JSmoove vs. MWill Rivalry?

[Guest Walter]

and you'd believe 'em and believe that was the best thing for him and the team.

It's one thing to think the Hawks WILL play Josh Smith at Pf. Eh hem! Of course they will try to do so, they have forced themselves into a swing-man/forward glut and HAVE to play him somewhere.

It's another thing to think they SHOULD play Josh Smith at Pf. Josh Smith has a lower ceiling at Pf because his height and size are not an advantage as they are at Sf, his hands are small which is a bigger disadvantage in the post, he's never played with his back to the basket which is must to make for a credible Pf prospect, and he most admires/

wants to be on the perimeter like T-mac and Jordan. I'm sure their are other reasons, but of course you're satisfied that a guy whose never played with his back to the basket, doesn't have ideal size, has a post-game small hands liability, and admires swing players/prefers to be a Sf will make for a great Pf because he gained 10 lbs, can jump, and ownership can think of no other place to play him because they have a forward-glut. Puleaze.

W

[Lascar78]

Name one star SF that had handles that were as bad as his when they came into the league

[Nicholasp27]

again, he does NOT have to play in the post or have post moves on offense to be a pf...

he can play more like a sf on offense, while defending the post player on defense...

if u watched him defend in the post last year, u'd see why we like him defending pfs...

[thecampster]

Now let me get this straight,

Diesel says

"The guy that scored 34 points on Smoove in a HS game... The guy plays the same position as Smoove. He's picked #2 overall. Don't you think there's a rivalry developing? Listen to Smoove talk in the interview..."

Then Diesel says

"The posters here got happy about How Smoove played against Dirk.. and immediately starting saying... Smoove can be a Kenyon Martin type PF. First off, Kenyon Martin is more Physical than Smoove and secondly Kenyon Martin Sucks...

Moreover...

Dirk is a perimeter PF. NOt a PF in the post... What will Smoove do with Duncan, Reef, and Al (if we trade him)... "

So Smooth plays solid defense against perimeter pro Nowitski (a top 25 pro player) but has 34 dropped on him the previous year by a high school kid. Selecting the high school kid that put up 34 points against him is a mistake.

Did I read that right?

I had to get that right. Diesel you have insinuated, said, blared that drafting Marvin Williams was a mistake but admit you know he outplayed Smooth just 1 year previous. You admit Smooth can play with the best pros when as a rookie he did well playing against Dirk Nowitski. I'm speechless!!!!

[Guest Walter]

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Name one star SF that had handles that were as bad as his when they came into the league

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After one year of college had a rookie year with .8 APG to 1.8 TO per game for a worse than 1 to 2 A:TO ratio. Now averages 22 PPG but more important to this discussion has in almost exactly double the time

1) increased his APG 400% to 3.4 APG...given the doubled amount of PT this truly reflects a 200% increase.

2) increased his TO per game 125%...however given the doubled amount of PT this truly reflects a 74% DECREASE in TOs.

3) achieved a more than respectable 3.4:2.9 A:TO ratio.

I believe Josh Smith has FAR more ability than Maggette but is no less skilled in terms of ball-handling than Maggette was coming out of Duke.

W

[Traceman]

anywhere near Sheed, Pippen, a HEALTHY Sabonis, a HEALTHY Brian Grant, JR Rider, Jimmy Jackson, Mighty Mouse etc THEN I'll start worrying about minutes for whoever doesn't get enought PT. Marvin backing up Smoove and Al is not even CLOSE to a young, unproven O'Neal backing up Sheed, Grant and Sabonis. Until we get some proven stars, let all our guys work hard against each other to get better. NONE of our guys with the possible exception of JJ (and to a lesser extent Al) have proven anything in this league.

[Guest Walter]

His rookie year after a year at Duke? .8 APG, 1.8 TO per game, & worse than 1:2 TO/A ratio. 17 MPG.

Josh Smith was 1.7 apg, 1.82 TO per game, very near a 1:1 A:TO ratio. 28 MPG.

Fact is, Josh Smith's handles, while not great, aren't as bad as people would have you believe. He turned the ball over the same amount as Maggette in 11 MORE MPG and he did so while more than doubling Maggette's APG total. People who dog Josh about his handles are an equally wrong, more sophisticated version of Jay Bilas.

W

[Guest Walter]

Does Marvin play post offense for us while Josh plays post defense? Marvin is 6'8" and no bigger. He suffers some of the same issues as Josh but worse (i.e. shorter). He was considered a pro Sg/Sf candidate coming out of HS, not a Pf candidate.

The "Power" part of power forward by committee solution might not fall a team flat on its face, but is it the best strategy for any team? No. Is it the best strategy for either Marvin or Josh? Most definately no.

W

[Lascar78]

assissts have absolutely nothing to do with how well you dribble the ball for starters. While turnovers are at least vaguely related, they are not the same thing. I saw Maggette play, and his handles were not nearly as bad as Smith's. Besides is he really a star SF? Most rookies turn the ball over because they are horrible decision makers, not because they can't dribble.

The fact is that Smoove doesn't have the shot of a SG, the dribble of a SF, or the back to the basket moves of a PF. He's going to have to learn whatever position he plays. I think in the end it'll be PF.

[Traceman]

of a 3/4. I don't think that comparison is really fair to either guy. Josh is a better rebounder and shotblocker than Magette already (and nearly as good a passer) but Magette is a much better shooter and he is FAR better at creating his own shot or getting fould and going to the line. As far as ballhandling goes, Magette was a better ballhandler coming in to the league, he was just turnover prone because he tried to do too much. As he has learned when to be aggressive, his turnover rate has gone down significantly.

All of the above being said, I have no idea at this point where Josh will end up and I really don't care. At his CURRENT size, I agree that he is more likely to achieve superstardom at SF than PF. However, it is certainly conceivable (even likely) that he will grow an inch and put on 15-20 lbs over the next year or two. At 6'10" 250-255, would he not be a viable candidate to achieve superstardom at PF?

[Lascar78]

that's true too. Maggette is listed as a guard on the clippers' webpage

[Guest Walter]

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Name one star SF that had handles that were as bad as his when they came into the league

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http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1998_dr...ayers/lewis.htm

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This youngster has tremendous range on shot can shoot the three's like a guard but needs to develop the nba 3 that could be tricky. His ball handling needs to improve too.

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He had a .2 APG to 1 TO per game average his first year in limied minutes and has a 1:1 A:TO ratio for his career. He can shoot many times better than Josh, but he's not the athlete and wasn't the ball-handler Josh is until his second year.

W

[Guest Walter]

Even as a Sf with good Sg height he still had worse handles than Josh out of HS and was about equal )I'd say) out fo college.

W

[thesheedera]

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He was considered a pro Sg/Sf candidate coming out of HS, not a Pf candidate.

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WHAT???

Walter, what is your source of information that makes you believe Marvin was ever projected as a SHOOTING GUARD??? Just the fact that he can shoot?

http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=447934

Ht: 6-8.5 Wt: 222 PPG: 24.0

Position: SF, PF

Projected as: SF, PF

Position Rank: 3

Date of Birth: 6/19/1986

Class: 2004 Senior

AAU Team: Seattle Rotary Select

High School: Bremerton HS

(Bremerton, WA)

Biography:

2004 - North Carolina:

Averaged 28.7 points and 15.5 rebounds, five blocked shots and five assists as a senior at Bremerton High School in Bremerton, Wash. • Earned McDonald's and Parade All-America honors • Also played at the Roundball Classic in Chicago • Two-time all-state selection and the Washington Player of the Year by the Associated Press • Averaged 31 points with a high of 37 points in four postseason games last year • Had a season-high 45 points in a win over Gig Harbor and added two other 42-point games as a senior • Had 20 or more rebounds in five different games with a high of 25 • Blocked 11 shots twice as a senior and had 10 in another game • Averaged 23.9 points and 14 rebounds as a junior and was named area player of the year

2003 - High School Basketball:

Member of the underclassman all-star game at the 2002 adidas ABCD Camp. Terrific talent and ultra versatile. He can certainly play both forward positions. Not as tall as Drew Gooden but shares some of the same traits that made Gooden a star. Has such an incredible feel for the game. Super touch from all over the court. Has a presence about him that will make him a star.

[thesheedera]

...justifying one player's chances with success by coming up with an example of a different player who had success with the same exact skill sets/measurements/ability? Aren't the best players usually the ones who break molds?

What does it prove? Who was the precedent for Jordan? Oscar Robertson? Only thing that comes close. What about Magic? What about KG? Who was the first Dirk?

Who the hell cares? The only thing that matters is the player in the present, and what they can do.

Few teams have prototypical players at every position, and even the best players are forced to ply out of position from time to time. Magic played 5 positions in on series. Jordan played 3 positions with regularity, and even posted up some PFs as a Wizard. Duncan's a "PF" but also a top 3 Center in the league. Look at the Suns last year. Stoudamire played lots at Center, Marion (6'7") played plenty at PF. They didn't win it all, but I'd trade our season for theirs.

[Guest Walter]

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WHAT???

Walter, what is your source of information that makes you believe Marvin was ever projected as a SHOOTING GUARD??? Just the fact that he can shoot?

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NBAdraft.net had Marvin listed as a "Sg/Sf" coming out of HS. He withdrew his name so the record does not exist, however, I remember this fact vividly and accurately. Whether you think that means he was "projected" as a Sg I don't know. The part that made him special in the nbadraft write-up was the belief that he might could make the transition to NBA Sg.

W

[Guest Walter]

...name one star Sf with Josh Smith's ball-handling skills.

I'm not sure this is about any obsession and while I want to think Josh Smith and Marvin Williams are both players who will "break the mold", the liklihood of either doing so is not only unlikely but is so unlikely it would do the team a terrible disservice to build based upon that unlikelihood.

I just think that the "potential" that presumably caused us to draft Marvin over Deron or Paul will be more than lost in the loss of potential Marvin or others, presumably Josh Smith, will suffer due to any lack of playing time opportunity, confusion in roles, or outright being played in the wrong position to maximize their potential.

W

[thesheedera]

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NBAdraft.net

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You had me at hello. I personally don' like that site. I think its a great source of historical information on actual draft order, and can be fun to look at for upcoming drafts, but players bounce on and off their lists almost daily, and I believe its ll a conglomeration of other publications, I don't think the people that run it have any real knowledge of what's going on. I could see someone watching one of Marvin's HS games and think he has guard skills, because he played all positions for them. His clips reminded me of Reef in college. He'd bring up the ball in crunch time. He'd shoot from the perimeter, lead the fast break, he'd do everything. But Marvin's competition was weak in HS, and the idea of him playing guard never once seemed likely following his recruitment. It was always SF/PF for college, and SF/PF for NBA according to gurus that reported his recruitment, and his consideration of entering the draft right out of school.

[thesheedera]

I meant Reef in High school, not college. my bad.

[Diesel]

I agree that learing while playing is best... I did think you meant learning from the bench as learning on the bench...

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Their height is not as much of an issue as their ability to play, use their bodies, reach for balls, and use their athleticism. People are bagging on Marvin's athleticism, which is nonsense.

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I like to look at positions by ability and not by height. I still contend that JT is a 2 and that Wade is a 2 to help clear up some things. I think that a PG has to be able to run the offense. I believe that a SG should be able to shoot with some consistency. I believe that a Sf ought to be able to defend from the perimeter in and be able to score in the midrange by either shooting or driving. I believe that a PF should have low post offense as well as defense. I think that the C out to have low post offense/defense & rebounding. Of the positions, I believe that the only two that are really interchangeable is C/PF and that's if a player has the right size.

What some of you who contend that Smoove is a 4 or that Marvin is a 4 is Look at our need and declare them as 4's. This type of thinking has never worked. BK will find out that there are specialties in basketball for a reason. The 6'8 team model is one that I believe will not be successful. Not without those special needs being addressed. The only system where that has ever worked was in the triangle. And even the triangle is MORE SPECIFIC that we mention here.

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I know that your argument against Marvin is that he hasn't proven anything, and he hasn't. But he hasn't had a chance to prove anything on the NBA level, and he only played one position in college on a ridiculously stacked team coached by a man who cares more about "the right way" than he does about showcasing talent.

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I think Marvin gets an automatic pass because he wasn't the star of his college team. It's more hype than substance. If you were really daring you would look at his performance in big games. In most of the big games that I have watched, Marvin disappeared. Moreover, Jawad Williams was not so good but he looked as good as Marvin in that system.