Keep an eye on the NBDL

[mrhonline]

The NBDL has started. A few thoughts:

1. I wouldn't be surprised to see Royal Ivey sent down when (or, if) Delk returns.

2. I can't help but notice that Anthony Grundy is one of the leading scorers in the league in the early going. He's averaging 24/7/6...

3. Does anyone know anything about Roderick Riley? Averaging

14/10 in the early going. He's listed as 6'11, 320.

4. P.J. Ramos and Luke Schenscher look like decent big man projects.

[Nicholasp27]

isn't grundy more of an actual point than anyone we have on the team?

i woulda liked us to have signed him so our players could start getting used to play with a real point for when rondo comes

[Gray Mule]

Hawks have Smith and Ivey, second rounders from last year

that need to be playing. When can the Hawks send someone

down?

[BornandDieHawks]

I agree...Ivery and Smith needs more time at the guard position which is one our #1 concern.

[Nicholasp27]

yes, they need to be playing, but woody won't do it, so they need to go to the nbdl to get 20+mpg

if grundy is an actual pg, i'd like to see him on our actual team getting real mins from lue so we can see how our guys do with an actual pg...if he's not, then leave him in the nbdl

[exodus]

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if grundy is an actual pg, i'd like to see him on our actual team getting real mins from lue so we can see how our guys do with an actual pg.

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You are a retard. Can you make one post w/o dogging Lue?

Or do I have to expose your ignorance again?

[Nicholasp27]

lue isn't a real pg...just like jj/ivey/donta aren't real pgs

u should be able to admit that he's not...

[Lascar78]

agreed. Lue might be the closest thing to being a pure PG that we have, but reality is we don't have a pure PG. Lue is a scoring PG

[exodus]

Lue has played pg his whole career.

Lue played pg exclusively for the Hawks last year and was one of the league leaders in assist/turnover ratio in spite of a roster that lacked scoring.

His career assist/turnover ratio is 2.71. You still haven't found 1 shooting guard with a ratio like that in the history of the NBA.

He has zero turnovers the last two games. Salim and JJ have combined for 16.

Basically you are a clueless moron trying to promote a website filled with nonsense.

Your website indicates that the Hawks are completely dependent on JJ yet they scored 120 points against the Celtics and won the game when he spent most of the game on the bench.

They won last night even though JJ was horrible, shooting 7 for 27 from the field. They have won 2 in a row in spite of the player your stats indicate the Hawks are completely dependent on.

[Lascar78]

of course his position is PG. The question is whether or not he is a pure PG, i.e. one who can run an offense effectively and set everyone else up.

JJ had 9 assists last night, but he is not a pure PG.

[exodus]

Then how do you measure a pure pg if not by using assist to turnover ratio? Is there another way to measure it that I am not aware of? Or are some people just trying to play off their opinions as fact?

[Lascar78]

no statistic makes you a particular position. Lue is a PG who doesn't know how to run an offense. He is not a pure PG. Unfortunately, an assist does not tell you if the PG created the play of if he handed the ball to someone who hit a long contested jumper.

People look to stats too much. I think that if 100 people who know basketball watch Lue play alot, 90 of them will agree that he is not a pure PG. He doesn't know how to run an offense. He doesn't have above average court vision, he doesn't make players around him better, or get them easier shots. He is a pretty good basketball player who is short and has a good handle. That is why he plays PG. That is the same reason Salim will play PG even though he will probably never be a pure point. Pure points are guys like Kidd, Deron, Payton, Nash, Brevin Knight, Sam Cassel, the list goes on and on. Guys who know how to run an offense and create for others. There are also a slew of players playing PG due to size constraints who are not pure points. Lue falls into that group.

[exodus]

So the 3.25 assist to turnover ratio doesn't show his playmaking ability? Especially towards the end of the year they Hawks didn't have much scoring. Harrington was the go to guy and he was hobbling with tendonitis. Plus he rarely shoots without taking at least 2 dribbles. The Josh's were Lue's primary go to guys. How could he get high assist numbers with that roster?

In short Lue had very few opportunities to get assists and still put up good numbers. How else can you measure creating shots for others if you aren't looking at assist to turnovers? All the top pg's have high ratios, unless you are talking about someone like AI who obviously isn't a pure pg.

In the offseason they spent $70 million to replace Lue. Looks to me like he isn't sure about his role now. Would you be? Would you take control of a game the way a pg is supposed to when your GM and coach want JJ to do it?

[pathway23]

We spent 70 million to replace Lue? really? We tried him at the point and that didn't work out because Chill doesn't get enough respect on his shot for him to play the 2. Lue is only starting so that we don't have to start the rookie. Lue was signed to be our backup, and he is only starting now out of default because there is no PG on our roster and he has experience, and we need JJ's scoring at the 2. We still need a starting caliber PG, we have a decent backup PG, that is all Lue is, a decent backup point. He is like Damon Jones minus defense, and that is average backup material..

[exodus]

That is my point. Lue is the only pg on the roster. His defense makes him a backup on most teams but he is the only one the Hawks have so he should be starting.

If someone wants to say we need to get another pg to start in front of Lue then fine. I feel the same way. If someone criticizes his D or says he is playing poorly so far this year again those are legit points.

But to say he isn't a pg is just ridiculous.

[exodus]

Lascar how many of these guys are not pure pg's in your opinion?

2004-05 Regular Season Assists Per Turnover

Player G AST TO A/TO

1. Brevin Knight (Charlotte Bobcats) 4.02

2. Antonio Daniels (Seattle SuperSonics) 3.96

3. Jason Hart (Charlotte Bobcats) 3.60

4. Damon Jones (Miami Heat) 3.57

5. Eric Snow (Cleveland Cavaliers) 3.56

6. Steve Nash (Phoenix Suns) 3.51

7. Chris Duhon (Chicago Bulls) 3.34

7. Jeff McInnis (Cleveland Cavaliers) 3.34

9. Rick Brunson (Los Angeles Clippers) 3.28

10. Jason Kidd (New Jersey Nets) 3.26

11. Luke Ridnour (Seattle SuperSonics) 3.24

12. Gary Payton (Boston Celtics) 3.17

13. Anthony Johnson (Indiana Pacers) 3.15

14. Speedy Claxton (New Orleans Hornets) 3.14

15. Marko Jaric (Los Angeles Clippers) 3.09

16. Earl Boykins (Denver Nuggets) 3.07

16. Jason Williams (Memphis Grizzlies) 3.07

16. Tyronn Lue (Atlanta Hawks) 3.07

19. Rafer Alston (Toronto Raptors) 3.02

20. Jason Terry (Dallas Mavericks) 2.92

21. Stephon Marbury (New York Knicks) 2.87

22. Kirk Hinrich (Chicago Bulls) 2.81

23. Damon Stoudamire (Portland Trail Blazers) 2.79

24. Baron Davis (Golden State Warriors) 2.76

24. Sam Cassell (Minnesota Timberwolves) 2.76

[Lascar78]

If you did look at a stat, I would say that assists are more important that assist to TO, although even assists only give a partial picture as they don't show what kind of assists they are.

Steve Nash is much more of a pure point than a guy like Billups, and you can see it as he gets 11 assists to Billups' 8. However Billups' asst/to is LESS THAN HALF of that of Billups. Hell Nash's is lower than Boris Diaw's. Are you going to tell me Boris is the pure point on that team?

Asst/TO is a ratio. Which means it can be high for one of two reasons: high assists, low turnovers, or both. In Lue's case, it's the latter.

Lue's asst/TO is currently 1.5, which is 121st in the league. So even if you use that, he is the 121st best pure point in the league, behind guys like Kobe, Peja, JR Smith, Tayshaun Prince, Brad Miller etc...

His assists per game are 2.5, 91st in the league

His assists per 48 minutes are 5.2, 91st in the league. Even JJ gets 5.9 per 48

There is no reason to say Lue is a pure point, he isn't. Like I said, he's got a good handle, which is why he virtually never turns it over and has a decent asst/TO. That does not make him a PG, it makes him a good ballhandler

[Lascar78]

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Lascar how many of these guys are not pure pg's in your opinion?

2004-05 Regular Season Assists Per Turnover

Player G AST TO A/TO

1. Brevin Knight (Charlotte Bobcats) 4.02

2. Antonio Daniels (Seattle SuperSonics) 3.96

3. Jason Hart (Charlotte Bobcats) 3.60

4. Damon Jones (Miami Heat) 3.57

5. Eric Snow (Cleveland Cavaliers) 3.56

6. Steve Nash (Phoenix Suns) 3.51

7. Chris Duhon (Chicago Bulls) 3.34

7. Jeff McInnis (Cleveland Cavaliers) 3.34

9. Rick Brunson (Los Angeles Clippers) 3.28

10. Jason Kidd (New Jersey Nets) 3.26

11. Luke Ridnour (Seattle SuperSonics) 3.24

12. Gary Payton (Boston Celtics) 3.17

13. Anthony Johnson (Indiana Pacers) 3.15

14. Speedy Claxton (New Orleans Hornets) 3.14

15. Marko Jaric (Los Angeles Clippers) 3.09

16. Earl Boykins (Denver Nuggets) 3.07

16. Jason Williams (Memphis Grizzlies) 3.07

16. Tyronn Lue (Atlanta Hawks) 3.07

19. Rafer Alston (Toronto Raptors) 3.02

20. Jason Terry (Dallas Mavericks) 2.92

21. Stephon Marbury (New York Knicks) 2.87

22. Kirk Hinrich (Chicago Bulls) 2.81

23. Damon Stoudamire (Portland Trail Blazers) 2.79

24. Baron Davis (Golden State Warriors) 2.76

24. Sam Cassell (Minnesota Timberwolves) 2.76

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I bolded the ones I don't consider to be pure points. Baron Davis is debatable, as is Marko Jaric and Anthony Johnson. I might have missed some but you should get the point

Do you not see the difference between a Damon Jones / JT type point guard and a Steve Nash / Brevin Knight type point guard? I.e. scoring PG vs. pure PG?

Also might I ask why you are using old numbers, a.k.a. Lue's career year

[exodus]

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Steve Nash is much more of a pure point than a guy like Billups, and you can see it as he gets 11 assists to Billups' 8. However Billups' asst/to is LESS THAN HALF of that of Billups. Hell Nash's is lower than Boris Diaw's. Are you going to tell me Boris is the pure point on that team?

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You can't be serious. Season just started. All stats right now have to be taken with a grain of salt. Get real.

How many long range shooters did the Hawks have last year? Drobs and Collier hit a few. Lue and Delk. That's it. Hard to pick up easy assists with that crew. Hawks were last in the league in 3 pt shooting.

Who could Lue get easy assists from? Who could he count on at the end of the clock?

[exodus]

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Also might I ask why you are using old numbers, a.k.a. Lue's career year

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I am using an entire season as opposed to 10 games. Do you really think 10 game numbers are more relevant than season long numbers?