NO ONE wants to come to a loser

[phoostal]

This is the point I'm trying to make. People mention we can get the likes of QRich and Martin. Is that an upgrade over Reef and Ratlif? If it is slightly. It might make a game or two difference.

Next Deisel tells me if I wanted to keep Wallace so bad we can go after him this off season what is the difference. The difference is that this team is worse off now than it was with him. Why would he want to come back to a place like this? A mess. With him we could have had a chance to make a run for the last playoff seed. With that opportunity comes a lot of benefits.

People use the old excuse of who just wants to be an 8th playoff seed. Well the answer is no one. But, I'm looking into the future and being 8th seed this year will help us in future years. Because we will have cap room and picks. But what being the 8th seed brings is credibility to top free agents that want to come here. It's too show them that this team is an up and comer. Whether Wallace decided to stay or go we would still have that credibility of being up and comer with that playoff spot.

Deisel take a look a round it is easy to see how the Hawks could make that final playoff spot with Wallace. Teams from 8 on down are playing horrible. With the only exception Cleveland. It was a possibility.

People on this site don't know what losing does to a franchise. Well we are about to find out. After 5 to 10 years of having cap space and no one coming here. Let me know what you think.

When we get draft picks for four years do you think they will want to re-up to sign with a loser?

So we sign QRich and Martin. Now we will be stuck with their bad contracts for the next 6 to 7 years. Then what happens do they get traded for cap space and draft picks because the team isn't winning.

Everyone clamors about Denver. They got lucky. Let's see if they sustain it. They got lucky Detroit didn't take Carmelo. They got lucky that V. Lenard is playing his best basketball. They got lucky that Camby is healthy. They do deserve credit for Nene and to recruit Miller. But, does Denver really look like a Western Conference power. Come on the Hawks swept them this year.

Look at NY. They did a make over to their roster and it wasn't through cap space and picks. Now they might add Wallace next year. You know why? Because people are viewing NY as an up and comer in the East. Who's to say they won't be the beast of the east next year. That seems to be a good rebuilding process.

The Lakers Bryant(Hornets), Shaq (Magic), Fox (Celtics), Payton (Sonics) and Malone(Jazz). No draft picks from these guys. And when their time is done, I bet you they don't rebuild through cap space and picks.

Winners don't rebuild they reload. Losers keep force feeding you a rebuilding plan.

I'm glad some of us are buying into it.

I hope I'm wrong. It sucks to be a Hawks. But, I guess I have to keep convincing myself. We will be good. Since I'm 30 I hope I will be alive to see it.

P

[drzachary]

I can't really imagine any FA who is currently thinking:

"Wow, those Hawks are pathetic. No way I'd go there!"

instead thinking, had we not done the Sheed trade:

"Hmmm, those Hawks sure are pathetic. They did keep Rasheed for 28 meaningless games, though. Sign me up!"

--

However, with a bonus pick, you can get players to come here whether they want to or not (barring extreme KVH, Francis-type scenarios.)

[phoostal]

Please explain to me the logic of why they would come here now, after the points I discussed. Please tell me something to contradict the points I made. If you can? I know your snide comments are cute and gets a nice laugh from people that read them(to be honest I do enjoy your sense of humor). But, please disprove my thoughts. Maybe I'm just not seeing some things that others are seeing. I would like for you to help me out.

Players are more apt to come to a team that is winning than losing. We would be winning more with Sheed then without him, thus no one wants to come to a loser.

P

[drzachary]

Oh, don't get me wrong!

I don't think they want to come here. I'd give a hypothetical marquee FA, Bobe Kryant, a 5-10% chance coming here. Maybe I'd up that to 6-11%, had Rasheed stayed here.

The assertation that "free agents don't want to come here" is very valid. However, I feel that this holds true regardless of whether Rasheed stayed or not.

Thus, why not get a pick?

There's no way I could ever "disprove your thoughts." They're yours, as mine are my own.

[phoostal]

Fair Enough. I think we can all agree to disagree. But for some to say this is the right way to go, well only time will tell.

I just think through trades(actually keeping players that are good in a trade), some draft picks(they don't have to be top 5 picks, like now) and some cap space is how we can rebuild instead of only relying on the draft. That's the only thing we have, because I just feel no one that matters in free agency is going to sign here. The losing is going to be a monkey on this franchise's back. In every aspect from resigning draft picks, free agents, fans that come, etc.

But, we will see if Billy's way is right. Hell we have no choice.

P

[drzachary]

Exactly! We really have no choice but to go along with BK (at least for now -- he may be canned?), so all the warbling we chickadees can muster is all for naught.

While I would have had a great deal of enjoyment watching Tar Heel 'Sheed tear up the court at the Phil, I will derive an equal, if completely different, kind of pleasure from watching the motley crew Stotts runs at opponents for the rest of the year.

Laughter is the best medicine!

[Diesel]

In the offseason, we will be seen as a winner. We will have a high lottery pick and enough money to put together a squad. Did you see what happened when Orlando did it a few years back? Did you see what happened with Denver last yr.

Give me a list of reasons why a FA would not want to come here.

I will give you my reasons why they would...

1. Money.

Money makes the league go round. We got it. All the free agents want it.

2. City.

Atlanta is not Salt Lake City. Atlanta is the best city in the world. It is a diverse city that reaches out to everybody. It's a sports town too. Last time I checked, Mike Vick was the most marketed player in the NFL.

3. New Owners.

The new owners are putting their finger print on things. Out with the old regime, in with the new.

4. Opportunity.

Any FA would be able to have an opportunity to play his game.

I hate to sound cliche' but just wait.

[Admin]

Beacuse I actually agree with all of that.......recently I have found myself agreeing with you and BHD....what gives?

You are definitely right on those points. Too bad that so many of these negative nancys werent around here when Orlando was building their team through FA.....because I sure do remember a slew of people complaining that we should be doing exactly what they were doing......and thats showing up at T-Macs doorstep at 1201 of FA opening up so that we could sign a superstar........well folks here is our chance to do the very same thing with a guy as good or realistically better in Kobe. Plus still have room to go out and get another star player to pair him with AND a VERY HIGH lotto pick that could become the next KG or Duncan in Howard.

[drzachary]

I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that you're right, Diesel! We may need a head coach that's a great salesman to do it, like Orlando had. Maybe the same coach that Orlando had.

[Diesel]

When you look at what Kobe really wants and who Kobe is, I say we have a very strong chance to get him. First of all, we have more money than anybody else. Secondly, we're in the East. I know we will be competing with Phoenix, LAC, and Denver.. But those are all Western teams who will eventually have to face LAL, SAC, Minn, and Dallas on their way... Thirdly, we can get Kobe anything he wants... If Kobe says I want to be the focus of the offense, we can make that happen. If Kobe says I want to have a team that runs, we can do that. If Kobe says, I want a certain coach.. .We can give him that. The point is that we have the only customizable team.

Still.

The one thing about Orlando that was so awesome (and really this played out in NJ this yr). Was the fact that Orlando had enough cash to get 2 big FAs and a Mid level FA with their draft pick (mike Miller). Well, we're in that position. If we wanted to, we can offer Kobe/Sheed 26 million dollars (with the trade of JT) and we can bring in another FA plus a high draft pick.

Orlando's failing was the injured Grant Hill and Duncan deciding to stay in SA. Well, Kobe's probably leaving LAL.

[Diesel]

I don't know if Doc is our man. I mean he might be, but I think Doc would have problems getting a Star like Kobe or Tmac. Still, I would prefer him over Scott.

[phoostal]

We will see but lets compare the situation of Atlanta with others that have cap space.

Other players Detroit, Denver, Phoenix, Chicago, Utah, LA Clippers and Atlanta.

Money, they all have it. Detroit only has 10 million but that is still enough to make an impact.

City, hate to say this but all those cities can hold their own to Atlanta, with the exception of Utah

Ownership, Detroit, Denver, Phoenix and Utah all have good ownership. Who knows what kind of owners we have yet? So it's not as stable as the above mentioned.

Opportunity, all teams can offer that to a player.

I give Atlanta an edge over Utah and Chicago, but thats it.

With limited free agents this year we won't get anyone of significance.

We will probably overpay for Richardson and Martin then be stuck trading them down the road for picks and cap space.

I hope I'm wrong and you are right this summer Deisel. But your prediction of Big Dog being a hit in Philly isn't really ringing true right now so you maybe wrong on this one as well, but thats another story for another time.

As you said we will wait and see. Besides we have no other option, but to do so. Let's hope Knight knows something we don't like he is getting Allen, Kobe and TMac in the next two years.

P

[phoostal]

The difference between Orlando and us was that the year before Orlando finished at 500 or a game or two below 500. Barely missing the playoffs. It was Doc's first year and it was the year they pushed the mantra of "Heart and Hustle".

What is this team going to push we are the worse NBA team in the history of the sport? This is why it was beneficial to keep Wallace and not just tank the season.

Believe me I know what Orlando did that summer I was covering the team when Shaq and Penny were drafted up until they signed TMAC and Hill. It was part of my summer internships and part time jobs with the local radio station.

We will see what they can pitch to these free agents. I hope I'm wrong nobody wants to see Atlanta win more than me. I'm sure you all feel that way. I just wouldn't be saying the way Knight is doing is so great and the way to go.

Everyone keeps shrugging off that it isn't important to win and look competitive while doing so. Showing promise. This team isn't going to this and they will feel the affects.

P

[Diesel]

Actually,

Orlando's situation and ours are very similar. Rebuilding didn't take place with the draft and free agency. Rebuilding started with the destruction of Orlando's old team:

Penny, D Scott, Nick Anderson, Everybody but Darryl Armstrong was traded away the year before Doc got there. Doc took over a team of guys who nobody thought would win a game... Much like what we have now. These guys were playing for nothing but their NBA lives. B. Wallace was a guy who went undrafted was picked up by Washington and was on his way out when Doc got him. Atkins was nothing special. Monty Williams was a journeyman. These guys played HARD. They played so hard that they won the respect of many around the league. However, they were what they were.. Scrubs that Orlando picked up in order to secure enough Capspace to go after Hill and Duncan.

So when you look at the rebuild of Orlando.. Start at the DESTRUCTION.. Penny, Anderson, Scott, Outlaw, Grant all going somewhere else.

[phoostal]

Yes, but the difference is they won. We aren't going to win. That has been my whole point you have to win. They were winning games. We are not going to be winning games and thus we have the losers label.

[Diesel]

The difference is they threw away the whole Year for an opportunity.

They could have easily kept Penny, Anderson, Scott, Outlaw, and all those guys and tried to win 40 games, make the playoffs and lose in the first round. However, they decided to trade all their big names for Scrubbs and ending contracts.

PHOO, THEY DIDN'T CARE ABOUT WINNING

Winning was just a coincidence... It's something that happened because of good coaching. They were in the midst of a rebuild. They're plan was to take advantage of the biggest FA class that the league had ever seen and THEY DID It.

In that way... There is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE.

You are here crying about us missing an opportunity to win 30 games, get a 17 pick in the draft and putting together another losing season next year??

Come on Phoo.... I know you're smarter than that.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Yes, but the difference is they won. We aren't going to win. That has been my whole point you have to win. They were winning games. We are not going to be winning games and thus we have the losers label.

---

The Chicago Bulls were losers when the drafted Michael Jordan. They were losers for several seasons until they surrounded him with the right parts. Then they won 6 championships.

The San Antonio Spurs were losers when they drafted Tim Duncan who immediately brought them back to a winning team and 2 championships.

The Rockets were losers (they won 14 games the year before they drafted Sampson) and drafted Ralph Sampson and Hakeem Olajuwon in consecutive drafts. Hakeem led the team to 2 championships.

The Pistons were losers (they won 21, 12 and 30 games the three years before Thomas was drafted) and they drafted Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, etc. and wound up winning 2 championships.

The Celtics won only 29 and 32 games the years before they drafted Bird and then McHale and Parish and wound up winning 3 championships.

The Sixers won 30, 9, 25, and 34 games leading up to their pick of Julius Erving in the draft. They later acquired Moses Malone and won 1 championship.

The Lakers are the exception and were good when they signed Shaq and then drafted Kobe Bryant (they drafted him in the same way that the Bucks drafted Ray Allen - a draft day trade). Likewise, the Lakers won their previous championships under the direction of Magic Johnson, a player they drafted #1 overall in the draft. They also drafted Worthy, Scott, etc. and traded for Kareem but Magic was the key to those Laker championships. The Lakers are the exception to the rule and had Jerry West doing things no one else could do.

However, all these teams involved key draft picks and almost all of them involved teams that played so badly that they were near the top of the lottery.

You HAVE to have a superstar to win a championship in the NBA. A group of good players just doesn't cut it like it does in baseball (see Angels) or football (see Patriots).

The Hawks were never going to acquire a superstar as long as they kept Shareef, Ratliff and/or Wallace on the team, IMO. The Hawks current direction gives them their best shot at a true superstar - something Hawks fans haven't seen in over a decade.

[phoostal]

Listen it may have been coincidence, but the fact is they won. Wether they wanted to or not. They won. That's why it was attractive to go to Orlando. They won. Then you factored everything else. Draft picks, cap space, no state income tax, the weather, etc.

Do you actually think free agents would have gone to Orlando if they were the running joke in the league? Come on I know you are smarter than that. People hyped up Orlando before that off season. Because they were winning. Look at the job Doc Rivers did. Those guys are young and only going to get better with the draft picks and cap space. This is what everyone was saying. Winning created this positive press. Not losing and that is what the Hawks will be doing.

You aren't seeing the fact that making the playoffs or coming close tells free agents such as Allen, Bryant, and TMAC superstars that hey this team may not be as bad as everyone makes them out to be they just made the playoffs last year (or came close) they have money to pay me, they have some young upcoming players and draft picks. Then the rest is gravy. Like the new coach, owner, etc.

Winning changes the way people view the franchise. Everyone keeps underestimating that fact.

P

[phoostal]

The Bulls a bad argument. The Bulls didn't have cap space. What free agents did they attract to play with Jordan when they first drafted him. I will help you out none. Things didn't start happening until they started to win.

The Spurs they had one losing year before Duncan. Robinson was injured. Then they lucked out and won the lottery. Once again a bad example.

All your other example prove yes you can rebuild through the draft but you aren't going to get any good free agents till you win.

Not to mention the draft for all of the examples you gave was more a sure thing than it is now.

When you drafted in the top 10 selections most of the time you were going to get a star player. There were some exceptions but for the most part you were going to get an all star type player.

Now a days who knows what you are going to get because you have too many variables: Do I gamble on a college kid, high school kid or foreigner?

Thus you may get an all star picking 27 before you do picking 3. Now your chances may increase at 3, but there are no guarantees now a days compared to the 80's. Which are the examples you gave me.

P

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Thus you may get an all star picking 27 before you do picking 3. Now your chances may increase at 3, but there are no guarantees now a days compared to the 80's. Which are the examples you gave me.

P

---

I gave you the history of EVERY SINGLE team that has won a championship since the 1970s straight through last season's Spurs.

The point is that to win a championship you need to get a true superstar and most of the teams don't get that true superstar through FA, they do it through the draft or via a trade.

That means, IMO, that you should do what you can to maximize your shot at a superstar as opposed to really worrying what FAs are going to think.

If Howard becomes the next KG or next Kobe or next Jermaine ONeal, etc. then the Hawks will be able to attract good FAs.

Other than Shaq, no FA has really changed the direction of any franchise in the last twenty years so far as I can tell. The players who transformed teams did so through trades or drafts (Duncan, Kidd, etc.) with the exception of Shaq.