NBA has a credibility problem

[Diesel]

It is true. Now, the sport that I love the most has a credibility problem. The real truth is that there is no defense for the NBA. It's not just one ref got caught fixing games, it's a whole dirty secret that has gotten out.

Before there was no level playing field. Stern believed in protecting his stars... So refs didn't call the game down the line all the time. Now, Stern says " we have a 'rogue' Referee... who acted without our knowledge." It's very unfortunate because this "rogue" was a guy who the NBA viewed as one of the better refereees? He did work the playoffs (hello Suns fans.). He was responsible for 2 quick fouls on Amare in game 3 of the Suns-Spurs series. When you really step back and consider that the NBA does better by having it's best teams and biggest franchises go farther in the playofss, how can you immediately dismiss the notion that the NBA has a credibility problem. Before Stern could cry out "rubbish, show me proof". Well, Mr. Stern your proof has been found and presented. The only real question is how far down does the rabbit hole go?

[Diesel]

I say we question the fixed draft lottery!

[exodus]

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I say we question the fixed draft lottery!

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Ummmm u sure you want to bring this up?

funniest thread ever part 1

funniest thread ever part 2

[Lascar78]

The thing is, having a commissioner/league tell the refs to protect the stars is completely different from a guy shaving points to hit or miss a gambling spread. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

Yes there's a PR disaster. But really, this doesn't prove or disprove that the league wants to help the stars with calls or anything like this. The only connection here is that it shows that a ref can look competent and yet influence the game. But we all already knew that. The bigger issue with the NBA's critics is whether the league wants the refs to protect the stars or if it just happens because it's the easier way out for the refs and they just tend to give better players the benefit of the doubt on close calls. And this case does absolutely nothing to prove or disprove that.

Yet people are going to say "see I've been complaining about NBA refs, and now it's been proven that they're crooked". Yet the type of problem that most people complaining about (preferential treatment for stars/home teams) has absolutely nothing to do with a guy with the mob down his neck shaving points to save his ass.

I've always thought that it's ridiculous to think that the league would taint the reffing to pick the teams that win etc... because they have SO MUCH to lose versus what they'd gain. It's not even close. However an individual ref with mounting mob debt is in a lose lose situation and you could see that the risk-reward is much closer to being worth it. You only have so much more to lose once the mob is going to get you if you don't cheat.

Either way, I think a lot of good will come out of this scandal in the long run as the league will have to make improvements to the whole refereeing system. I think that the league can't be held responsible for a guy turning to the dark side. But the part that looks really bad is that he got above average reviews. The league will have to re-do their system of evaluating refs. They are already the only league that reviews every game for every ref as far as I know, but apparently it's not cutting it. The truth is he probably was an above average ref. Unfortunately basketball has more close calls than any other sport, and a good ref will know which calls he could call the other way and get away with.

[Yeti]

Don't worry it's not just basketball. It's everything ... a ref in the NBA, Vick and the NFL, Pacman, Bonds and steroids, drugs and the Tour de France, boxing, wrestling, fixed NASCARs, drugs and track, ... If there is money and fame involved, people screw it up ... even the bimbo white girls (Hilton, Lohan).

[Duff_Man]

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Don't worry it's not just basketball. It's everything ... a ref in the NBA, Vick and the NFL, Pacman, Bonds and steroids, drugs and the Tour de France, boxing, wrestling, fixed NASCARs, drugs and track, ... If there is money and fame involved, people screw it up ... even the bimbo white girls (Hilton, Lohan).

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I have a tough time figuring out how Vick's off-field stuff has anything to do with the NFL's credibility.

[Diesel]

If you have an unlevel playing field in the first place, how do you go behind the guy and determine if what he's doing is on the up and up?? I mean, this guy was a playoff referee. That means that the National referee organization looked over his work and said "it's good".

How are you supposed to judge a judge when all the judges are told that it's OK to be crooked?

The remedy is very simple. Take basketball refereeing back to a level playing field for every player.

THEN

Dieselputer says...

Make Gambling Legal and let Vegas control the refereeing monitoring. Vegas knew that this guy was crooked a long time ago. I say Vegas, but what I mean is use the same infrastructure that the professionals use to monitor gamble. Las Vegas is very good at determining what's on the up and up. The have means that the NBA could only dream of. Moreover, I'm sure that if you legalized gambling and put a tax on it, there would be no more debt in USA!!! I'm thinking at least 100s of billions per year.

[Diesel]

I just think that you can always say individuals will try to cheat. However, to prove that the refs... who are the governing body has a hand in determining the outcome of games is much more serious than any of those other references you make.

[Lascar78]

Quit being retarded.

First of all, we don't know that he did anything wrong in the games. We know that he's being investigated for giving gamblers information on the games. He may or may not have shaved points.

Secondly, basketball has a ton of calls that could go either way. A good ref who wants to cheat will do so on calls that could go either way, he will just always choose to go to the side he prefers. That doesn't mean that the auditors don't detect bad refs, much less that they're told it's ok to be crooked. Even you can't possibly believe that so why bother? The fact is that if this guy did cheat in some games, he was good enough to do it in subtle ways on plays where the call could have gone either way.

Secondly, the idea of putting Vegas in charge of monitoring the refs is retarded. Why not just skip the middle man and put the Mob in charge.

Thirdly, I do think gambling should be legal. But it would lead to a huge spike in personal debt. People get desperate and lose everything they own. You can see how even a guy with a good job like Donaghy got desperate and turned to the dark side. Vegas wasn't built with winners' money.

[Diesel]

You are such a naive retarded fool. You say we don't know if he did anything wrong?? WHere have you been?

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Those studying Donaghy's games might have noticed some trends.

When the home team was favored by 0-4 1/2 points, it went 5-12 against the spread in games officiated by Donaghy this season, according to Covers.com, a Web site that tracks referee trends. Home underdogs were 1-7 against the spread when it was 5-9.5 points.

Donaghy was part of a crew working the Heat-Knicks game in New York in February when the Knicks shot 39 free throws to the Heat's eight, technical fouls were called on Heat coach Pat Riley and assistant Ron Rothstein, and the Knicks won by six. New York was favored by 4 1/2.

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[Lascar78]

That's all circumstantial. You can pick any single ref and pour through their hundreds of games and find games or series of games where weird things happened.

And again, I'm not saying he didn't shave points. I'm saying at this point, we don't know. If the FBI told Stern he was shaving points, he would have said it now rather than later. If they only told him so far that they know he bet on games but they don't know if he shaved points, then it is what it is. We don't know yet. You might strongly suspect, but we don't know for sure.

[Diesel]

If there is no gambling, why is he to testify against the mob?

Referees in the NBA are not even supposed to go into a casino... HE did.

That's enough wrong right there.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole loaf Lascar.

[Weez]

where have you seen that he did? all published reports say that the League looked into it and could find no evidence attesting to his presence at such places...

[thesheedera]

I've gotta agree with Diesel on (EDIT: at least part of) this one. I have no idea what the guy did or how many times he did it, but I'd bet every dime I've ever had that he's done SOMETHING wrong and that the SOMETHING he did has put the integrity of the games he's officiated into question. He and the refs he works with are judge and jury on the NBA floor. One of them betraying the integrity of the game goes well beyond even the disgrace of a player or coach doing the same.

This isn't just rumor mongering. Stern wouldn't be this upset if there was a chance the guy was guilt free and just an innocent victim.

[AHF]

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If there is no gambling, why is he to testify against the mob?

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The radio report I heard while driving on 680 the fan was that there are no real mob ties here. According to Perry, two guys from Donaghe's high school worked illegally as bookies and pretended to have mob connections when they were actually not involved with the mob at all. Sounds like it may not be such a big story.

[Diesel]

There was no obligatory "this is just an accusation" from Stern.

In fact...

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"I feel betrayed by what happened on behalf of the sport, regardless of how protective I've been," he said. "This is not something that is anything other than an act of betrayal of what we know in sports as a sacred trust."

Besides allegedly placing his own wagers, investigators also are examining whether Donaghy provided inside information to others, including referees' schedules, according to a person familiar with the investigation.

"Not only aren't they permitted to either gamble or provide information to people," Stern said, "they may not even provide other than to their immediate family the details of their travel schedules or the games they are going to work."

What Stern Said

NBA commissioner David Stern met with the media Tuesday to discuss the Tim Donaghy situation. Watch the complete news conference.

The FBI first contacted the NBA on June 20 to talk about a referee alleged to be gambling on games, and the two sides met on June 21, Stern said. Donaghy resigned July 9, though Stern said he would have fired him sooner but was told it might affect the investigation.

Although Donaghy has not yet been charged with a crime, Stern said the referee's lawyer told the league his client is contemplating a plea.

But as far as Stern is concerned, "If you bet on a game, you lose the benefit of the doubt."

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I think it's quite clear...

If the guy is going to plea...Doesn't that mean he's guilty. IF he's not guilty, why is stern calling him "1 rogue official"... Come on Lascar, get a clue.

[Diesel]

Without the mob...

You have a ref who is betting on games that he has the means to determine the outcome of.

The credibility of the game just took a hit.

[AHF]

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Without the mob...

You have a ref who is betting on games that he has the means to determine the outcome of.

The credibility of the game just took a hit.

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No argument there. Anytime there is a reason to question whether the games are on a level playing field, that is a terrible thing for a sport.

[Lascar78]

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If there is no gambling, why is he to testify against the mob?

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Do you even read my posts? As I said the first time:

we don't know that he did anything wrong in the games. We know that he's being investigated for giving gamblers information on the games. He may or may not have shaved points.

There are 2 different potential crimes here:

-Giving gamblers info he's not allowed to give (who will be refereeing, real injury status...)

-Point shaving where he actually makes bad calls to influence the point spread

We know that he's being investigated on the first, and he's probably guilty. We don't know if he's being investigated on the second.

David Stern Says:

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I have to choose my words carefully. His current state is what

we are dealing with is betting and providing information.

I don't know about any charges or any discussions or anything else with regard to fixing of games.

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THAT was my point. He very well may have shaved points. But so far we've mostly heard vague rumors. There is no official FBI statement. There is no official Donaghy statement. The only official word we have is Stern, and he is saying that as far as he knows they are investigating him gambling on games and providing insider info. That's bad, but not nearly as bad as point shaving. Stern would have no reason to lie about something that will come out anyhow. So either there is no point shaving, or the FBI didn't tell the league about it yet.

So again, I'm not saying I think there was no point shaving. I'm just saying it's far from an established fact and you shouldn't state stuff like "all the judges are told that it's OK to be crooked" as if it's a fact.

[Boondocks]

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You have a ref who is betting on games that he has the means to determine the outcome of.

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a) indeed like said before he gave information on what crew were officiating what match. The league keeps this a secret until before tipoff as referees have certain tendencies that influences the likely outcome of the game (not who wins but the final score)

b) after a lot of number crunching, Donaghy is suspected of making sure the games had a final score over the expected Vegas betting, not who wins. So calling more fouls and technicals then necessary to drive up the score, not betting on a team to win.