Does it bother anyone else

[crimedog]

If anyone else watched the Suns - Lakers game, they saw Kobe make some amazing shots in a 4 minute stretch. They also probably saw him go 3-13 after that and abstain from passing until the last play of the game. Every time I see a recap, all I see is "the Lakers lost despite a masterful performance from Kobe" and the only highlights I see of the end of the 3rd and 4th are the ones he made and the commentator says something like, "he'll make this contested J all week baby" even though he bricked away a good 9 of them.

Anyone who says Kobe is the greatest player in the game doesn't watch him enough. He has the bball IQ of Josh Smith.

Sorry for the rant.

[Admin]

If anyone else watched the Suns - Lakers game, they saw Kobe make some amazing shots in a 4 minute stretch. They also probably saw him go 3-13 after that and abstain from passing until the last play of the game. Every time I see a recap, all I see is "the Lakers lost despite a masterful performance from Kobe" and the only highlights I see of the end of the 3rd and 4th are the ones he made and the commentator says something like, "he'll make this contested J all week baby" even though he bricked away a good 9 of them.

Anyone who says Kobe is the greatest player in the game doesn't watch him enough. He has the bball IQ of Josh Smith.

Sorry for the rant.

I do agree that they make a bigger deal out of his game than should have been made but I did hear a couple of remarks about how it took him 38 attempts to get his points and there was kind of a pause after that as if they were saying he should have passed more.

Just out of curiosity, who do you consider to be the greatest player in the game?

[Wurider05]

These so called superstars are groomed and are given everything by the league and ESPN! You can't breathe on them without being called for a foul. Kobe took 38 shots but you only hear about the 49 points he had.

[Wurider05]

I do agree that they make a bigger deal out of his game than should have been made but I did hear a couple of remarks about how it took him 38 attempts to get his points and there was kind of a pause after that as if they were saying he should have passed more.

Just out of curiosity, who do you consider to be the greatest player in the game?

To me the greatest player in the game is Tim Duncan. He and Shaq have dominated the post Jordan era in the NBA. He goes to war with way less talent.

[crimedog]

I do agree that they make a bigger deal out of his game than should have been made but I did hear a couple of remarks about how it took him 38 attempts to get his points and there was kind of a pause after that as if they were saying he should have passed more.

Just out of curiosity, who do you consider to be the greatest player in the game?

Greatest player in the game today? Tim Duncan or Lebron. Obviously "greatest" being a complicating factor there. I think that Lebron is probably the "best" player but Duncan is probably the "greatest" player in terms of what he's achieved and what he's still capable of achieving.

Its easy to be sore about Lebron after the game last night, but even there we have a perfect example. When the time came for Lebron to make plays, he took it to the rim. He found his teamates and forced the refs to make the calls, which they did. When it came time for Kobe to make plays, he wanted to keep being the hero, or go for some sort of scoring record so he kept taking contested jumpers that, if he had continued to make them, would have been amazing, but were essentially lower-percentage than other things he could have done.

[AtLaS]

If anyone else watched the Suns - Lakers game, they saw Kobe make some amazing shots in a 4 minute stretch. They also probably saw him go 3-13 after that and abstain from passing until the last play of the game. Every time I see a recap, all I see is "the Lakers lost despite a masterful performance from Kobe" and the only highlights I see of the end of the 3rd and 4th are the ones he made and the commentator says something like, "he'll make this contested J all week baby" even though he bricked away a good 9 of them.

Anyone who says Kobe is the greatest player in the game doesn't watch him enough. He has the bball IQ of Josh Smith.

Sorry for the rant.

Even considering all that, Kobe almost shot 50% from the field. His teammates other than Gasol were playing like crap.

He's definitely the best in the game right now IMO.

[AHF]

He's definitely the best in the game right now IMO.

http://rotosynthesis.rotowire.com/default.asp?Display=587

Instead of going over a new stat this week, I decided instead to show you one of the fun ways these stats can be used: as evidence in an around-the-water-cooler argument. And this year, the most popular water cooler argument has to be the question of who is the better player: Kobe Bryant or LeBron James? Laker fans will swear it is Kobe, while if you live in Ohio the answer is obviously LeBron. The national media seem to be split on it as well. Everyone watches some combination of the same games, but everyone also has a different opinion and personal interpretation. So to break the stalemate, let’s look at some of the statistics that we’ve gone over the last few weeks to see if they shed any light.

Production

PER: Byant 24.5, James 31.9

As a quick review, we talked about how PER is a measure of box score production, normalized per minute and set so the league average is 15. Thus, it isn’t surprising that James is ahead of Bryant in this measure since James is producing bigger numbers than Kobe almost across the board (points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals). It may come as a surprise that the gap is so large, though, or that James’ current pace would challenge Wilt Chamberlain for the highest recorded PER in history. But remember, two of PER’s biggest weaknesses are that it doesn’t account much for defense and not at all for team impact. So let’s look at some stats that measure those areas.

Impact

+/- (basic): Bryant +10.4/48 minutes, James +16.6/48 minutes

+/- (on-court/off-court): Bryant + 8.6/48 minutes, James + 24.5/48 minutes

These are two different ways to use the +/- stat we discussed a couple weeks ago. The basic +/- stat tells us that the Cavaliers are more than 6 points/48 minutes more productive with LeBron on the floor than the Lakers are with Kobe on the floor. The on-court/off-court +/- tells us that the fall-off for the Cavs when LeBron is off the floor is tremendous, whereas for the Lakers Kobe’s presence on the court (as opposed to when a teammate is replacing him) is a positive but not nearly as large a positive as LeBron’s with respect to his teammates.

Offense and Defense

Ratings: ORTG: Bryant 116, James 120. DRTG: Bryant 106 (T 5th on Lakers), James 97 (T 1st on Cavs).

As we learned last week, these ratings tell us that James is a more efficient producer of points than Bryant (he produces four more points per 100 possessions), and that the Cavaliers’ defense is nine points stingier when James is on the floor than the Lakers’ defense is when Kobe is on the floor. The fact that LeBron’s defensive rating is tied for the best on the Cavs while Kobe’s is in the middle of the pack for the Lakers would also suggest that LeBron plays a larger role in his team’s defense than Kobe does for the Lakers.

Bottom line

As I always emphasize, stats can only answer the specific questions for which they have been designed, so don’t make them the whole of your argument. That said, these numbers indicate pretty emphatically that LeBron has been more statistically productive than Kobe, that LeBron has had a larger impact on leading a more successful team (when each are on the floor) with less teammate support, and that LeBron has been both more efficient on offense and a bigger part of a more successful defensive unit than Kobe has. Two counter-arguments could be that there are other stats that we could have used (but I haven’t covered yet), or that Kobe might be pacing himself more because he has better teammates (which isn’t statistically measurable). But for the things that are measurable, it looks like LeBron is building a commanding lead over Kobe in the “who’s the best?” showdown this season.

[AtLaS]

Nice research AHF, but like you said, the stats definitely do not tell the entire story.

The assist difference is one of the key differences in their respective PERs. Kobe plays in the triangle and LeBron is the primary playmaker. The triangle doesn't allow Kobe to dominate the ball that much and doesn't let him rack up as many assists. LeBron's blocks also add to this as well as his rebounds, but we can expect him to get more since he plays SF while Kobe is an SG. These simple things DRASTICALLY effect PER in a positive way for Bron.

There is a reason why the Lakers are 2nd in the NBA in assists per game and have one of the best offenses, yet their leading assist man is Kobe at around 5 per game. The Cavs are 24th in the NBA in assists and LeBron is their leader with 7+. Because their offenses are completely different.

Anyone who watches the Cavs offense knows that it involves LeBron dominating the ball with tons of P&R's. Kobe doesn't just dribble around the top of the key all game instead of rare instances. LeBron has a higher usage rate (32.6 to Kobe's 30.9) but it still doesn't completely measure it because most of Kobe's touches are quick touches or quick iso's. Usage rate is about number of touches, not time spent with the ball in which it is obvious LeBron has it much more. Kobe doesn't need to do that because the Lakers have a much better and structured offense.

I would expect their +/- to have a significant disparity because the Lakers are extremely deep and don't suffer as big a dropoff when Kobe sits, and they have a much better offensive system than the Cavs without LeBron so they can still get baskets.

Just looking at PER's and +/- really doesn't tell the entire story. I look at skillset and individual things that players do better rather than raw numbers. LeBron has improved his defense but I still don't see him as good as Kobe. Kobe is still a MUCH better shooter, free throw shooter, and post up player. LeBron is obviously much better driving the ball and probably the better passer, but I think Kobe could easily get 2 more assists per game if he were in LeBron's position.

Edited March 4, 2009 by AtLaS

[AHF]

Just looking at PER's and +/- really doesn't tell the entire story. I look at skillset and individual things that players do better rather than raw numbers. LeBron has improved his defense but I still don't see him as good as Kobe. Kobe is still a MUCH better shooter, free throw shooter, and post up player. LeBron is obviously much better driving the ball and probably the better passer, but I think Kobe could easily get 2 more assists per game if he were in LeBron's position.

I know I take LeBron if I am given the choice. With respect to shooting, I care most about one number: TS%.

Despite Kobe having less offensive responsibility and better teammates to open up shots for him, Kobe's TS% is .568. LeBron's TS% is significantly better at .588. That means that LeBron is the better shooter in my book because either he is taking much smarter shots than Kobe or he is just hitting them better than Kobe is.

I think it is obvious that LeBron is the better passer.

You and I will agree to disagree with their defensive prowess. I think Kobe's D is overrated at this point in his career. He is very good but not a shutdown defender. I put LeBron in the same category. Notably, when matched up head to head the numbers look good for LeBron and it isn't in the assist and block categories where you would predict:

2-2 Records for Both Players

LeBron

Points: 28.3 ppg

Assists: 6.3 apg

Rebounds: 9 rpg

Steals: 1.8 spg

Blocks: .5 bpg

Kobe

Points: 23.3 ppg

Assists: 6.3 apg

Rebounds: 6.5 rpg

Steals: .8 spg

Blocks: .5 bpg

[AtLaS]

I know I take LeBron if I am given the choice. With respect to shooting, I care most about one number: TS%.

Despite Kobe having less offensive responsibility and better teammates to open up shots for him, Kobe's TS% is .568. LeBron's TS% is significantly better at .588. That means that LeBron is the better shooter in my book because either he is taking much smarter shots than Kobe or he is just hitting them better than Kobe is.

I agree about the TS%. But, LeBron is much better driving so that's why he's got the advantage there. Kobe is the better FT shooter and 3pt shooter yet still trails LeBron. Regardless, at the end of the day a 2% difference is the equivalent of 1 extra shot made per 50 attempted.

I don't blame you for taking LeBron because he and Kobe both have a case for being the best in the game. I just take Kobe for the reasons I stated earlier and his killer instinct at the end of games. With the game on the line I take Kobe over anyone, and I trust him to make his clutch free throws. LeBron has been missing clutch free throws his entire career and considering his primary advantage is driving the ball, it's scary.

[AHF]

I don't blame you for taking LeBron because he and Kobe both have a case for being the best in the game. I just take Kobe for the reasons I stated earlier and his killer instinct at the end of games. With the game on the line I take Kobe over anyone, and I trust him to make his clutch free throws. LeBron has been missing clutch free throws his entire career and considering his primary advantage is driving the ball, it's scary.

For clutch free throws, I take Kobe too! But then I take Reggie Miller at his current age over either of them and I don't consider him the better player at this point. I just don't see that as the turning point. Both guys are great to have with the game on the line, but the slight edge to Kobe in that scenario doesn't offset the better rebounding, passing, scoring and other contributions Lebron provides for the rest of the game, IMO.

This is definitely a topic that a lot of NBA fans differ on. In my book, Lebron has surpassed Kobe at this point but Kobe's PR high spot will come first because he has a great team around him and should win 1-2 championships the next 2-3 years whereas Lebron's teammates aren't enough to elevate him to a title, IMO.

[AtLaS]

Both guys are great to have with the game on the line, but the slight edge to Kobe in that scenario doesn't offset the better rebounding, passing, scoring and other contributions Lebron provides for the rest of the game, IMO.

I would expect LeBron to be the better rebounder since he's a forward. But, I don't think it's fair to call LeBron the better scorer. Kobe just doesn't need to score as much. It's no coincidence that his scoring dropped under 30 after the addition of Gasol and a good team was put around him.

For clutch free throws, I take Kobe too! But then I take Reggie Miller at his current age over either of them and I don't consider him the better player at this point. I just don't see that as the turning point.

My point was that since LeBron's primary advantage is his ability to drive the ball, making free throws is EXTREMELY important since he's always going to the line in clutch situations.

Lebron's teammates aren't enough to elevate him to a title, IMO.

I just feel like defense is so underrated the NBA. LeBron sucked the entire series against the Celtics (except game 7) yet they were still extremely competitive in every game because they were also playing great defense on Boston. When the Celtics did the same thing to Kobe (except one game), the Lakers couldn't win because they aren't nearly as effective defensively. People always act like LeBron has no teammates but the fact is that he has one of the best defensive teams in the league around him. A great defensive team paired with a great scorer (usually with shooters around them) can take a team a long way, as we saw with Iverson and the Sixers.

[AHF]

I just feel like defense is so underrated the NBA. LeBron sucked the entire series against the Celtics (except game 7) yet they were still extremely competitive in every game because they were also playing great defense on Boston. When the Celtics did the same thing to Kobe (except one game), the Lakers couldn't win because they aren't nearly as effective defensively. People always act like LeBron has no teammates but the fact is that he has one of the best defensive teams in the league around him. A great defensive team paired with a great scorer (usually with shooters around them) can take a team a long way, as we saw with Iverson and the Sixers.

I totally agree that great defense is critically important, but I have to wonder who are the great defenders on their team?

Z? No. Solid defender at best.

Wally? Subpar.

Mo Williams? Subpar.

Daniel Gibson? Adequate.

I'll grant that Delonte West and Anderson Varajao are excellent defenders, although they are well behind Lebron in defensive efficiency. He leads his team by a long way in that category. Kobe ranks 5th on his team in defensive efficiency.

Lebron scores more efficiently - that is why he is the better scorer. It isn't because he scores more points but scoring more points and doing so more efficiently qualifies as being the better scorer. I can't imagine what other standard you could use.

[AtLaS]

I totally agree that great defense is critically important, but I have to wonder who are the great defenders on their team?

Z? No. Solid defender at best.

Wally? Subpar.

Mo Williams? Subpar.

Daniel Gibson? Adequate.

I'll grant that Delonte West and Anderson Varajao are excellent defenders, although they are well behind Lebron in defensive efficiency. He leads his team by a long way in that category. Kobe ranks 5th on his team in defensive efficiency.

Big Z is actually a pretty good defender IMO. They also have Ben Wallace who is older, but still and effective defender. Regardless, they play GREAT as a team defensive unit.

LeBron has definitely improved his defense this season into actually being a good defender, but they were a great defensive team even before that and that is huge.

And, I agree that LeBron is a good defender, but defensive efficiency is just a bad rating. LeBron this season has a better rating than Jordan, Pippen, and Payton in their primes. That is ridiculous. Honestly there is no stat that is good for rating defense other than watching the games.

It isn't because he scores more points but scoring more points and doing so more efficiently qualifies as being the better scorer. I can't imagine what other standard you could use.

LeBron scores 0.4 more points in 1.1 more minutes. Per 36/48 the difference is negligible. They are so close that you really can't definitively claim one is better than the other IMO.

[AHF]

I agree about the statistical limitations of defensive ratings, but my eyes tell me that Lebron has become a real impact defender and Kobe has fallen off a bit in the last year or so. He rarely matches up with and shuts down an elite swingman anymore (or so it seems from my ad hoc observations).

I don't think we are going to convince each other on this one but it has been fun to talk about. Perhaps if they meet in the finals one will firmly put his stamp on it this year.

[AtLaS]

I agree about the statistical limitations of defensive ratings, but my eyes tell me that Lebron has become a real impact defender and Kobe has fallen off a bit in the last year or so. He rarely matches up with and shuts down an elite swingman anymore (or so it seems from my ad hoc observations).

I don't think we are going to convince each other on this one but it has been fun to talk about. Perhaps if they meet in the finals one will firmly put his stamp on it this year.

That would be awesome, it's actually my dream finals!

[AHF]

That would be awesome, it's actually my dream finals!

My "dream" finals ends up with the Hawks winning it all!

Lakers/Cavs is more realistic!

[Guest]

I would expect their +/- to have a significant disparity because the Lakers are extremely deep and don't suffer as big a dropoff when Kobe sits, and they have a much better offensive system than the Cavs without LeBron so they can still get baskets.

For on-court/off-court that is the case. For basic +/- (the version that the NBA.com box shows), the only thing that matters is on-court performance. So when X is replaced in the line-up, the score in the game is irrelevant for X's +/-. When X enters the game, then +/- is kept track.