Diesel- TMAC better than Kobe? read SLAM!

[cyman3]

Yo DIESEL, lets go back to the KOBE/McGRADY debate... whos better? the big question.... who is plain out, the best complete player in the NBA?

By NO MEANS am i trying to defend KOBE and think KOBE is the better player out of the two.... IMO, they even! if one is BETTER, its by very very little... like comparing 5.00000000002 with 5.00000000003

Did u read the new issue of SLAM with KOBE and his black LAKERS jersey on the cover? if u havent and got like $3 to spend, go get it! it's a good article. shoot, u can just go to a grocery store and read it there....

Anyways, when it comes to stats... u agree that McGrady and Bryant have similar stats. But when it comes down to "who's the better player..." u EMPHASIZE the WINS as ur main comparison between the two. am i not rite? You say that the DIFFERENCE between McGRADY and KOBE is the W (which McGrady has as of rite now).

ok, thats cool... lets talk about that then, the big W! u say that McGrady is better cuz he has more Wins than Kobe. Lets TOTALLY take out all the games since SHAQ's played this year.

Lakers record = i forgot, but it sucked.... losing record

Magic record = i forgot, but it was good... winning record

Now, lets look at the two teams...

Lakers best player when shaqs not playing (KOBE)

Magics best player = McGrady...

take out McGrady and Bryant... out of the Magic/Lakers, who is the next best player? GRANT HILL!

ok, that out Grant Hill/McGrady/Bryant.... out of the Magic/Lakers, NOW who is the best player? MIKE MILLER!

c'mon man!!!! the team isint fair, so u cannot say that Magic's wins make MCGRADY the better player... and dont u dare use the lakers (plus SHAQ) vs Magic game (1 game this season) as ur evidence of "whos the better player."

When finals come down and it was MAGIC/LAKERS, i'll bet u that the lakers would win...

im going to end u with one peice of note... cyman3's rephrased quote from SLAM...

"McGrady believes that hes the best player in the L... the only player in the same category as McGrady is KOBE BRYANT!"

SO DIESEL... my main points

1)U cannot use the WINS/LOSS statistic to prove who is the better player

2)If u dont like Bryant because of his attitude or other personality character, then thats fine... but DO NOT MIX UP TALENT with CHARACTER!

3)McGrady = Bryant... switch shoes and McGrady would have 3 rings, while Bryant would have a winning record RITE NOW playing along with GRANT HILL...

[Diesel]

The ones who say Kobe is better like to say that the Lakers have won 3 championships and use that as reason why Kobe is better.

My point is that with Shaq on his team, Kobe has the LUXURY of never facing a constant double. The Luxury of NEVER having to CARRY his team and make those around him better. Shaq by existence will make his teammates better. However, Kobe hasn't had that opportunity.

THEN when compared to TMac, Tmac faces Doubles every game. Since he has been in Orlando, he has Never had a real Low Post threat. Earlier in the season, Kobe tasted what Life without SHaq would be Like. AND what it came down to is that Kobe Cannot CARRY his team. It's really silly to say that Kobe is the BEST SG in the game when he hasn't proven it... Put Iverson, Carter, McGrady, or Pierce in Kobe's place and they would look the same or even better. [censored], even Eddie Jones was a sought after Allstar playing next to Shaq.

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take out McGrady and Bryant... out of the Magic/Lakers, who is the next best player? GRANT HILL!

ok, that out Grant Hill/McGrady/Bryant.... out of the Magic/Lakers, NOW who is the best player? MIKE MILLER!

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WHich Grant Hill. The allstar from 4 yrs ago or the guy who has been hurt off and on for the last 3 yrs. Hill is good but McGrady has CARRIED the Magic for that last 2 yrs without him. And even this yr, Hill is not the player that you can count on. Secondly. IS Mike Miller better than Robert Horry?

Is Pat Garrity better than Devean George. Is Armstrong better than Fisher. Is Declerq better than Walker?

Those are all about even. Tmac hasn't had great scenery around him since he's been in Orlando.

However on to your points:

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U cannot use the WINS/LOSS statistic to prove who is the better player

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I agree. I prefer to use... FG%, DEFENSE, Three point shooting. and the knowledge that Tmac gets it done while constantly facing doubles and triples.

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McGrady = Bryant... switch shoes and McGrady would have 3 rings, while Bryant would have a winning record RITE NOW playing along with GRANT HILL...

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Actually, TMac is a better defensive player. A better Shooter. A better shooter from outside. A guy who can carry his team.

This is what we have. 2 guys. Similar Stats (but not identical)... One guy is all that his team has. He carries his team. He always takes the last shot. He always faces the double team. The other guy is a second option playing with the best player in basketball. It's like Comparing Nique to Pippen. Sure Pippen has good numbers, but Pippen has never faced a double. He has never carried his team.

[cyman3]

1)"My point is that with Shaq on his team, Kobe has the LUXURY of never facing a constant double. The Luxury of NEVER having to CARRY his team and make those around him better. Shaq by existence will make his teammates better. However, Kobe hasn't had that opportunity."

- Earlier this season Kobe had the opportunity. According to the SLAM magazine, Kobe was FRUSTRATED/PISSED at people like u (who thinks his game isint as good as others like McGrady because of SHAQ). He makes his points clear.. he basically says "If u want me to drop 30 or 40 a game, i can do that on another team. But if u want me to win a championship, i cant do that without the Big Man (Shaq)."

same issue with McGrady. If McGrady played in LA (somehow got traded for Bryant), his numbers would be similar to Bryants and the Lakers would win another championship while Bryant would be putting up the NUMBERS in orlando.

how much Lakers success goes to SHAQ? Shaq wouldnt have won the 3 rings without KOBE!

2)"Put Iverson, Carter, McGrady, or Pierce in Kobe's place and they would look the same or even better."

- thats a straight up opinion. AND I DISAGREE. I think they would look the same, but not necessarily BETTER.

Eddie Jones' game declined a while ago, he isint that 20+ ppg scorer he used to be. NVE's game isint as good as it once was, although he still gets it done at times...

3)Which GRANT HILL? [censored], the NEW GRANT HILL is still good! hes not the same player he once was, but dammit- hes pretty close! I wouldnt be surprised if he was an allstar this year. And YES, MIKE MILLER is better than HORRY.... or at least it seems like it. It may be the COACHING, but [censored] MIKE MILLER is playing well.

Kobe didnt have any players with GRANT HILL or MIKE MILLER talent when SHAQ was hurt. The next best player was what... Horry? [censored], Horry is only a DECENT STARTER at PF... if you think HORRY and MILLER are about same, talent wise... why dont LAKERS/MAGIC trade the two players?

Lakers get MILLER, Magic get Horry. It makes sense since LAKERS need a 3rd scorer and the MAGIC lack good BIG MAN (since u suggest HORRY is as good as miller but in a PF form).

4)Peirce has WALKER... Carters team SUCKS.... Iverson is a special case...

does Tmac even face double teams? Is there any SG worthy of being doubled team in the NBA now that jordan is old? If hes doubled team, scrubs like PAT GARRITY would hit the 3 easily. Teams dont double team like they used to, Diesel. They mostly double team BIG MAN these days... like SHAQ and even SHAREEF.

FINAL NOTE.. again, im not saying KOBE is better... im just saying that its like comparing APPLES and ORANGES.

oh yeah, give KOBE BRYANT some talent around him... w/o SHAQ- the lakers have 0 potential allstars. McGrady has 2 potential allstars in HILL and MILLER. And no, HORRY is not a potential allstar.

[Diesel]

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- Earlier this season Kobe had the opportunity. According to the SLAM magazine, Kobe was FRUSTRATED/PISSED at people like u (who thinks his game isint as good as others like McGrady because of SHAQ). He makes his points clear.. he basically says "If u want me to drop 30 or 40 a game, i can do that on another team. But if u want me to win a championship, i cant do that without the Big Man (Shaq)."

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Any gimp can score alot. Look at Tony Delk, Ced Ceballos, and Antwain Jamison. All of these guys can score. However, when you talk about being able to score and lead... Kobe didn't show that ability at all. He was led by the press more than he was led by what his team needed. Tmac on the other hand, goes out night after night and does what his team needs. Same with KG. Same with AI. Same with Vince. That's why without Shaq, you see Kobe fail. You see Kobe mad at THE TRIANGLE because it limits him?? Thats why you see Kobe berating his teammates because they are not doing anything. DID you watch any Orlando games last yr? When there was No Hill... Tmac went to work with a hardhat and he played good ball. If he was trying to please the press, Orlando wouldn't have done much.

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)"Put Iverson, Carter, McGrady, or Pierce in Kobe's place and they would look the same or even better."

- thats a straight up opinion. AND I DISAGREE. I think they would look the same, but not necessarily BETTER.

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Why is it that Eddie Jones was better playing beside shaq. D. Scott was better playing beside Shaq. Penny Hardaway was better playing beside Shaq. Derrick Fisher and Rick Fox are better playing beside Shaq.... BUT Kobe (and all these other guys) are somehow allergic to their ShaqFU vitamins? I mean, you see just a taste of how much better Tmac can be with another top scorer on the team. Imagine if that scorer was SHaq (who commands a double team) Shaq who draws the defense to him.... Tmac would shoot 80% and score about 38 ppg. Same goes for Iverson, Pierce, and [censored] even Ray Allen.

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the NEW GRANT HILL is still good! hes not the same player he once was, but dammit- hes pretty close! I wouldnt be surprised if he was an allstar this year.

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BS alert. BS Alert. First off, we both Know that Grant Hill has led Allstar votes when he played (until Carter) and he continues to be a fan favorite. But Hill is nowhere close to what he used to be. Hill's only putting up about 16 points and playing a gimpy 28-29 mpg.

[cyman3]

1)u got to see about 10 games of LIFE without SHAQ... all those 10 games or so, were the first 10 games or so of the season. Is 10 games enough data for u to conclude that McGrady is better? U got to see McGrady play a full season so u know what hes capable of... and u're watching Kobe for 10 games?

take this analogy... ur a AAU scout, u got 2 players... you can only add 1 more player to the team. U get to two players and work them out, to see who's better. The first guy has a HOUR to show u what hes got! the second guy only has 10 minutes to show u what hes got! c'mon now, who has the advantage there?

all im saying is that we need more games to tell...

2)"Thats why you see Kobe berating his teammates because they are not doing anything."

"When there was No Hill... Tmac went to work with a hardhat and he played good ball. If he was trying to please the press, Orlando wouldn't have done much."

these are all measurements of character/personality. it might give u a BIASED perspective... were looking at basketball talent here, not "who would be the better friend for ur son!"

btw, when ur losing... u get frustrated and [censored] breaks lose. While calling out players like S WALKER wasnt right for Kobe, didnt MCGRADY do the same thing with his team last year after losing in the playoffs?

when ur winning, theres no need to make bad remarks... but when ur losiing, people tend to do/say things they might regret.

lets totally take our personality/character from this debate and keep it straight up "whos the better player"

3)According to DIESEL, Shaq makes players better. Sure- all good players do that... MJ did it with the bulls. How do u know that KOBES teammates wouldnt be as good if they were on a different team?

so u say all those players arent as good anymore since they miss SHAQ... well lets RECAP!

a)Penny Hardaway got INJURED BADLY and missed a full season man... if he wasnt hurt, who knows what he could have done

b)Eddie Jones... ur looking at the eddie jones of MIAMI HEAT (all washed up). Go look at his stats when he got traded to the HORNETS... he was JUST AS GOOD IF NOT BETTER!!!

c)D scott- wasnt he at his prime playing next to SHAQ?

d)Rick Fox was actually a better scoring THREAT before coming to LAKERS... he cut down on his attempts and worked on his defense. Basically, hes still the same player when he was on the CELTICS and when hes on the LAKERS!

e)FISHER- wasnt he drafted by the LAKERS? how u know he wouldnt be playing the same on a different team? u cant compare him on another team since he hasnt been on a different team other than Lakers.

so why did he get better after he got drafted? cuz MOST PLAYERS play better as they get older coming out of the draft til they reach their PRIME!!!

4)GRANT HILL's 16 ppg, .552 shooting%, 7.6 rpg, 4.7 apg is a COMPLETE PLAYER! better stats than anyone on the lakers not named SHAQ/KOBE. so when SHAQs out, he would be the 2nd best player on the team...

kobe could have used him during their slow beginning season.

5)Tmac would shoot 80% and score about 38 ppg.

- i would love to see him try... at least be realistic DIESEL, 50% at about 30 ppg