JSmoove vs. MWill Rivalry?

[Lascar78]

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Maybe I'm tainted by the incessant criticisms of Marvin Williams by a few vocal members of this board, but I do see this thread at its heart being about why having Williams on the roster is a mistake.

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Exactly. One of about a hundred threads. Most dance around the issue, but that is the implication. yawn

[Nicholasp27]

a) he did say he would get time at both forward positions; he's heard bk/mullins/etc say he may be future pf, he has bulked up considerably, he did better at pf than sf...but no, i haven't heard him explicitly say he's gonna be pf...

b) if we got deron and daly, i'd be saying smoove is still pf in the future...i would love a blocking/rebounding/defending paint duo of smoove/daly

deron/chill/al/smoove/daly...i'd run with that for now and work on getting a sf in the future if we trade al...or get jj and go with deron/jj/chill/smoove/daly

smoove at least needs to be pf on defense...if he wants to be sf on offense, whatever...but on defense, i want him in the post

[Diesel]

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he did say he would get time at both forward positions; he's heard bk/mullins/etc say he may be future pf, he has bulked up considerably, he did better at pf than sf...but no, i haven't heard him explicitly say he's gonna be pf..

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The correction is he said "Well, Coach said we would all play both forward spots". It really says to me that he hasn't fully bought into the idea of this. If he had, he'd say... "we will have a rotation and play each forward spot" and would lay no blame on the coach.

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if we got deron and daly, i'd be saying smoove is still pf in the future...i would love a blocking/rebounding/defending paint duo of smoove/daly

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Even though smoove is 6'8" 235 and has NO lowpost moves... OK. I really believe that one!

[swolehawk2]

Hell half the so called PFs in the league have NO post moves...it is not that much of a stretch.

If you listen to what the Hawks have been preaching....it doesn't matter what you call them ..Marvin and Josh will be on the floor together and you probably won't be able to tell which spot they are playing.

[Diesel]

Did you ever notice that the dominate PFs are the ones with good post moves? I mean Tim Duncan, KG, Sheed, ... so on so fourth.

The other thing is we have a guy here in Al who does have a post game.

BK's dream of a 6'9 team is definitely wild.. But what BK will find out is what others have found out. YOU have positional difference for a reason and that reason is winning. It's hard to win when you stray too far from position... I have heard this crap before about versatile and being able to play every position with somebody with size. It doesn't work. That's what PTL tried years ago. They had Wallace, Cato, Oneal, and a whole stockpile of talent. Dunleavy was a good manager of the talent for a while, but then things happen as things happens... Good players want to play.

[swolehawk2]

Do you believe that Al will be here for the long term?

Also Sheed and KG don't have great post moves...there best move and probably the one they use 90 % of the time is a turn around jump shot....hardly ever do they use a drop step or half hook....they turn and face most of the time...now Timmy has it all...but most PFs are not like the PFs of old.

[Diesel]

I think it's a possibility that Al will be here longterm.

Think about it.

BK drafted him.

He's 6'9 250, young, long, versatile, and Athletic.

If he agrees to an extension, I think he'll be here for about 4 more years.

Aside from trading him just to open up a playing space, why do you suppose that he will be released or traded?

[Nicholasp27]

smoove is 6'9 and gaining weight during the offseason

[Traceman]

That said, I do agree with you that at the very least, there will likely be a healthy competition for minutes between the two for the reasons that you posted. I don't see that as a bad thing at all. I think it will fuel both of them to work hard because they will both know that if either of them slips, the other is likely to climb to the top of the pecking order. Personally, I think it's great. May the best man win!

[Diesel]

I do agree that it's good for business.... FOR a short time... However, I can also see this going bad. Just like the BU QB and QB controversies...

In Basketball, it's hard for a player to play well when he knows that one mistake will put him on the bench. I think at some Point, Woody will have to step up and say " _________ is my starter and the minutes will go this way."

An example, I can pull up from the old Dieselputer is J.O in Portland. First off, who can blame PTL? They had Wallace, Brian Grant, Oneal and A. Harvey fighting for minutes at the PF spot. They had Sabonis, Cato, and Klein at C. IN all the confusion, it's hard to get your 8-9th man minutes and that's what happened with J.O. Imagine if they could have found time to play him sufficiently like Indy did?

That's my fear in this case... Somebody will miss a lot of development time and not play as well as possible for fear that if they mess up or if they have too many off nights, they will be on the bench watching?

[thesheedera]

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I do agree that it's good for business.... FOR a short time... However, I can also see this going bad. Just like the BU QB and QB controversies...

In Basketball, it's hard for a player to play well when he knows that one mistake will put him on the bench. I think at some Point, Woody will have to step up and say " _________ is my starter and the minutes will go this way."

An example, I can pull up from the old Dieselputer is J.O in Portland. First off, who can blame PTL? They had Wallace, Brian Grant, Oneal and A. Harvey fighting for minutes at the PF spot. They had Sabonis, Cato, and Klein at C. IN all the confusion, it's hard to get your 8-9th man minutes and that's what happened with J.O. Imagine if they could have found time to play him sufficiently like Indy did?

That's my fear in this case... Somebody will miss a lot of development time and not play as well as possible for fear that if they mess up or if they have too many off nights, they will be on the bench watching?

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But the Hawks don't have that kind of wealth at any position. As much as some might like to believe, Josh Smith is not a proven commodity. The Blazers had proven vets on that team, and a bunch of them.

As a matter of fact, there are so few proven commodities on this team, that competition at every position is essential to development, for ALL of them.

And don't underestimate what you can learn while sitting on the bench if you're paying attention, and you're listening to your coaches. Its the guys that pout with the towels on their heads that don't learn anything.

Diesel, I understand what you're saying, but I think you're overestimating the talent we have. We have 1 definite NBA starter - JJ. We have another definite 6th man, who could start on a lot of teams - AL. We have lots of young guys with potential to be starter quality players or even superstars, but none of them have "earned" anything, and all of them can be beat out for their positions.

If Josh Smith thinks he has a starting position in the NBA wrapped up for his career because he had some highlights, he better think twice. That's a fast road to complacency, which results in crappy play.

I think a rivalray between Al, Josh and Marvin for time at the forward spots would be great for all of them, they all need to fight every day to get better. If they can do this within the concept of a team environment, the reults should be favorable.

If they get bratty and think of themselves only - we're in trouble. Marvin is the type to fight hard within the team mindset, often labled as the most intense in practice between him, Jawad and May. I don't know enough about Josh and Al to have a guess of how they'll respond. But I like what I know about both of them. There are a lot of minutes to go around for two spots and three players.

And yes, I do believe that both Marvin and Josh can develop into PFs in this league. You say they don't have any post moves, well I say the don't have any polished perimeter moves. They are just as effective right now down low as they are as a SF. They have a TON to learn to be effective at either position. Luckily for us, both have the talent to do so, at both positions, especially if all they need to do is learn some moves. I personally feel there's a lot more for them to learn than that.

[Diesel]

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But the Hawks don't have that kind of wealth at any position. As much as some might like to believe, Josh Smith is not a proven commodity. The Blazers had proven vets on that team, and a bunch of them.

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First wealth..

In our own system, we have wealth at the forward spots. Just from what we have invested into them, Josh, Al, and Marvin will rotate between the 3/4 positions. While, there may be an occassion to put Batista in at 4? And depending on what JJ does, it could get very crowded at the Sf... So right now, we have wealth at the Sf/PF position like a middle incomed person in the projects!

Second...

I agree, JSmith is not proven. However, he has come a long way for a Rookie. I say both Chillz and Smoove did a lot of developing as for as first year players are concerned. We gave them the team in March and April and they played strongly...

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And don't underestimate what you can learn while sitting on the bench if you're paying attention, and you're listening to your coaches. Its the guys that pout with the towels on their heads that don't learn anything.

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Here is where you make my point for me...

YOu say that you can learn a lot on the bench. I disagree with this.. but let's recall PTL again. J.O. didn't learn a whole lot on the bench. Let's recall JT. His first year here, JT either learned nothing on the bench or he was remedial in his basketball knowledge. Let's recall Tmac... Tmac didn't really flourish until he got real playing time. Can you show me an instance in basketball where a player progressed while sitting the bench? I don't remember a player sitting the bench and one day coming off and everybody saying... Wow!

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Diesel, I understand what you're saying, but I think you're overestimating the talent we have. We have 1 definite NBA starter - JJ. We have another definite 6th man, who could start on a lot of teams - AL. We have lots of young guys with potential to be starter quality players or even superstars, but none of them have "earned" anything, and all of them can be beat out for their positions.

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You are correct that I have higher expectations for this team that you. I see JJ as being a star player... But I see JC as being so good that it will make you want to hit him! I say that AL will be much better than he was this past year simple because he has somebody who can take the pressure off of him and that somebody is a shooter and not another forward.

As far as earning their positions...

I would like to see us start the season with:

Delk, JJ, JC, Al, and Zaza...

Tell me... is it possible?

These are our best and most experienced players but we have politics to deal with:

JJ will try out at PG...

JC will be moved to SG...

JS will be in the starting lineup?

Was this rotation earned? Lord no... But it must be in order to appease the customers... Winning isn't enough.

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And yes, I do believe that both Marvin and Josh can develop into PFs in this league. You say they don't have any post moves, well I say the don't have any polished perimeter moves.

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Not meaning to argue.. but nothing about either player says PF to me. Looking at their games.. I would be more inclined to make them Sfs... Let's be real...

If we traded either one to a team with no Sf and no Pf, what do you think that team would make them?

PFs?

I think not.

I think there's a massive unconscious movement to fit the round block into the square hole because it's the only hole that's open?

[Guest Walter]

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a)smoove at least needs to be pf on defense...if he wants to be sf on offense, whatever...but on defense, i want him in the post

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We all know this ain't gonna happen. Again, NOBODY 6'9" or shorter and 225 (or 235) is a top Pf in this league. It is doing Smoove and the team a disservice to make him a Pf. His ceiling is highest at Sf where his height and size are an advantage (not a liability) towards stardom and skills such as perimeter shooting are easier top develop than the longer developing intricacies of post-moves as a relatively small Pf.

W

[mrhonline]

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Again, NOBODY 6'9" or shorter and 225 (or 235) is a top Pf in this league.

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Plenty of NBA PF's were under 240 lbs. at the age of 19. But I seriously doubt any of the NBA SF's had as little range as Josh does.

[Nicholasp27]

this is most definitely NOT a jo situation

we don't have big man depth

smoove/marvin can both play 36mpg if they play well and deserve it

they will push each other and both will succeed

[Nicholasp27]

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We all know this ain't gonna happen.

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even tho the staff has been TELLING US he'll be a pf in the future?

[Nicholasp27]

jj is playing pg not because of politics

he's playing pg because bk and jj believe jj can be the pg for this team

jj/jc/js/al/zaza is the opening day starting lineup

get used to it...ur boy delk ain't starting

[thesheedera]

Diesel - You seem to be assuming that "learning from the bench" means a majority of the time on the bench. I'm talking about sharing time, platooning at positions, learning different skills, and working your way in. As long as they're getting 25 or 30 minutes at least in the game, if the rest of the time is on the bench, I believe there are plenty of things they can learn from observation and listening. Some guys do great when thown into the fire immediately, some guys burn out and lose their confidence. There's no single way to go about it, but having two guys sharing time at a couple of positions in the 1st/2nd year in the league is not a bad thing.

If these guys were traded to another team, that team would face the same issue of fitting them into their personnel. Neither of these guys are absolutes at either position. I agree they are both better suited for SF, but I can envision both of them as PFs too. Their height is not as much of an issue as their ability to play, use their bodies, reach for balls, and use their athleticism. People are bagging on Marvin's athleticism, which is nonsense. He's not a freak like Vince Carter or a Josh Smith, but his athleticism has never limited his game in any way, its only bolstered it.

Their height gets more attention than it should. They have both been listed at 6'9", as tall as Malone, taller than Barkley. The official measurements show Marvin at what? 6'8.5" with shoes on, 6'7.5" w/o shoes? Does a half inch really limit his ability? Does an inch and a half change his effectiveness? I think its more about using your body, timing your jump, using your reach, moving your feet. Josh Smith is getting VERY thick, if he can match his mass with aggressive physical play, he'll wear peopl out down low. Marvin has a big frame, and still has plenty of room to fill out.

I know that your argument against Marvin is that he hasn't proven anything, and he hasn't. But he hasn't had a chance to prove anything on the NBA level, and he only played one position in college on a ridiculously stacked team coached by a man who cares more about "the right way" than he does about showcasing talent. Roy knew if the team was successful, they'd all get drafted, and they did, in unprecedented numbers. But he didn't allow them to be selfish and treat college like an audition, he had them play the game. It may not show yet, but I strongly believe that what Marvin learned as a freshman at UNC will help him be a winner for his whole career.

[BeeSwatter]

I don't post much on here but I do a lot of reading here. Diesel I have to say that this is probably the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen you start. Talk about reading between the lines what you want to hear. Both of these guys are going to get minutes. If it makes the Hawks better both of these guys will find their way on the floor at the same time. To say that these guys don't like each other to back up your point that you don't think we should have drafted Marvin is very lame on your part in my opinion.

[Guest Walter]

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Plenty of NBA PF's were under 240 lbs. at the age of 19. But I seriously doubt any of the NBA SF's had as little range as Josh does.

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1) The only shorter, top quality Pfs in Brand and Boozer are 270 and 260 lbs respectively. That's NOT anywhere near 240!

2) Additionally, unlike Josh, who has remarkably small hands, both Boozer and Brand have monstrous hands allowing them significantly more ability in the post.

3) Lastly, Boozer and Brand have been playing Pf since they were 15. FIFTEEN! Smoove hasn't played 15 games worth of time at Pf! It took them 8 years of low level development to get the post moves they have today. Josh doesn't have the large amount of time it will take to develop legitimate post moves!

In short, I doubt any of the nba's top Pfs had never played Pf or center and had NO post moves before they came to the NBA. Josh hasn't had his back to a basket EVER! Whatever his skill level is on the perimeter, at least he's played facing the GD basket! He does not have ideal height OR size to be a top Pf. He does at Sf. He does not have ideal hands to be a Pf. They will not as greatly affect him on the perimeter. He does not even have experience with his back to the basket. He has all his experience facing the basket. He doesn't admire Pfs or want to become one (See below). He does admire Sfs and wants become one.

I've got a great idea. Let's make his height and size a liability, his small hands a bigger obstacle, reject his face the basket experience, and play him where he doesn't respect other players and does prefer to play.

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Note: Josh's favorite players are Tracy McGrady currently and Jordan overall. The guy models himself after Sfs. Let him become one!

W