forget that they won a championship while we haven't gotten out of the first round of the playoffs. I rather like championships.

[Peoriabird]

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But look where Miami is now. Not sure I prefer their situation over ours.

Would I trade current rosters, no, but let's not forget that they won a championship while we haven't gotten out of the first round of the playoffs. I rather like championships.

I kinda like long term success over one hit wonders! That is why i like our young roster.

[Zone034life]

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But look where Miami is now. Not sure I prefer their situation over ours.

Would I trade current rosters, no, but let's not forget that they won a championship while we haven't gotten out of the first round of the playoffs. I rather like championships.

Some fans would rather be mediocore or in the middle of the pack consistently than winning a title. I don't understand that logic. Its like the Braves or the Florida Marlins arguement. Two World Series or One world Series and 13 division titles? You don't play for division titles you play for World Series rings. They actually knock the Pistons and Celtics who have rings for having older players. To win a championship thats what it takes. Mature veterans who know how to play the game.

[frosgrim]

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No I don't consider Bibby a core player. The others are! And if you trade one of them, you better get a damn good offer. None of this Marvin for Odum, or Smoove for Dalember nonsense!

I agree that you have to get good value for any trade. You make the argument that our roster will lead to long-term success. While that might be the case, I don't think its anywhere close to forgone conclusion. Without a significant addition to the roster this summer, the Hawks could easily end up losing 45-50 games or winning 42 games. The roster is just too shallow to be consistent winners.

What my point boils down to, is that none of the current Hawks players should be considered untradable. I don't endorse 90% (99 if you include all of Diesel's trades) of the trades proposed, but there are some trades that have been bantied about that make sense. These include getting Redd, Billups, or Jefferson. Those three players add significantly to the current roster. Are there risks? Absolutely. But no one wins without taking risks. I am in agreement that we should cast off half the team ala the Bulls however.

As AtlBob and Kimsey say, lets get our sorry butts out of the second round (never happened for the franchise)! Lets have a team that looks like it can contend instead of having potential.

[Peoriabird]

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Some fans would rather be mediocore or in the middle of the pack consistently than winning a title. I don't understand that logic. Its like the Braves or the Florida Marlins arguement. Two World Series or One world Series and 13 division titles? You don't play for division titles you play for World Series rings. They actually knock the Pistons and Celtics who have rings for having older players. To win a championship thats what it takes. Mature veterans who know how to play the game.

And some fans believe that trading for someone else's player that hasn't won a championship for their team is somehow going to win one for us. I call it the grass is greener syndrome! Denver had it, Dallas caught it and LA caught it with Gasol. Didn't work did it? In that none of those teams won the championship. Furthermore, that trades proposed on this message board don't even bring in players of the same caliber as the aforementioned players that the above team brought in except maybe Gasol. So the question is, why can't we be patient one more year? We can make the same trades at the trade deadline of even after next season. And no we are not going to acquire a draft pick in this years draft. We are young enough already! Plus its not a good draft anyway!

[ATLBob]

I've got a soft spot for the Braves. Those thirteen straight division titles were one of the most amazing feats that I've ever seen in sports.

Clearly I don't want to be the new Heat, but obviously the situations don't line up enough for such a duplication to even be possible.

We're not talking overhaul here, but there's no way that eight players should be off-limits.

[jhay610]

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I've got a soft spot for the Braves. Those

fourteen

straight division titles were one of the most amazing feats that I've ever seen in sports.

corrected

[ATLBob]

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Plus its not a good draft anyway!

Actually, it is pretty nice at the top.

And, no, of course we aren't getting a pick

As I think this discussion is getting a bit too dialogic, I'm gonna go ahead and preempt appropriation by any radical side.

We shouldn't be forced to choose between making a trade and not making a trade. That's silly logic. Each possible trade proposal should be analyzed individually. If we find a better way to move forward, we pounce on it. If we don't, we don't. Simple.

[ATLBob]

Cheers!

Haha, what's wrong with me?

[Zone034life]

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Some fans would rather be mediocore or in the middle of the pack consistently than winning a title. I don't understand that logic. Its like the Braves or the Florida Marlins arguement. Two World Series or One world Series and 13 division titles? You don't play for division titles you play for World Series rings. They actually knock the Pistons and Celtics who have rings for having older players. To win a championship thats what it takes. Mature veterans who know how to play the game.

And some fans believe that trading for someone else's player that hasn't won a championship for their team is somehow going to win one for us. I call it the grass is greener syndrome! Denver had it, Dallas caught it and LA caught it with Gasol. Didn't work did it? In that none of those teams won the championship. Furthermore, that trades proposed on this message board don't even bring in players of the same caliber as the aforementioned players that the above team brought in except maybe Gasol. So the question is, why can't we be patient one more year? We can make the same trades at the trade deadline of even after next season. And no we are not going to acquire a draft pick in this years draft. We are young enough already! Plus its not a good draft anyway!

Yeah you're right. KG and Ray allen never won a ring for the Sonics,Bucks and Timberwolves so why did Danny Ainge trade for them? As I said before, look at the Bulls last season. They were patient and started horribly. Then when they tried to make a change mid season it was to little to late. They got lucky to even be getting Derrick Rose. If a deal like Gasol to the Bulls arose for the Hawks then Sund needs to take advantage of it.

I'm not saying change for the sake of change. I'm saying upgrade this roster so it can reach its full potential.

[Zone034life]

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I've got a soft spot for the Braves. Those thirteen straight division titles were one of the most amazing feats that I've ever seen in sports.

Clearly I don't want to be the new Heat, but obviously the situations don't line up enough for such a duplication to even be possible.

We're not talking overhaul here, but there's no way that eight players should be off-limits.

Believe me it pains me to bring up the Braves but the truth is the truth. Off subject, sign Tex or trade him at deadline?

Sund bringing up the top 8 staying intact is what has me lost. I don't understand why he would say that in the media. He may be closing doors before they could even open.

[ATLBob]

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Off subject, sign Tex or trade him at deadline?

Sign. We need Tex.

[Peoriabird]

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Yeah you're right. KG and Ray allen never won a ring for the Sonics,Bucks and Timberwolves so why did Danny Ainge trade for them? As I said before, look at the Bulls last season. They were patient and started horribly. Then when they tried to make a change mid season it was to little to late. They got lucky to even be getting Derrick Rose. If a deal like Gasol to the Bulls arose for the Hawks then Sund needs to take advantage of it.

I'm not saying change for the sake of change. I'm saying upgrade this roster so it can reach its full potential.

Paul Gasol is not going to bring anyone a championship so please stop mentioning his name!

[Zone034life]

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Yeah you're right. KG and Ray allen never won a ring for the Sonics,Bucks and Timberwolves so why did Danny Ainge trade for them? As I said before, look at the Bulls last season. They were patient and started horribly. Then when they tried to make a change mid season it was to little to late. They got lucky to even be getting Derrick Rose. If a deal like Gasol to the Bulls arose for the Hawks then Sund needs to take advantage of it.

I'm not saying change for the sake of change. I'm saying upgrade this roster so it can reach its full potential.

Paul Gasol is not going to bring anyone a championship so please stop mentioning his name!

Gasol would have made the Bulls better last season

[Johnnybravo4]

All I know is that Pau got them 50+ wins and a finals appearance. I'd take any of those. Even if the moves don't take you over the top, who here actually believes that this team, as constructed would contend for a title, even if they all played at their peak and we had the best supporting cast on earth?

[frosgrim]

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Off subject, sign Tex or trade him at deadline?

Sign. We need Tex.

Tex needs to start hitting soon. Part of the problem with the Braves this year (and forever) is that the 4 hole is devoid of steady production. Tex is getting some RBI but nothing like what he's being paid to do nor like Borris is going to get him paid to do.

I was really psyched when we got Tex, but right now I am seriously cooling on the guy. I just don't see the production nor the leadership ability. Dave OBrien over at the AJC has real reservations about Tex as well. DOB has gone as far as saying he wouldn't build a club around Tex due to Tex's lack of leadership. I think that is a huge consideration when you are talking about around 100 million dollars over 5 years.

Thus, right now, I am leaning towards moving Tex for an established player and a couple of top tier prospects (one in AAA and one in low AA or A). That seems like the going rate for a guy like Tex. A power hitter has to be in that group of prospects.