Finally, The Dieselputer has results.....ORLANDO!

[Diesel]

I've been reading a lot of what is being said in Orlando... Finally, one thing I read made it all click...

Orlando is in the same position that Minn was in this year. Tmac has said give me a team that can contend or let me go... Well, they got the first pick overall... However!!!! I don't think they want Okafur.... Not in the least.

So here's the deal!!

Did you know, we can trade JT/Diaw/#17 to Houston...

Houston trades Francis to Orlando...

That's the first part of a magnificient brainstorm....

Orlando would then send Hill/1st to us.

Why is that important to Orlando?

If they get out of Hill's contract by only taking Francis' contract... It's a net savings of 4 million dollars for Orlando...

If Orlando is crafty, what they can do is leave Juwaun Howard Unprotected... Charlotte will definitely take him because he's cheaper than both Dale Davis and Antonio Davis and better. That's a net gain of 5 million more dollars. It puts them at 30 million on the cap with Tmac/Gooden/Francis all on contract. They have money to go after QRich/Damp... Or Kobe/Foyle....

What about the Hawks.

We have Hill/#1 pick overall and #6 pick overall....

I would actually entertain trading with Chicago. Maybe Okafur for Crawford/D. Howard/Fizer.......on draft night before the picks are made after we have taken Okafur.

So.....

Here's the final...

Houston gets Diaw/JT/#17. I think people in Houston are really happy.... JT does everything they want Francis to do plus he's a better shooter, without the attitude.

Orlando get Francis and Capspace... With said Capspace, Orlando can look into getting Damp and if they can leave Howard unprotected, maybe Kobe/cheaper C.

Charlotte gets Howard. Good cheap Vet that can train Deng.

Atlanta gets #1 and #6 picks in the draft. I would use that #1 to work out a deal with Chicago around LAC. There's no way LAC will take Howard... And if they do, having Okafur is not all bad for us..

The new Hawks could be:

Foyle/Pryz

Howard/Fizer/Hendu

Jax/Hill/CC

Crawford/Sura/Hansen

Harris/Knight

[jezmund]

Would rather use #6/JT/Philly 1st/2nd rounders to move up than take on Grant Hill's contract and help other teams. Moving up to #2 shouldn't be as tough as moving up to #1.

[Wretch]

People are assuming that Howard is coming to Atl...for various reasons; but are not taking into account that we may not have enough left to deal for him. There are other teams out there that could offer more attractive packages than JT.

I would not trade JT and the #6 pick to move up...simply to select a guy that could have the same potential as the pick we keep. I would take on Hill's contract if it meant that we keep the #6 and we get the #1. We'd still have plenty of money left over...especially considering moving JT's salary.

[Wretch]

Though by biving up JT, Boris, and the 17th we need to have something else coming back. A future protected 1st. Depending on how good our workouts go though, it might not be neccessary.

[Iman]

Rejected. I might do JT/Diaw/#17 for #1 but certainly not if I had to take on Grant Hill's contract. Try again.

[JB20]

Diesel, please explain to all of us why Houston would want Terry? He's a poor man's Francis and almost the same player as Cuttino Mobley. We all know that Van Gundy wants a true PG, just to pass the ball into Yao and run pick and rolls with him.

The thing about Juwan Howard is that he has a long contract, something that no one is going to want to take. Yes, he's cheaper than either of the Davises, but they're only locked in for another year or two, compared to the longer-term deal that Howard got.

Charlotte isn't going to take anybody that is already 30 and has a long contract that goes until they're like 35 or 36. They're going to be smarter than that in the expansion draft.

[xman]

As a Rockets/Hawks fan, I can say that Houston would not do this deal.

Francis may be dealt, but it will take a lot. Francis is the only player on the Rockets that can't be stopped when he decides to score - which is important because most of the Rockets are streaky - meaning there are times the whole team is cold - and Francis has to go one on three or has to put up jumpers. The bad thing about that is his stats look worse than they should because of that. He really is a heck of a player - a step fater than anyone else on the floor.

Rockets situation and evaluation:

1st - Yao will not be dealt.

2nd - That leaves only 2 players with decent trade value: Francis and Cuttino.

3rd - Other players with value in the right situation: Cato, JJackson, Pike, Nachbar, MoT

4th - Two players that are decent but have fairly large contracts: MoT (8 mil through 2007) and Cato (7.5 through 2006)

5th - The Rockets have a trade exception to pick up an extra 7 mil in a trade.

Since MoT contract expires one year after Yao will become a max player, the Rockets are stuck in over-the-cap-land. Unless, someone took MoT.

In any trade, the Rockets will look for good shooters at the 1-3 spots or a big rebounding defensive PF. Van Gundy will also want someone that can defend, at least a little.

Francis rumors:

Francis for Tmac&Hill's contract: This deal is hot on the Rockets boards - my favorite version is: Francis, Cuttino, MoT for TMac, Hill, Lue and Gooden(or Howard). Orlando would get part of the Rockets trade exception (all of it if Howard is dealt).

Francis for Ray Allen - logic being Allen is the perfect complement to Yao, then the team signs a pg (Barry) and/or deals Cuttino (for Wilcox, etc.) to fill the PF spot.

Francis for Brand (or the #2 pick and Wilcox, etc.) - LA drafts either Okafor or Howard to add to the PFs they already have in Wilcox and Ely. Francis solves the G problem for them.

There are no rumors of dealing Francis for mediocre players or cap room.

The Rockets would probably pay someone to take MoT (a couple of lotto or top 5 protected #1s would be reasonable).

Other than that, the Rockets will want a name player for Francis - which Atl does not have since trading SAR(who could conceivably come to Houston in a deal for Francis and MoT if one of Portland's decent Gs or SFs were added).

So, IMO, the only deal with Houston would involve getting draft picks for taking marginal starters with fairly large contracts. I don't think that is good for the Hawks, so no deal.

[Diesel]

Van Gundy wants a Pure PG?? Since when? If you follow JVG career, he has never had what you would call a Pure PG unless he was the guy that traded away Mark Jackson? No.. Van Gundy wants an offense that focuses on Yao Ming. Ming is become a crusher on offense but the offense doesn't work well with Francis...

Why?

Because Francis is not a Pure PG... Nor is Francis a PG that can hit the open three pointer. NO.. Francis is a guy who drive and dish or drive and score.. That is something that is totally foriegn to JVG's offensive schemes and it won't work if you want Ming to be the focus offensively.

How does this trade help...

1. JT.

JT is a better shooter than Francis from outside. In fact, JT's game is suited for this style of offensen whereby ball goes in to Ming and it comes out to either JT or Mobley... JT also has less TOs than Francis. Francis turns the ball over a lot.

2. Diaw.

Giving up Diaw is critical to the trade for Houston. Diaw is the guy that can step right in at Sf and be their Point forward. What that means is that he is the guy that initiates the offense. Ball goes in to Ming... Ball comes out to Terry/Mobley... Also, Diaw is one of the better defenders in the NBA. Being that JVG loves defense... especially on the perimeter, this is good. It also allows JJ to come in as 6th man either as SG or SF.

3. #17 pick. Great spot for Houston. With their early pick, they can get a guy like Luke Jackson. With the 17th pick, they can take Al Jefferson... Why would they want Jefferson. He's will be the perfect compliment to Ming. For now, they play Cato and develop AJ slowly... However, in years to come, who will want to contend with this C/PF combo??

So the question is diesel why do we give that up??

#1 and #6... Either Okafur/Harris Howard/Harris Howard/Smith... Etc...

Why should we take on Hill's contract?

Because Hill has an opt out in his contract and if we never play him... He will probably use it or allow us to do him like we did TB.... The point is that we're at that point where we don't need the money (we have plenty of caproom to waste for 1 year) and we can get him out due to medical retirement and get all of our money back by next year....

The same is true of Orlando, but they are in more dire striaghts than us... They need the wiggle room to get somebody to help Duncan NOW not next season. We can trade JT/Diaw/1st ~11 Million for Hill's 15 million and still have over 20 million left to get Free agents and draft picks with.....

[Diesel]

Howard is on for 3 more years...

Why is he attractive. It's 5 million. Sure DD is ~10 million and AD is over 12 million but for one year... However, Charlotte is a new team. Unfortunately, they will have a cap of about 30 million dollars in the first year. Do you take most of your cap on DD and AD??

It's a great question? I think they would think long and hard about Howard... Because getting Howard would allow them to be able to afford other players who may have short high dollar contracts.. as well as FAs... The other thing is that Howard could come in as a teacher for most of their younger players.

But why take this guy for 3 years...

Easy. Establishes a fanbase...Fans would lose interest if a team consistently switched in and out players from year to year. It would be smart to take Howard in his last contract....let him establish his old fanbase (some Bullets fans)... and be their captain for his last three years. To equate it to something familiar....

Terry Pendelton was an old player (in baseball terms) when the Braves signed him. He was captain and a guy who the fans could identify with considering that they had a young team of virtually unknowns...

[Blunt91]

No way in Hell we give up Terry, Diaw and the 17thpick for an unknown prodigy in Howard. Terry, 17thpick and cash that's it nothing else. If that doesn't work just stay put and draft Biedrins at 6 then maybe move up by giving away future first from philly to get Joshua Smith if it seems like he will go earlier than 17.

[xman]

If what you say is true - why deal for Francis?

We all know Francis is in a class above JT.

True, he had a down year, but he is still a step above.

The rockets could not win when SF was not playing - 1-12 or something like that when he was out - but they went 45-37 overall.

So, it may not be showing in the stat sheets - but if you watch him, you know he is the difference.

And, yeah, when the rest of the team can't shoot (which is half the time with the Rockets), and he has to drive one-on-three, then you get a lot of turnovers.

The Rockets are one stud player away from a heck of a team - that player is what Eddie Griffin should have been before he decided that drugs were his best friend. They think thay can find that player (I have no idea where).

If they could add a Peja at the 3 or a Wallace/Brand/etc. at the 4, they would play for the championship. But, they don't have it and they are doing well enough to not get a good draft pick - so they are sc***ed. So, Francis may be dealt - but not for bits and pieces.

Houston already has gambled on shooters and lost (Pike 40% 3PT prior to houston, 35% in Houston - same for JJ and others). Dealing an all around G like Francis for a one dimensional G like JT does not help. Diaw is good, but Houston wants a shooter at the 3. Houston gave away its 1st rounder (which was projected in the mid teens) to get rid of Rice - so apparently they put little value on the #17 pick.

The deal just does not work.

[Wretch]

...and why the suggestion that we trade with Houston for Francis. The Rockets want to establish that team as Yao Ming's team. They want to run half-court offense through the post. Francis is a running, gunning PG and he's not completely meshing with what the team wants to accomplish. They've got a rarity in the skills and size packaged in Yao, they want to take advantage of that. Though, as long as Franchise is bringing the ball up taking all those shots, and launching j's, then they will not be getting out of Yao what they want.

JT isn't neccessarily a better PG prospect for them, but I don't see Francis taking a back seat to the big guy. At the same time, JT WILL defer shots to whomever can hit it - and by running the offense through Yao, the Rockets will free up guys on the perimeter...like JT who can NAIL the open shots.

The kicker in the proposed JT/Francis swap earlier in the season was taking back Mo Taylor's salary. Adding Boris and the #17 to the equation starts the wheels turning on this deal and would offset that.

[xman]

I just don't think the Rockets will place much value in getting Diaw and the #17 pick.

They would place value in getting rid of MoT.

Combing the deals:

Diaw+#17+JT for SF+MoT

This would leave the Rockets starting JT, Cuttino and JJ at the 1-3 spots. Not as good IMO.

Diaw would add nice depth at the 3.

Yao and Cato still at the 4-5 spots.

Losing MoT's contract would be real nice for the Rokcets.

Getting another trade exception (approx 10 mil) would also be nice - if they could use it (have not used the 7.5 mil one they have now, which expires in a couple of months).

What about Cato? He could be decent in the East.

He has developed into a nice center - to the point that Gundy had to start him at PF to get him in the lineup (true, it helped that the other PF is flawed - MoT can score but not good defensively).

JT for Cato?

[Diesel]

Francis is better than JT at Driving and dishing. Creating and scoring. Jt is better at shooting from outside and not turning the ball over. People say that Francis and JT are the same.. Those people that say that don't know what they're talking about.

For as much Speed as JT has, he is not a drive and dish PG. For as much as Francis chuck shots, he can't hit a high percentage of threes and he won't turn the offensive reigns over to Yao...

However, now that they have Ming.. They want to make the Rockets his team...

Is this reasonable.... Well, Yao has the very same offensive skill set as Sabonis and Duncan. A big man who can let the offense run through him. What JVG wants is not a bad proposition.

[Wretch]

His value is one thing, but his ability is another. If the Rockets are looking at what JT can bring to the table, then this is a workable deal. If they are looking at him through popular opinion and his "market value" then it doesn't work.

I wouldn't deal JT for Cato. Watching him from his first NBA game through the present, I know what he has to offer. He's a scorer that hasn't found his place. He can't carry our franchise, which is why our opinions on him have soured. So many of us have been looking for him to be this dynamic scoring PG.

It's not too late for him to become a serviceable PG, but JT's strength is in his speed and his shot. He's one of those rare guys who can absolutely nail it from long distance. Not on that insane Peja level, but with the kind of deadly accuracy that makes him a serious threat when you pair him with a player that commands attention - like Yao Ming.

You send that ball into the post and let Ming go to work. Dare someone to double down on him, rotate it to JT and you've got instant offense. Giving JT an open look is almost like giving Shaq the ball 2 feet from the basket. We are the Hawks, and we suck...everyone knows we're trying to improve...so we're at the mercy of the market. That may mark down the value of JT, but it doesn't take away from his talent. Eventually, someone is going to place JT in a situation where he can showcase what he does best. When they do, there'll be no more questiosn around him.

I don't think our problem is so much that we want to get rid of him, so much as it is we want to go in a different direction with the franchise. Swapping him for Cato really doesn't accomplish what we're trying to do. Getting the Franchise in here or getting that #1 or #2 pick will. I wouldn't give up JT unless we are making a statement with a blockbuster move in this draft or through trades.

[Diesel]

It's another deciding factor....

Houston themselves.

Even if they take into consideration that JT is a helluva clutch shooter and he doesn't turn the ball over as much as Francis...They also have to look at their own weakness....

Unfortunately, their weakness isn't outside shooting. JJ and Cat made great strides holding up the three point % for the team while Francis tried to plummet it with his 29% shooting. Houston actually finished third in the league in 3 pt %... Sure JT would make them first overall...

BUT their problem is TO's and A's. the trade would definitely help with TO's... Francis is a turnover machine.. so trading him out for Terry would seriously help their cause... BUT Assists. Herein is the problem. Houston offense lacks passing.

In my basketball corrupted mind, I want to say having Terry will really aid this because not only will he defer and pass the ball... but also, he is a great target for Ming who himself will rack up about 3 - 4 apg throwing the ball out to JT/JJ/CM.... However, the results of that query is incomplete on the dieselputer. It makes sense that overal assist will increase but that's not a surity.

In essence... the question is IS Francis the source of the problem. I watched some Houston games...I know they don't run an organized offensive set. I know that Francis scored a lot on Chucked up Shots and drives... But is he solely responsible for their place at the bottom of the assists ledger?

The other question is Will Diaw help? You put Diaw on the floor, you get another ball handler/defender but you lose a shooter. Is this going to be good?

Again, the question begs that somebody examine Francis. Seeing that JVG is the one who is interested in shopping Francis and talks are that he would even get Charlie Ward to come in as his "pure" PG.. Then does that mean that JVG has figured out that his problems are really because of Francis... I don't know for sure... But there's a case!

[Diesel]

Just looking at the old post...

Whatever happened to xman?