Top 10 players in the NBA

[Traceman]

1. Kobe

2. Lebron

3. Wade

4. Duncan

4. Dirk

6. KG

7. Shaq

8. Iverson

9. Nash

10. Arenas

11. Vince

12. T Mac

13. Yao

14. Kidd

15. Marion

I think T Mac is a top 5 talent and Yao is a top 10 talent if they can stay healthy.

[Weez]

talent and player ARE NOT the same thing.

TMac (and Vince) SHOULD be top five...but there's a reason they're not. Must be in the blood...

[Diesel]

I have started to feel less and less sure about Duncan being a top player. For years, the line on Duncan was " the big fundamental" and his place was secured by the success of his team. Well for the last few years, it hasn't been because of Duncan that the Spurs won. In fact, in some cases, it seemed like Duncan disappeared. When was the last time, Duncan really took over a big game. I don't mean ended up with 20 something, I mean took over. I think there are reasons why he doesn't take over anymore.

Therefore it's hard to rank him higher than guys who do take over, who can carry a team, and who are great talents.

An interesting point was made about Tmac/Vince. However, Tmac and Vince are every bit as good as Kobe. The difference is packaging. Kobe is imitating Tmac in Orlando. While back then, I looked at Tmac as being as good as Kobe, now, I say Tmac's injuries have made him to fall a little.

[chillzatl]

Are you honestly going to tell me that you degrade his status because he's finally (just over the last two years) gotten a team that allows him to NOT have to carry so much of the load? I think it only reinforces how great the guy is. He doesn't care about ME, all he cares about is winning. There are plenty of times, even last year and the year before, that Duncan stepped up when needed. That's a sign of his greatness. In the playoffs, when what had worked all year wasn't working (his teammates), Duncan put the team on his back and got them wins. 32ppg in the conference semi's, 25ppg playoff average last year! That's stepping up, that's greatness.

Furthermore, his career playoff stats exceed his career stats in every catagory. more points, more rebounds, more assists, more blocks, more minutes and surprisingly, his FG% doesn't drop! Compare that to any of these other so called "great players". He never plays outside himself and he rarely ever lets a team take him out of the game. If he had the personality of Shaq people would never question just how great he really is. But because he's a nice guy who doesn't insult people for laughs and talk about how great he is, people often don't consider him great.

He's also had some injuries to deal with over the last couple of years that slowed him a step. Yet he's always there with a big game, a big stop or a big rebound, whatever, whenever his team needs it. That's the hallmark of greatness. This year, when everyone was waiting for Shaq the Great to step up, Duncan was actually doing it.

[Diesel]

I'm saying that top guys have the ability to carry a team.. even if they don't need to, you know that they have it in them.

I don't think that Duncan falls into that category. I really don't know if he ever has. I think the team theme has worked out very well for him. He puts up good numbers by virtue that it's how the team is designed. However, he also needs the supporting cast in order to do what he does.

I'm saying a truly elite superstar doesn't need a supporting cast.

I still think that Duncan is a top 10 talent. I just think if you put him on Atlanta's team 2 years ago (in place of Walker), we still don't make the playoffs. I believe however, that if you put a guy like Brand on that team, we do.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

I'm saying that top guys have the ability to carry a team.. even if they don't need to, you know that they have it in them.

---

I strongly disagree. I think if Duncan plays on a team in 2004 with Chucky Atkins at PG, Caron Butler at SG, Lamar Odom at SF, Duncan at PF and Mihm at C they are going to make the playoffs.

Consensus #1 player in the league Kobe Bryant didn't.

The guy impacts the game dramatically on both ends of the floor. He opens the game up for other people. He carries his team in a big way and steps up when they need him. He isn't Jordan but he and Shaq are the most historically elite guys in the NBA right now, IMO. Lebron and some of the other youngsters have the potential to be there but

[chillzatl]

The guy has carried every team he's ever been on. The last two seasons are the only times in his pro career that he's ever had two players average more than 12ppg each. What you're trying to say is just ridiculous. Hell, I gave you a clearly defined example of him carrying his team against Dallas in the WCSF's last year. Without his superstar effort, they get blown out and swept by Dallas. That's only considering paper stats too. He does far more to make his team better than what shows up in the stat sheets.

I have nothing against Elton Brand, but to compare him to Duncan is laughable. This is the first season that Brand has even garnered notice as more than a "very good" player. It took a great supporting cast for that to happen too. Duncan has the rings, the hardware (two time MVP) and the stats to back up the assertion of his greatness.

[chillzatl]

exactly. If Duncan reminded everyone of how great he is, like Shaq does, people would recognize what he does. But he's not like that, so people downplay him. Duncan is the one guy in the league that I would put on ANY team and have no hesitation in guaranteeing a playoff berth.

[Diesel]

You see, that's just my point.

I'm not saying that Duncan's cast is better than Duncan. I'm saying that without his cast, he couldn't do it. YOu said that this is the first year that Brand has been looked at as more than a very good player. However, Brand hasn't done much different than he has done his whole career.

It's just now, his team wins.

You prove my point by trying to show Duncan's greatness by showing his hardware. That's where the problem comes for me. I don't think you can truly justify a player as being elite by showing the hardware. If that were the case then Somebody would have a case for Horace Grant being Elite.

Teams win championships and sometimes an elite player just doesn't have the horses behind him to win it all.

That being the case, I recall your attention to the Spurs Championship over the Pistons. It wasn't Tim Duncan that caused them to win. Actually Tim Duncan was a no show (for the most part). It was Mano Ginobilli who did all the damage. It was Ginobilli who was unstoppable. YET, they looked at the statistics and gave the MVP to Duncan.

And that's how it happens most of the time. Parker or Ginobilli is key in a series and Duncan gets all the credit. I'm not saying that Duncan is not good. He does what he does very well. I'm saying that he gets more credit than he deserves because his team is successful.

Have him trade places with KG.

Everybody talks about how KG is a flop and this and that but if you put KG with the Spurs, the Spurs would run over the West. If you put Duncan with the Twolves, I doubt they'd do much more than they've already done.

[Weez]

one caveat you have to consider when bringing Brand into this argument...Cassell. You mention KG...but he's been (essentially) no where before or after Cassell...

this has been a running trend in Cassell's career or hurts your argument about Brand's 'newfound' press and abilities...

[AHF]

Quote:

---

If you put Duncan with the Twolves, I doubt they'd do much more than they've already done.

---

Duncan with the T-Wolves guarantees multiple trips past the first round of playoffs, IMO.

Porter

Rider

Googs

Laetner

Duncan

* * * *

Marbury

West

Googs

Duncan

Garret

* * * *

Marbury

Peeler

Mitchell

Googs

Duncan

* * * *

Marbury/Branden

Peeler

Mitchell

the infamous Joe Smith

Duncan

* * * *

Brandon

Sealy

Szerbiak

Smith

Duncan

* * * *

Brandon

Peeler

Szerbiak

Smith or Nesterovich

Duncan

* * * *

Brandon/Billups

Sczerbiak

Smith

Duncan

Nesterovich

* * * *

Hudson

Gill

Sczerbiak

Duncan

Nesterovich

* * * *

Cassell

Sprewell

Hassell

Duncan

Kandi

* * * *

Cassell

Sprewell

Hassell/Sczerbiak

Duncan

Kandi

* * * *

Banks

Davis

Hassell

Duncan

Blount

*******************

Guaranteed, more than one of those years the T-Wolves advance in the playoffs.

[shug94]

1. Dirk Nowitzki

2. LeBron James

3. Kevin Garnett

4. Shawn Marion

5. Gilbert Arenas

6. Kobe Bryant

7. Tim Duncan

8. Paul Pierce

9. Elton Brand

10. Steve Nash