Is Josh Smith this generation's Charles Barkley?

[Buzzard]

The mid-late 90's was the weakest era outside of the youth era in 90's-early 2000's era. This era is vastly superior to both of those even though the Bulls and Jazz could compete at a high level anytime in NBA history since they are great teams.

1. Generation Y has the largest popl (73 mil) compared to Gen X (40 mil) and we also have a talented international talent pool.

2. I agree with the Bo comment, an elite athlete is an elite athlete in any decade. Wilt Chamberlain is superior to all of today's centers outside of Dwight athletically. What the largest pool helps is the 3-12 players, not the studs like Kobe and LeBron who are a rarity.

3. The NBA has more teams today but the talent has caught up to the teams, in the 90's that wasn't the case. You had teams who best player was Greg Anthony. Today, the worst team in basketball had Brook Lopez and Devin Harris who are legit players unlike Greg who was just a role player.

You pick one bad team as your reference point. Indiana won 32 games last season with Danny Granger and Troy Murphy as their stud players. They would not have stood a snowballs chance in hell of doing that in 1987. And your comparison was originally the players of the 80s vs todays players.

[Joker]

You pick one bad team as your reference point. Indiana won 32 games last season with Danny Granger and Troy Murphy as their stud players. They would not have stood a snowballs chance in hell of doing that in 1987. And your comparison was originally the players of the 80s vs todays players.

The Pacers aren't a bad team, it's just they do not have a superstar or a legit #2. Ford, Hibbert, Murphy, and Hansbrough is not that bad, just isn't that good. I wouldn't say they would kill in the 80's or do better but I think Murphy game is more suited for the 80's than today's game. Murphy>>Koncak.

Edited July 25, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[Sothron]

Teams are much better defensively and the talent pool is much stronger. Guys like Craig Ehlo would never get good mins in today's game. This game is all about athleticism and skill with an international pool of players. Not comparable to the 80s.

Guys like Ehlo would average 20 or more a game in today's game because he could actually shoot. He also was a good defender. I love how people magically think today's game is better than yesterday's game.

[Joker]

Guys like Ehlo would average 20 or more a game in today's game because he could actually shoot. He also was a good defender. I love how people magically think today's game is better than yesterday's game.

:temperature:

[foeteen14]

I wouldn't say this era is better defensively.... i wouldn't even say its really all that close either. I think Josh would get abused in a lot of those 80s/90s defenses... especially against the PFs of that period.

there were only a couple of good defensive teams in the eighties a few more in the nineties, every other team sucked defensively. they were historically bad at defense. I always watch the old school games when they are on espn classic, and it's always amazing how bad the players were defensively. i didn't realize it back then when watching the games, but doing a side by side comparison shows the lack of defense. so many wide open shots, players routinely let star players do what ever they wanted, i'm like put a hand up, push him, do something. they offered no resistance

[foeteen14]

Guys like Ehlo would average 20 or more a game in today's game because he could actually shoot. He also was a good defender. I love how people magically think today's game is better than yesterday's game.

the best ehlo would do today is 3rd man off the bench. he wouldn't be able to get his shot off. and he definetely couldn't guard ANYONE. think jj redick

[foeteen14]

People significantly overrate today's athleticism.

Bill Russel was probably more athletic 40 years ago than 90% of todays players (Bill Russel was ranked 7th worldwide in the high jump).

Is Nash Athletic? Dirk? Gasol? Varejao? Lee? Kidd?

athleticism does not only include how high you can jump. me and a buddy of mine always debate this. he says joe johnson isn't great athletically, i always disagree saying joe is not a jumper, but he is very athletic. everybody in the game today is a great athlete (everybody that matters).

[Sothron]

the best ehlo would do today is 3rd man off the bench. he wouldn't be able to get his shot off. and he definetely couldn't guard ANYONE. think jj redick

I love this kind o historical revisionism. Ehlo guarded players just as fast and as athletic as today's players and did he a good job on them. There's a reason he's remembered as a great shooter and good defender.

[Joker]

I love this kind o historical revisionism. Ehlo guarded players just as fast and as athletic as today's players and did he a good job on them. There's a reason he's remembered as a great shooter and good defender.

Ehlo is Kurt Hinrich lite but shoots better. He's no defensive monster on the perimeter like Cooper or Dumars or even very good, just good. He wasn't that good of the defender, just pesky and seriously benefited from the hand checking rule. Wasn't the player Hinrich is either, he just wasn't that good, he was below average comparing him to today's game and rules. There wasn't guys near as quick or big as today's at that position in the 80's. You had MJ and Ron Harper but most wasn't doing it like that. Most SG were white guys who can shoot lights out. Redick would have been perfect in the 80's. The Bulls and Cavs tried to turn MJ and Harper into PG's in the mold of Magic. No one wanted to play guys who can't shoot at SG till Chicago finally pulled the plug on MJ at PG and made Pippen a Point Forward.

Edited July 26, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[dlpin]

there were only a couple of good defensive teams in the eighties a few more in the nineties, every other team sucked defensively. they were historically bad at defense. I always watch the old school games when they are on espn classic, and it's always amazing how bad the players were defensively. i didn't realize it back then when watching the games, but doing a side by side comparison shows the lack of defense. so many wide open shots, players routinely let star players do what ever they wanted, i'm like put a hand up, push him, do something. they offered no resistance

Huh? Teams were a lot more physical defensively back then. Hand check rule, anyone?

The 90s knicks still have the best defensive rating of all time.

the best ehlo would do today is 3rd man off the bench. he wouldn't be able to get his shot off. and he definetely couldn't guard ANYONE. think jj redick

I think it's funny people are so focused on Ehlo. The best he would do today is 3rd man off the bench? Funny, because for most of his career that is what he was back then. His career mpg average is 24.

athleticism does not only include how high you can jump. me and a buddy of mine always debate this. he says joe johnson isn't great athletically, i always disagree saying joe is not a jumper, but he is very athletic. everybody in the game today is a great athlete (everybody that matters).

And who wasn't a great athlete in the past? And no, Shaq, big Z, etc aren't great athletes today.

Ehlo is Kurt Hinrich lite but shoots better. He's no defensive monster on the perimeter like Cooper or Dumars or even very good, just good. He wasn't that good of the defender, just pesky and seriously benefited from the hand checking rule. Wasn't the player Hinrich is either, he just wasn't that good, he was below average comparing him to today's game and rules. There wasn't guys near as quick or big as today's at that position in the 80's. You had MJ and Ron Harper but most wasn't doing it like that. Most SG were white guys who can shoot lights out. Redick would have been perfect in the 80's. The Bulls and Cavs tried to turn MJ and Harper into PG's in the mold of Magic. No one wanted to play guys who can't shoot at SG till Chicago finally pulled the plug on MJ at PG and made Pippen a Point Forward.

There wasn't guys near as quick or big as today's at SG?

Besides the ones you mentioned, you had Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Gerald Wilkins, Rolando Blackman, Willie Anderson were all 6'6 or taller.

[Sothron]

Ehlo is Kurt Hinrich lite but shoots better. He's no defensive monster on the perimeter like Cooper or Dumars or even very good, just good. He wasn't that good of the defender, just pesky and seriously benefited from the hand checking rule. Wasn't the player Hinrich is either, he just wasn't that good, he was below average comparing him to today's game and rules. There wasn't guys near as quick or big as today's at that position in the 80's. You had MJ and Ron Harper but most wasn't doing it like that. Most SG were white guys who can shoot lights out. Redick would have been perfect in the 80's. The Bulls and Cavs tried to turn MJ and Harper into PG's in the mold of Magic. No one wanted to play guys who can't shoot at SG till Chicago finally pulled the plug on MJ at PG and made Pippen a Point Forward.

Its when I read posts like this that I realize how young some of the fans are these days. I watched Ehlo. He was a good defender and a great shooter. Put him in today's game and he scores 20 plus a game easily and his size and reach are going to give players problems today just like it did back then.

[Joker]

Huh? Teams were a lot more physical defensively back then. Hand check rule, anyone?

The 90s knicks still have the best defensive rating of all time.

I think it's funny people are so focused on Ehlo. The best he would do today is 3rd man off the bench? Funny, because for most of his career that is what he was back then. His career mpg average is 24.

And who wasn't a great athlete in the past? And no, Shaq, big Z, etc aren't great athletes today.

There wasn't guys near as quick or big as today's at SG?

Besides the ones you mentioned, you had Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Gerald Wilkins, Rolando Blackman, Willie Anderson were all 6'6 or taller.

Clyde was a SG/SF and played some PG like Jamal does for us.

Wilkins??? *?

Blackman was an elite shooter, he defines my very point.

Anderson was in the 90's with Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller and Miller too is an elite shooter.

The majority of guys are not as quick as the guys today and even some of the ones you mention aren't as quick.

Its when I read posts like this that I realize how young some of the fans are these days. I watched Ehlo. He was a good defender and a great shooter. Put him in today's game and he scores 20 plus a game easily and his size and reach are going to give players problems today just like it did back then.

Sothron, you are totally in the world of nostalgia, you might have watched him but I do not think you recall what you watched all to well. You sound like those guys who combine MJ's athletic ability at 25 with his BBIQ and skills of the mid-late 90's and create this Super-Jordan like figure. Ehlo was never that good man. He was a 6'7 sloot footed guy who relied heavily on hand checking and BBIQ with sharp shooting skills to have an impact in the NBA. In today's game, he wouldn't stand a chance as a starter. You got guys off the bench like Mo Evans who would take Ehlo's lunch w/o Ehlo handchecking.

Handchecking rules- The end of the sharpshooting white man being a starter in the NBA.

Edited July 26, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[dlpin]

Clyde was a SG/SF and played some PG like Jamal does for us.

Wilkins??? *?

Blackman was an elite shooter, he defines my very point.

Anderson was in the 90's with Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller and Miller too is an elite shooter.

The majority of guys are not as quick as the guys today and even some of the ones you mention aren't as quick.

Sothron, you are totally in the world of nostalgia, you might have watched him but I do not think you recall what you watched all to well. You sound like those guys who combine MJ's athletic ability at 25 with his BBIQ and skills of the mid-late 90's and create this Super-Jordan like figure. Ehlo was never that good man. He was a 6'7 sloot footed guy who relied heavily on hand checking and BBIQ with sharp shooting skills to have an impact in the NBA. In today's game, he wouldn't stand a chance as a starter. You got guys off the bench like Mo Evans who would take Ehlo's lunch w/o Ehlo handchecking.

Handchecking rules- The end of the sharpshooting white man being a starter in the NBA.

You talk about Ehlo as if being just a rotation guy nowadays would be a major downgrade, when that is what he was for most of his career back then.

The idea that the game is vastly more physical, that players are taller, etc. etc today is just silly. Hell, average height today is smaller than 25 years ago.

http://www.nba.com/news/survey_2004.html

[Chickenstanley]

Barkley was probably the greatest low post force (for his height-range) that ever played the game. He could also shoot and dribble.

Smoove cannot do any of the above even average --- at this point in his career.

No one in today's league could have effectively guarded Kareem, McHale or Hakeem down low.

No one in today's league compares to Jordan. (His hands were the difference)

No one or no team in today's league could have prevented Larry Bird from scoring.

Or Magic Johnson from running the fast-break effectively w/ that same Lakers team.

No team in today's league would have consistently beaten the 80's Laker's, Celtics or Sixers.

No one in today's league would have been able to defend Andrew Toney.

Or Dr. J on the break.

Or stop George Gervin from averaging around 30 per game.

No one would prevent (a healthy) Bill Walton from rebounding at will.

No one in today's league is close to the rebounder that Dennis Rodman was ---- regardless of size.

No one would push around Artis Gilmore.

Or not been susceptable to having their pocket picked by Clyde Frazier.

It's just not the case. Them cat's could flat-out play, man! These coddled little millionaire, video playing game playing, fundamental-less P***y's these days would be in for a rude awakening if they ever faced the MEN who used to to rule the NBA ---with all of their so-called "athleticism".

CS

[Joker]

You talk about Ehlo as if being just a rotation guy nowadays would be a major downgrade, when that is what he was for most of his career back then.

The idea that the game is vastly more physical, that players are taller, etc. etc today is just silly. Hell, average height today is smaller than 25 years ago.

http://www.nba.com/news/survey_2004.html

No one said the game is more physical today or the players today are taller, we said the players are bigger and a lot more athletic on average. Let's stay on subject and stop putting words in ppl mouth.

[Buzzard]

No one said the game is more physical today or the players today are taller, we said the players are bigger and a lot more athletic on average. Let's stay on subject and stop putting words in ppl mouth.

The problem with your hypothesis is you are saying just because their is a deeper pool of athletes for more teams to play on that equates to better basketball teams. If that was the case every guy in summer league with great physical mesurements would have been a top 20 pick. But the reality is quite a few of those players where taken in the 2nd round. Alabi, Lawal, and Whiteside for big men and Stephenson for guards right off the top of my head.

Clearly this has to be a misconception on your part since some of the greatest teams in the history of the NBA played throughout the 80s. And from 1980 to 2010 is only 30 years. If you were talking about the 50s or 60s concerning size, strength, and speed you would have a better point. One other thing to note is American males, for the 1st time since measurements have been kept up, actually got shorter this past decade.

The place to really track the difference in athletic performance through generations is in track and field. When there is a huge disparity in the world records it usually occurs over a period of 40 to 50 years; with 50 showing large differences in all events. 30 years is on the fringe of hardly any differences at all in world records for strength and speed in track and field.

Which this leads up to one more point I would like to make concerning speed. Players were not taught how to get out of the blocks, stay low, and raise up at the appropriate time during timed sprints in the 80s like they are now. I could not imagine Charles Barkley going to a sports clinic to learn how to sprint better or run agility drills better. Now if you do not go its either because you are a top five pick, have something to hide, or an injury.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Buzzard

[Mdizzle5]

Barkley was probably the greatest low post force (for his height-range) that ever played the game. He could also shoot and dribble.

Smoove cannot do any of the above even average --- at this point in his career.

No one in today's league could have effectively guarded Kareem, McHale or Hakeem down low.

No one in today's league compares to Jordan. (His hands were the difference)

No one or no team in today's league could have prevented Larry Bird from scoring.

Or Magic Johnson from running the fast-break effectively w/ that same Lakers team.

No team in today's league would have consistently beaten the 80's Laker's, Celtics or Sixers.

No one in today's league would have been able to defend Andrew Toney.

Or Dr. J on the break.

Or stop George Gervin from averaging around 30 per game.

No one would prevent (a healthy) Bill Walton from rebounding at will.

NNo one in today's league is close to the rebounder that Dennis Rodman was ---- regardless of size.

No one would push around Artis Gilmore.

Or not been susceptable to having their pocket picked by Clyde Frazier.

It's just not the case. Them cat's could flat-out play, man! These coddled little millionaire, video playing game playing, fundamental-less P***y's these days would be in for a rude awakening if they ever faced the MEN who used to to rule the NBA ---with all of their so-called "athleticism".

CS

This is why i say lets just find Dennis Rodman and sign him for cheap. ;) lol. seriously though... maybe he could teach josh a thing or two.

[foeteen14]

Barkley was probably the greatest low post force (for his height-range) that ever played the game. He could also shoot and dribble.

Smoove cannot do any of the above even average --- at this point in his career.

No one in today's league could have effectively guarded Kareem, McHale or Hakeem down low.

No one in today's league compares to Jordan. (His hands were the difference)

No one or no team in today's league could have prevented Larry Bird from scoring.

Or Magic Johnson from running the fast-break effectively w/ that same Lakers team.

No team in today's league would have consistently beaten the 80's Laker's, Celtics or Sixers.

No one in today's league would have been able to defend Andrew Toney.

Or Dr. J on the break.

Or stop George Gervin from averaging around 30 per game.

No one would prevent (a healthy) Bill Walton from rebounding at will.

No one in today's league is close to the rebounder that Dennis Rodman was ---- regardless of size.

No one would push around Artis Gilmore.

Or not been susceptable to having their pocket picked by Clyde Frazier.

It's just not the case. Them cat's could flat-out play, man! These coddled little millionaire, video playing game playing, fundamental-less P***y's these days would be in for a rude awakening if they ever faced the MEN who used to to rule the NBA ---with all of their so-called "athleticism".

CS

i hear what you are saying, i just don't see it. i'm not saying the guys you mentchened weren't great players, and couldn't play in today's league. i'm just saying they wouldn't be nearly as effective. the guys today are just too athletic. they are all around athletes. i do believe the players today depend on their athleticism too much instead of being more fundamental. but no matter how fundamental you are, if you can't beat your guy off the dribble, cant create enough space to get off a decent shot, and then you are not quick or strong enough to guard your man, you can't be an effective nba player today. go back and watch some of the games, the number of uncontested shots is ridiculous.

[dlpin]

No one said the game is more physical today or the players today are taller, we said the players are bigger and a lot more athletic on average. Let's stay on subject and stop putting words in ppl mouth.

A lot more athletic is also false.

Bill Russel competed nationally on the 400 meters in track and field. He was the 7th best high jumper in the world. His best time in the 400 meter dash over 50 years ago would still be good enough to put him in the top 30 in the SEC and top 100 in the NCAA. From a guy who played center...

I mean, how can people look at Shaq and all that blubber still effective as a center and talk about the importance of athleticism? How can people talk so much about how so much more athletic players are today when compared to just 20 years ago when some of the top centers in the league are Pau Gasol, David Lee and Chris Kaman?

[foeteen14]

A lot more athletic is also false.

Bill Russel competed nationally on the 400 meters in track and field. He was the 7th best high jumper in the world. His best time in the 400 meter dash over 50 years ago would still be good enough to put him in the top 30 in the SEC and top 100 in the NCAA. From a guy who played center...

I mean, how can people look at Shaq and all that blubber still effective as a center and talk about the importance of athleticism? How can people talk so much about how so much more athletic players are today when compared to just 20 years ago when some of the top centers in the league are Pau Gasol, David Lee and Chris Kaman?

shaq is no longer athletic, so he is no longer effective. i'll say it again, there's a difference between being able to jump high and being athletic. russel's 400 would probably be about 50th best in the nba now. and please don't tell me that guys in the nba today don't jump higher than russel did. yes there were freakish athletes back in the day, the only thing is, they were not being guarded by other freakish athletes. please watch some games from the 70's 80's and 90's, and then honestly tell me you don't see the difference. you have to compare the games side by side.