How Legit are the Injuries?

[Nicholasp27]

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You have your feelings of how to rebuild a team and I have mine.

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so if 2 people have differing opinions on how to best HELP a team they root for, why is one person less of a fan than another because they take a different approach to how to HELP the team

we can differ on whether to get scott or rivers here as a coach next year, but is it really accurate to say "ur not a fan" if u pick scott instead of the ex-hawk rivers? no, it's just a difference in opinion on which coach will HELP the hawks

we are all here following the hawks, being fans of the team, and all want to HELP the hawks...we want what's BEST for the hawks

u believe that winning meaningless games to attract this weak FA class is the best way to HELP the hawks

many others believe that losing meaningless games to get a top draft pick is the best way to HELP the hawks

both sides have the same intentions, and both sides are true fans of the team

some people are tired of seeing a "team" that can't win 2 in a row with 3 borderline all stars...they are ready for a true rebuilding process and they are obviously fans because they are willing to endure a painful period of losing in order to be better in the future

if anything, wanting to win now isn't the sign of a true fan, but of an impatient fan, because u'd rather win a game here and there for the next 20 years than stick by the team as it loses 20 in a row on its way to being a top team in a few years time

apple or orange? u pick

either way, u'll still be a fan of this team and shouldn't consider urself an 'embarassment'

[Nicholasp27]

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If you are a fan you shouldn't root for them to lose.

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since when is there a set of rules to follow to be a fan?

u don't believe that people have the right to their own opinions, as well as the right to express themselves and support their team as they wish?

there is no should/shouldn'ts in being a fan (within reason)...

if u are gonna be that constricting with your definition of a fan, then I don't think many people on here care if they are on "phoostal's hawks fan list!"...ur opinion of what makes a fan means nothing to many people on here if u are gonna put such constrictions on the definition

[Nicholasp27]

btw, trying to win and just missing the playoffs isn't gonna help our image much

AND

this year's FA class sucks...

who do u want from this year's class?

name a decent unrestricted FA that would make the difference in this team (not Kobe)...

NEXT YEAR is the big year for FAs...we'll want to attract the TMacs and the Ray Allens...

so this year, we miss the playoffs (which we would do with ur plan anyway) and we get okafur/howard/smith...we get some decent players signed short term, maybe trade jt for a pick/prospect/who knows...we try with all our hearts next year...we don't root for them to lose next year...the team shows some flashes of potential, perhaps...

then, next summer, at the least we have hendu/cc for 11 mil to go after a tmac/allen/etc...at the most, knight didn't overpay for FAs and got some 1-year role players and we have 15-20+ mil to throw at 2 FAs...

then we have okafur/diaw/star FA/great FA/jt to build with...we also prolly have a decent draft pick still (not lotto cause we didn't tank) and we have this year's other picks on the bench improving and we go from there

[phoostal]

Well I never recall rooting for a team to lose being a fan of that particular team.

There are no set of rules, but that's pretty funny that you root for a team to lose, but your a fan?

Do you want you as a fan? I guess I grew up in a different world from most. I was taught to cheer for the team you like. I guess you weren't.

But to each his own. No one said you have to follow my rules. I'm just stating in my opinion you aren't a real fan of the team if you root for them to lose.

You maybe right. Most people I know root for their team to win and they claim to be a fan. I guess those people are in the minority according to you.

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[phoostal]

Well we don't know if they would miss the playoffs or if they would make it your right. Yes, this class is weak right now. You say exclude Kobe. Why? Tell Denver to exclude Kobe. I don't think they will.

Let's say we didn't trade Wallace. By the way you act like I didn't support the move of trading Reef before. I did. I think this team needed a change. I just think should have kept Wallace. Anyways I digress, Wallace was here. We came close or we made the playoffs we sign Wallace and Kobe. Sort of like the Lakers with Malone and Payton. Kobe's chances of coming to Atlanta were much better with Wallace here than without him. He would have taken Atlanta more serious than he does now. We can also still trade JT and our pick to move up in the draft or get another player. So many of the options you gave me could still be attainable. Just not a top 3 pick.

Then the following year guess what you still have that 11 mil coming off the books. Not to mention with todays draft even if you pick 18-22 you could still get a decent player. For the simple fact that the draft is pot luck wherever you pick. Your odds are better when you draft higher but you never know.

We will see how it unfolds, but to slam my way of rebuilding is somewhat foolish. There are no guarantees either way. I'm just presenting option of where we wouldn't have to tank the rest of this season.

Winning changes a lot of things, losing doesn't.

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[Admin]

for the rest of the year and I can guarantee you that I am as big of a fan as anyone on here. If I lived in Atlanta I would be at every home game. I have been a Hawks fan for 20 years now and have never actually lived in Atlanta so I have definitely proved I am a fan.......however I know that in order for this team to succeed we need to hit rock bottom and we are very close to that point. This team and this city desperately needs a Vick type of impact player and Howard can provide that. He can be everything that Reef was never capable of being and the only way we have a shot at him is to have the 1st or 2nd pick. There is a so so chance that Kobe comes here this offseason, but I wouldnt count on it and there is almost no chance that TMac comes here when he is already talking about being a Laker and especially considering that he and Rivers dont see eye to eye so I think its critical that we try and draft our superstar player and Howard has that potential. There is absolutely nothing wrong with our guys busting their asses the rest of the season and showing the league that they arent purposely tanking and really want to get better but just dont have the talent to do so. Hell since the trades we are being recognized in many different media sources for how hard we are playing and how fun we are to watch now. We are really starting to get that same type of aura to us that Orlando had several years ago, however their problem was that when they made the playoffs it cost them a high draft choice that they could have used to build around TMac and thats something we cannot afford to do.

[phoostal]

I'm tired of losing. I never once didn't agree with the moves of changing the roster. Like NY I think we made one to many by letting Wallace go. Even if Wallace didn't resign, I still think we could have gotten more this off season.

Hell yeah, I'm impatient. I'm tired of losing. I'm tired of being laughed at because I like the Hawks. I'm tired of having broadcastors bag on us, no matter what city we are in. I'm tired of getting no respect. It's sad.

So I presented a plan that I thought may work without us having to lose. And I get crucified for it by some. Sorry if I want this team to win right now.

You may say tanking this season will lead us back in the following years. You maybe right. I was just presenting a plan that could do it sooner than later. And it would also keep us up near the top for a long period as well. I just see more chance of failure with tanking the season than I do by winning. No one can convince me that losing is good. I have played enough sports that I know what losing does to a team, franchise, and community. Its not good. No matter what kind of plan is to follow. I feel it leads to more set backs than it does to success.

I'm just giving another option of why wouldn't have to root for the team to lose. It just seems contradicting to me to root for the team to lose so that we are better in the long run.

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[Nicholasp27]

ur option is fine...i'm not saying it's dumb

but u are saying that we can't be fans if we don't agree with your option

in many people's minds, if we lose 10 more games this year by tanking it, then we'll win 50 more games over the next 5 years, and since we want to see the hawks win as much as possible, that's the better scenario

we aren't fans for one year, we're fans for life, so we want to see the hawks win as much as possible over our lifetime, not just this meaningless year

difference in opinions on rebuilding is fine, but u don't think u take it a lil too far by saying that people can't possibly be fans if they want the hawks to get a top 3 pick this year by losing?

btw, i said dismiss kobe because

a) he may not opt out

b) he may go to jail

c) he may not even consider us

d) i don't think our record from now till april will affect his decision to come here or not

the best case scenario is possible with what we did:

tank this season, draft okafur/howard

sign sheed

sign kobe

jt/kobe/diaw/sheed/okafur would be a great team

or trade jt for someone else(pg, potential, draft pick)

if we kept sheed, our best chance was:

jt/kobe/diaw/sheed/pryzbilla

i think kobe would rather come here if we have a lotto pick and sheed than just sheed...

remember, we can still resign sheed this offseason...we let him go now to get our lotto pick and then sign him this offseason

[phoostal]

Fair enough.

I never said you weren't fans. I just said if you were a real fan you wouldn't be rooting for them to lose. I like the approach some have taken by saying hey I hope they win the rest of their games this year, but if they don't I will be happy because we get a top 3 pick. I don't see anything wrong with that philosophy. I just don't understand openly root for them to lose. Don't try to win on purpose. I just don't like that kind of an attitude. Thats just me. I'm not saying everyone should be like me. I maybe totally wrong for the way I think. I just wanted some feed back of why a fan would openly root for the team to lose on purpose.

But, I see your point of view that people see losing as helping out in the long run. But, only time will tell. I just wanted to bring up a plan where we didn't have to lose as much.

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[Admin]

to be what the Hawks have in the future years? Sorry but you are one of the rudest people on this site and to call us fans out that have the ability to see the forest and not just the trees a joke or not a "real fan" as you say makes me and I am sure others take your opinion very lightly. Maybe we see you as not being a "real fan" since you just want us to continue in our Babcock ways of being less than mediocre instead of having a chance to be a top team by building correctly through the draft instead of just plugging holes with retreads. However you wont see me saying you arent a real fan because everyone has a right to hope for whatever they want with their team. The team doesnt pay me to watch all of their games or come on this site 20 or so times a day or to buy their merchandise, so I can say for damn sure that I am a fan and however I choose to be a fan of this team, whether its shooting for mediocrity like you choose or hoping for greatness like us non "real fans" do, is completely up to me to decide. All you have done around here is say we arent real fans or we are jokes or whatever but seeing as how you are the vast minority maybe you should take a long in the mirror at who really is a "real fan".

[phoostal]

Maybe you should read all my posts. Mister Perfect.

I said I can see your point in my last reply. I was just bringing up another option to rebuilding. Please take the time to read all posts and then come back with something educated to say.

I never said my way was right. I always state that this is just my opinion. I have stated that I maybe in the minority. I always gave you reasons my plan may work or may not work. So before you make ignorant statements and embarrass yourself read all my posts.

I have stated I didn't like Babcock's way, but you don't read posts. I have stated that I just don't understand how you can root for a team to lose and still be a true fan. Some have come on to explain their position. I have a better understanding. You can see that from my last email.

Maybe you can't see through the forest yourself. Because I have stated before the plan that is taking place is no guarantee that it is not going to be as smooth as some thing.

Sorry you think I'm rude. I may have come acrossed rude because I said true fans don't root against their teams. I apologized if I hurt your feelings. But, honestly I thought this was a forum to express your feelings and share different ideas on how to make this team a winner. Because bottom line we are all fans of the Hawks, Right?

I can admit I shouldn't have called you a joke or an embarrassment. I have a way to make the Hawks better and so do you. So don't act like you are god either by saying your way is better. Only time will tell if this works out. I hope it does. Like I have stated since the beginning.

I do think you should do a little more reading than what you have done. I wouldn't have to be typing this response if you read all my posts on this particular subject.

Also, please don't give me this BS of looking in the mirror to see who the real fan is. I think my whole campaign during this time period is how I want to see the Hawks be a success now and into future years. You would have seen that if you read my past posts. I wasn't just thinking about this year. This is what pisses me off, read everything I write. Instead I have to come back on to retype things I have already stated.

Do you really think I like to type these long dissertations? No, I don't. I just feel like I have to because people like you don't read all of the posts. You just pick out one think, "oh he just called me a joke or said I was an embarrassment" well there was something behind what I said that led to those statements. When you read you say why I said the things I said. Also, then you will see from people's responses their views and how I came to a better understanding some of the fans positions on this matter. As stated in my response right before your post.

And if I'm still offensive to you and so rude. You don't have to ever respond to my posts. F' it! It's just a board to talk about our favorite team. Hell, we can go round and round on anything. That's the beauty of everything. Don't be upset, let's discuss it and that is what I was trying to do. Generate a discussion. On other possible plans to make this team better, than what we are doing right now.

But, you may never see my point of view. And I don't want to force you to see it. Either you do or you don't. Just like you don't agree with me on what's good for baseball and what is not good for baseball. Instead of continuing to discuss that you just got upset and said you didn't want to discuss it any further. And all was doing was bring up facts to state my case. If you can prove me wrong with the stuff I bring up, please do. God knows I'm not perfect and I'm not right. I want people to educate me with their knowledge of subjects as well. Help me get a better understanding of why I'm wrong.

Maybe the next thing you can get pissed with me for is AJ Feeley. What a waste for the Fins to get him. Not a major upgrade over Fiedler. I've like the Fins longer than the Hawks maybe we can debate that next. But, then again maybe not because I will come across to rude. LOL.

In conclusion, if I offend some sorry. I like to discuss philosophies and theories that will be beneficial in the end. I like to look at both sides of the story and then come up with a conclusion that has the best result. That was what I was trying to do here. I came up with a plan that I thought could keep the Hawks winning, instead of rooting for them to lose. I gave reasons for this, I also said how they could sustain this with the right free agents and trades. Then I also concluded that if we feel on our faces than it wouldn't be any worse than we are now. We just wouldn't have a top 3 pick.

That's all just trying to give a little perspective on another way of making things happen for this organization. Sorry Dolfan. That I got you so upset.

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[Admin]

If I have to read all of your posts before I reply to one of them that that obviously means you are contradicting yourself. Why cant you just have one opinion and stick to it, instead of changing your opinion in every post which you must be doing if I have to read all of them before I can reply.

By the way if you want to talk about educated, how about you take a second to notice that you NEVER replied to me in this thread so I really dont see where you came up with this:

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I said I can see your point in my last reply. I was just bringing up another option to rebuilding. Please take the time to read all posts and then come back with something educated to say.

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Jeez, that really makes you look like an ass doesnt it seeing as how you obviously have no idea what you are writing or to whom you are replying to.

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I can admit I shouldn't have called you a joke or an embarrassment. I have a way to make the Hawks better and so do you. So don't act like you are god either by saying your way is better. Only time will tell if this works out. I hope it does. Like I have stated since the beginning.

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So what is this magical way to make the team better? I dont seems to have seen your plan, or do I have to read all 100 or so of your posts to try and find that? Also, how did I act like a God or say that my way is better? Can you find where I said my way is better? All I did was say that maybe you shouldnt come on here saying we are a joke or things like that just because we agree with what our GM is doing since it has been proven to be an effective way of buidling a champion. I guess maybe you should take the time to actually read my posts so you wont prove to be so misinformed.

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Do you really think I like to type these long dissertations? No, I don't. I just feel like I have to because people like you don't read all of the posts. You just pick out one think, "oh he just called me a joke or said I was an embarrassment" well there was something behind what I said that led to those statements. When you read you say why I said the things I said. Also, then you will see from people's responses their views and how I came to a better understanding some of the fans positions on this matter. As stated in my response right before your post.

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Did you not see that I REPLIED to your VERY FIRST POST in this thread, the one in which you called us a joke? So why should I have to read your other posts in this thread when the one I want to reply to, in which you called us a joke is the one that I have an issue with? Maybe you should think before you post something so that you dont forget what you have posted. Never before have I ever heard anyone use the arguement that we should read all of their posts before even replying to any of them. Thats pretty funny right there.....but I will cut you some slack since you are obviously still a newbie around here.

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But, you may never see my point of view. And I don't want to force you to see it. Either you do or you don't. Just like you don't agree with me on what's good for baseball and what is not good for baseball. Instead of continuing to discuss that you just got upset and said you didn't want to discuss it any further.

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Also, I have not gotten upset about the baseball issue nor am I upset here, I just happen to know when I am just speaking to the deaf and I dont have the time nor the energy to continue on in that manner. If you think that I got upset then maybe this messageboard means a little more to you than it should.

Now, after typing this I have read every single one of your posts on this matter and yet I do not see your magical plan that will make us good this year and in the coming years......perhaps it was accidentally deleted?

[phoostal]

Here is what my plan stated since you are having a hard time finding it my posts. All you had to do was read the above posts, I copied and pasted it for you:

Let's say we didn't trade Wallace. By the way you act like I didn't support the move of trading Reef before. I did. I think this team needed a change. I just think should have kept Wallace. Anyways I digress, Wallace was here. We came close or we made the playoffs we sign Wallace and Kobe. Sort of like the Lakers with Malone and Payton. Kobe's chances of coming to Atlanta were much better with Wallace here than without him. He would have taken Atlanta more serious than he does now. We can also still trade JT and our pick to move up in the draft or get another player. So many of the options you gave me could still be attainable. Just not a top 3 pick.

Then the following year guess what you still have that 11 mil coming off the books. Not to mention with todays draft even if you pick 18-22 you could still get a decent player. For the simple fact that the draft is pot luck wherever you pick. Your odds are better when you draft higher but you never know.

This is from anothter post earlier on this topic:

Some beleive you build through the draft, I won't argue with that. But, I also think you do it through free agency and some good trades. I think you get good relatively young free agents or through trades it can also work out. Then you sprinkle in draft picks to help maintain the status you acheive.

I think that approach is more beneficial than just tanking the season and trying to get a top 3 pick. Unless you know you have the next Jordan or LeBron. I wouldn't do it.

You may laugh at the 8th playoff seed. But, I look at it as a stepping stone. Let's say they kept Wallace. With what has happen the last couple weeks the Hawks may have been in good shape to make the playoffs. That being said it would bring more exposure for the team. A lot more positive press than negative as well.

But, what this really shows people, is maybe Atlanta isn't that bad. They made the playoffs they have plenty of cap room. They are relatively young. They are in a good market. They have new ownership. The sky is the limit. The only negative I can think of is not having a top 3 pick. Even though I don't think that is that bad. There are no guarantees in the draft and I think the positives of this scenario out weigh having a top 3 pick. This franchise has nothing but a chance to get better under this picture. Higher playoff seeds in the following years.

Free agents would be more apt to sign here. I like free agents more than draft picks for the simple fact they have proven themselves in this league. Yes, I maybe missing out on the next Jordan or LeBron by not being in the top 3. I'm willing to take that risk on a proven commodity than an unproven commodity. That my friend is smart business. Choosing the proven commodity over the unproven. In the long run I will be turning over a steady profit or winning in this case.

Please do me a favor and read next time. At least this time I didn't have to write that much since I copied and paste.

Also, why should I look at a specific reply. I think if you are going to call someone out on something you should look at the entire arguement before making a statement.

The message board to me is like going to a bar and BSing with your buds. You are the one that is taking it too seriously.

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[BlackHawkDown]

You claim not to like babcock, but honestly you sound just like him. That is exactly what Pete would have done. I am not trying to diss you. God only knows I hate being on the side of Dolfan. But your plan sounds just like another Babcock 3 year plan. Pick 18 -22 WTF? Who would we get some second rate NBA wannabe?I justdo see is Phoo

[phoostal]

The only difference BHD, is that Babcock isn't the one picking the players in the draft or making the trades for the players he thinks this team needs to win.

Let's see what Knight could do making these kind of moves. I'm not saying it would work.

Maybe Babcock and I have a similar philosophy. But, the guy wasn't very good at getting the right talent. Get someone that can make the right moves.

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