JJ = Elite SG!

[Diesel]

When they put up the stat last night of JJ vs. Ham vs. Vince vs. Tmac over the last 20.. I started thinking, why wasn't JJ an allstar again??

I think it's our record and our record alone that makes JJ not considered an elite SG. However, I think he is. Unfortunately, he doesn't have the personality to be "The Man" vocally.

[joannes3000]

Not yet. Here's my ordered list of elite SGs:

Kobe

Flash

TMac (sg/sf?)

AI

That's it. Nobody else combines offensive and defensive ability. Offensively these guys can not only create on their own and hit the open shot, they draw enough attention without the ball that they are a true disruption on offense. Defensively these guys can lock down their defender and produce a lot of turnovers -> fast break opportunities, so not only do they defend one-on-one but they make team defense work.

Before JJ's contract is up, he will be in this category and hopefully we will be reworking a max contract for him. He's got all the makings of a superstar guard and has shown definite glimpses this year.

[chillzatl]

To be considered elite, you have to put up 25+ppg AND consistantly be "The Man" for your team. Vince and Mcgrady are no longer elite IMO. JJ might be on the same level with those guys because he has become "The Man" for his team. But his scoring and domination isn't anywhere near the level of guys like AI, Kobe, Wade, Arenas, etc.

He's getting there though. As anyone who has paid attention recently will have seen, he certainly has the talent to do so. Now he needs to bring that mindset and desire EVERY night. He is becoming the player that BK (and very few others) saw that he could be.

[joannes3000]

I was torn on Vince and TMac because their level of play has dropped off on both sides of the ball but they can still bring it on any given night and do so for the most part (8/10?). But what about Boris ? He's looking like a triple double machine! Just kidding, you gotta give up talent to get talent.

[chillzatl]

Vince and Mcgrady have both faded. I wouldn't consider Tmac an elite player even if he were scoring 30ppg because he has zero heart. Neither he nor Carter have EVER played defense either.

Diaw is a product of the Phoenix Suns. That's not to say he has no talent. But he is NOT a triple double machine without having a lot of good, well thought out talent around him.

[joannes3000]

It's hard to put heart into the equation. As long as they dominate on both ends I could care less what they're motivated by or not motivated by.

And as for Diaw, I was just making light of the situation that we ended up with (having JJ here) and that the ends will indeed justify the means.

[chillzatl]

Indeed, we gave up a bag of apples and in return we got an apple pie with ice cream.

[Duff_Man]

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It's hard to put heart into the equation. As long as they dominate on both ends I could care less what they're motivated by or not motivated by.

And as for Diaw, I was just making light of the situation that we ended up with (having JJ here) and that the ends will indeed justify the means.

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Heart DOES factor in greatly. If MacGrady had 1/3 the heart that Jordan did, the Rockets would be title contenders. Instead, he just shoots non-stop and does little else. Until he rounds out his game and gets his team involved other than by being a decoy, he's not elite.

When I think of the elite players in the game, I think of Nash, Kidd, Duncan, Dirk...I may even put AK-47 up there because of his all-around game. Nash is a defensive liability, but he makes the offense so much better that it actually helps take pressure of them on the defensive end.

Think about it this way...would you rather have Jordan at 30ppg or Bernard King at 30ppg??

[Diesel]

first you say that Tmac is not an elite player because he lacks heart and then you say that Dirk is one? Come on man...

Tmac can and has carried teams as well as Kobe, Wade, or anybody else. I don't know where this question of heart comes from?

[joannes3000]

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first you say that Tmac is not an elite player because he lacks heart and then you say that Dirk is one? Come on man...

Tmac can and has carried teams as well as Kobe, Wade, or anybody else. I don't know where this question of heart comes from?

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Honestly, there is a question of heart when it comes to TMac. Undoubtedly, if he showed more of a desire to be elite he has the talent to achieve that. Which is something I've said in the past - it's too bad kids end up using their talent as a crutch and end up as cripples.

[Diesel]

If you question Tmac's heart, why not question Kobe's too?

I mean, when I think about Heart, I think of a player who's willing to do anything so that his team will win. Sorta like Artest. I see Artest doing anything for the win.

Well, Kobe has yet to show that he's willing to share the ball.... and the Lakers remain an average team.

[Nicholasp27]

i've been saying he's a top 5 sg

[swolehawk2]

T Mac has never played a lick of defense in his life....and recently he basically plays when he wants to.

[chillzatl]

please man, Tmacs lack of heart has been well documented. From his "I don't want to be the man" claims in Orlando to his crying and eventual trade to Houston. He is a guy who can handle it when eveything goes great and his team is good. But when his team isn't, his lack of heart and character show through. The only team that he carried was Orlando in that first year (when Ghill pulled up lame).

Dirk may or may not be a leader. But he gives his all and he has yet to shy away from the criticism when his team isn't doing well or shy away from his role of being the best player on his team.

[chillzatl]

and eventually, as I knew it would, it all comes back to kobe Vs. Tmac. You like Tmac, you don't like Kobe.

Kobe's desire, heart and competitiveness have NEVER been questioned. Kobe has NEVER tried to hide from being the best player on his team and has never ran from the spotlight and criticism that comes with that role, EVEN on a bad team.

Tmac is only "the man" when everything is going well. He doesn't have the mental toughness to be the man on a bad team. He wilts like lettuce in the sun.

Oh, Kobe's team isn't good because....his team isn't good. To subtly suggest that a guy averaging 35/5/5 on 45% shooting is somehow hurting his team is a joke.

[joannes3000]

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Tmac is only "the man" when everything is going well. He doesn't have the mental toughness to be the man on a bad team. He wilts like lettuce in the sun.

Oh, Kobe's team isn't good because....his team isn't good. To subtly suggest that a guy averaging 35/5/5 on 45% shooting is somehow hurting his team is a joke.

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I agree with the first part somewhat. But instead of wilting, it seemed like Kobe's natural reaction was to become the sun and have everyone else around him wilt. Would any other team have willingly let Phil Jackson leave? Would any other team have willingly let Shaq leave?

I still agree that this is a product of Kobe's desire which TMac can definitely be questioned about.

The second part brings up the question that always gets asked when it comes to MVP talk. Is someone elite only because of their personal stat lines or because of the bottom line (winning)? I think it's a mix of both (take out the player from the team and how much winning would they do) and Kobe definitely qualifies as an MVP superstar.

Getting back on track with the question of whether JJ is a superstar, he's halfway there. He's got the statlines and we would be a whole lot worse without him. But we aren't winning enough or consistently yet for me to crown him a full on star.

[TheDude]

Jordan didn't have any more "heart" than a lot of these guys...what he had was COMPETITIVE FIRE...Jordan is a very very competitive man, that's what got him in trouble with gambling and why some of the young guys didn't like him in Washington..

[Diesel]

than Kobe.

Kobe kills everything around him. How does Kobe-Shaq not beat Detroit. It wasn't because Detroit was a great team. It was because Detroit was a better team than LAL. That's Kobe's doing. Kobe has always wanted the circle.

Well he has had it for the last 2 years. And standing in the same shoes Tmac stood in last year, Kobe did exactly what I said he would... Wilted. This year... They might not make the playoffs. It's not that Kobe doesn't have talent around him... It's that he can't function next to talented players.

Tmac plays better when yao is in the game.

[Diesel]

Exactly.

Many people can't tell the difference. I think MJ is probably the most competitive player that ever played. His heart (win at all cost) allowed him to change his game so that his team can play with him. KOBE doesn't have that yet...

[Duff_Man]

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Exactly.

Many people can't tell the difference. I think MJ is probably the most competitive player that ever played. His heart (win at all cost) allowed him to change his game so that his team can play with him. KOBE doesn't have that yet...

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Kobe has 3 rings. What did he kill those years? Speaking of killed, how many times has Mcgrady been out of the first round?

And if that Pistons team was better than the Lakers then why have superstars at all?