Good game for Marv to watch on tv

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Don't be stupid. It was easy to see I was mainly talking about on the offensive end. He is obviously not going to blow past people and score. Moreover, Bowen's defense has more to do with basketball IQ and borderline tactics more than anything else.

bowen is a role player on offense and a shutdown defender.

Childress is a role player on offense and a weak defender.

Trying to draw a parallel between the two is what's stupid.

[Plainview1981]

My point was obviously that even the best role players have some weaknesses that can often be a factor. It's the same with Ben Wallace. Even in his prime there were plenty of times his lack of offense was a serious weakness. That doesn't mean you trade these players away because you need good role players to win.

Childress has his weakness, but he also does things that the other players on this team don't have the guts to do. Score around the basket and play with good basketball IQ. Like I said, there is a reason a team like the Spurs wants him. Their desire to add him to their roster says more to me than anything you say or any site you link.

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It's the same with Ben Wallace. Even in his prime there were plenty of times his lack of offense was a serious weakness

Wallace was a 4 time DPOY. His offensive weakness wasn't much of a problem because he was surrounded by 4 guys (Rip, Billups, Prince, Sheed) who could score.

Childress' problem is that his weaknesses stand out more for us than they would for other teams. We don't have Duncan to cover up for his defensive weaknesses. We are a weak outside shooting team so Childress' weak outside shot is more of a problem.

Childress would fit in much better with the Spurs than he does here.

[Guest Walter]

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Childress' problem is that his weaknesses stand out more for us than they would for other teams. We don't have Duncan to cover up for his defensive weaknesses. We are a weak outside shooting team so Childress' weak outside shot is more of a problem.

With Bibby our perimeter shooting weakness is certainly diminished. In fact, with Bibby and JJ I believe Childress is a better fit than pretty rim shot wonder MW. I know you don't much like either of JC and MW, I'm just saying that one of the most efficient wings ever in JC has a place as a starter on many teams, particularly those with perimeter shooting, and on all teams as a 6th man.

W

[exodus]

If Childress was a good defender then i wouldn't have a problem with his offensive limitations. Problem is he is a very weak defender and the rest of the team isn't good enough to consistently compensate for his weakness.

Marvin can actually do a fairly good job guarding Lebron. He just needs to learn to box Lebron out. Childress vs lebron = disaster.

[Plainview1981]

Wallace was a 4 time DPOY. His offensive weakness wasn't much of a problem because he was surrounded by 4 guys (Rip, Billups, Prince, Sheed) who could score.

It doesn't change the fact that role players have weaknesses. I never said Childress was as good as Ben Wallace. I said even the best role players have weaknesses.

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We are a weak outside shooting team so Childress' weak outside shot is more of a problem.

-The Hawks are a weak defensive team

-The Hawks are a weak halfcourt team

-The Hawks are a weak team in the post

-The Hawks are a weak basketball IQ team

-The Hawks have no offensive system

-The Hawks have no scheme on defense. They either play on one defense or try and double everybody.

Everybody on the team can't be a star player or put up huge numbers. It's not Childress fault that the Hawks have been a bad outside shooting team. If anything, it's Marvin Williams or Salim's fault for not filling that role. Marvin was the guy drafted second and was

expected to be a big impact player. Marvin Williams should be traded for either a center or a SF that can hit the outside shot.

Btw, Ben Wallace was in Detroit before the guys you listed.

With better schemes, Childress weakness will not stand out so much. The 3pt shooting problem already appears to have improved. Now the Hawks need a scheme on defense. They're not giving up 100PPG the last few weeks because of Josh Childress.

Look at GS... Nelly has found away to work around the players weaknesses and have made them a good team.

[Plainview1981]

Bibby is already covering for alot of Childresses offensive limitations. When the Hawks get a coach that teaches good TEAM defense that will cover JC's weaknesses on defense... The same for Bibby. He is a very weak defensive player also. A good team defense would make that less noticeable as well. Just like Rip doesn't look like an average/below average defensive player now.

Look at the 2001 Pistons that only gave up 92PPG

Chucky Atkins

Jerry Stackhouse

Cliff Robinson

Corliss Williamson

Ben Wallace

Does that look like a shutdown defense to you? It's amazing what good coaching can do for a team.

The bench for the Hawks is already thin enough as it is. It can't afford the loss of Childress. The Hawks can afford to lose Marvin. Other teams might think he is better than he actually is so he might have more value. In the offseason he can probably be traded for some help at center and the Hawks can pickup a decent SF to start.

[Guest Walter]

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If Childress was a good defender then i wouldn't have a problem with his offensive limitations. Problem is he is a very weak defender and the rest of the team isn't good enough to consistently compensate for his weakness.

Marvin can actually do a fairly good job guarding Lebron. He just needs to learn to box Lebron out. Childress vs lebron = disaster.

...then show me a stat anywhere that indicates MW is better than JC overall. MW isn't, his defense isn't much better than JC's and offensively, while both are limited, JC's limitations fit much better between Bibby and JJ's shooting than MW's inability to do thing but have a pretty looking but not very effective mid-range J.

It's close, but I'd keep JC with Bibby and JJ if only by taking into account MW should have higher trade value because of his "potential" and draft position hype.

W

W

[TroyMcClure]

I may agree with you about MW's trade value tipping the balance. But Childress is an absolute joke to me. The sooner we rid ourselves of him, the better, imo. I'm not saying we should throw him away. i just think we should try to convince someone he's worth more than he is. His skill set is awful, imo. His j puts it over the top for me. If he shot like an adult we would have a very different conversation here. Fact is he doesn't and never will.

[exodus]

You still aren't getting it.

Lebron is the best player in the conference and probably will be for awhile. If Marvin is gone who can guard him? Nobody. We will be forced to double constantly leaving wide open shooters all over the place.

Childress blows on defense. his offensive weaknesses aren't going away. he can't really improve his outside game. he isn't going to get stronger or faster.

As frustrating as Marvin is a lot of his weaknesses are can be eliminated. If he would just stop diving into people when he drives that would solve a lot of problems right there. If he would just extend his range by a step he would be hitting 3s and do a better job extending the defense.

So far this season he has shown that he is developing an in between game, starting to shoot those floaters in the lane. he has been back rimming a lot of them but he looks comfortable with the shot.

I just don't think our defense can afford to lose Marvin. A 123 combo of Bibby/JJ/Childress would be one of the slowest in the league.

[Plainview1981]

Who gives a damn about shooting jumpers? The Hawks already have a roster full of guys that shoot jumpshots: Marvin Williams, Richardson, Salim, JJ, Bibby. Wasn't Acie supposed to be a 3pt shooter in college? It's really laughable to me that people here cream in their pants over an unskilled scrub like Mario West and want to trade Childress and call him a joke.

[Plainview1981]

Marvin Williams can't guard Lebron James.

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Marvin Williams can't guard Lebron James.

Obviously nobody can shut down Lebron. But marvin can guard him better than anyone we have by far. Lebron has a hard time beating Marvin off the dribble and Marvin's length can bother his shots. He forces Lebron into taking tough shots.

The last time we played them if Marvin had just boxed Lebron out Lebron's numbers would have been pretty weak.

[Plainview1981]

IF the Hawks are going to be successful on defense it is mostly going to be a team effort. Unless you have a Bruce Bowen that is what it is often going to come down to. All of this is one reason why you fire Woody and bring in Brown now. That way you have a better idea of what you need to do in the offseason.

[thesheedera]

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Everybody on the team can't be a star player or put up huge numbers. It's not Childress fault that the Hawks have been a bad outside shooting team. If anything, it's Marvin Williams or Salim's fault for not filling that role. Marvin was the guy drafted second and was

expected to be a big impact player.

I've been with you for the most part but come on now.

a) You can't claim that you draft at #2 for impact but at #6 for a role player. #6 is still pretty damn high! So far, neither have made the impact we hoped for when we drafted them. At different times though, they've both made very solid contributions to making this team better. the problem is that neither has been consistent enough.

b) Marvin wasn't drafted to be an outside shooter, so blaming him for the lack of 3 point shooting is ridiculous. His ability to hit jumpshots was a high mark on his scouting report, but no one expected him to come in and be Ray Allen. He never showed NBA range in college, the hope was that he could extend it, but he wasn't drafted as a "shooter". Salim was a 2nd rounder, you can't blame team weakness on a 2nd rounder!

This is a personnel problem, first and foremost.

[exodus]

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IF the Hawks are going to be successful on defense it is mostly going to be a team effort.

Childress is a weak man and help defender. he is slow to rotate to outside shooters and frequently gets hung up on screens.

It isn't like JJ and Bibby can compensate for Childress' weak D and the Horford/Smith duo have enough responsibility already.

[Plainview1981]

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a) You can't claim that you draft at #2 for impact but at #6 for a role player. #6 is still pretty damn high! So far, neither have made the impact we hoped for when we drafted them. At different times though, they've both made very solid contributions to making this team better. the problem is that neither has been consistent enough.

I don't agree. I think Marvin when drafted was expected to be a 20-25PPG scorer. He was taken over two PG's with very high potential. I didn't even see Childress in college, but you could see in his highlights that he was never going to be an explosive player.

Where has Childress not been consistent? He has had two really unproductive games this month and they came in back to back games. He has average his 12PPG in every month this year but one. He has shot 55% or above in every month this season. He has averaged basically 5RPG every single month.

Where is this inconsistent play you speak of?

[Plainview1981]

There will not take away his weakness, but good team defense will help. Like I said, good coaching can really make alot of weaknesses look better. I've already given you examples with the likes of Stackhouse and Rip. Teams shoot 34% in 3's against the Hawks. That's tied for the second lowest percentage wise.

Last night it was Brad Miller killing the Hawks. Shame on Childress and his bad defense. The night before that it was Tim Duncan that had the big game... In the Utah game Boozer went for 21/12. Where was Starvin Marvin? Against the Kings the first time it was again Brad Miller and Beno both had huge games. Yeah, Artest had a huge game, but I haven't seen anybody on this team that has slowed him down.

Childress job is to score off the bench and be consistent at it and that is what he does. Also fill in as a starter when needed and he took care of that last night.

Like I said, it's laughable that people are calling a 13/5 player that shoots 58% a joke and cream in their pants when a bum like Mario West makes a layup or provides energy for 3 or 4 minutes. Sign him up through next season! Nevermind that he hasn't shown one legit skill! Sign him up!

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Childress job is to score off the bench and be consistent at it and that is what he does.

The problem is that he consistently scores only 12 ppg in 30 minutes. That is weak.

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Nevermind that he hasn't shown one legit skill!

I can see why you would say he doesn't have one legit skill considering how little you value defense.

The Hawks are 4.8 ppg worse when Childress is playing.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07ATL8D.HTM

That is the worst mark among the regulars other than the rookie Law.

[Plainview1981]

I don't give a damn what 82games.com says. I already told you, SA's opinion of Josh means more to me than some crummy website. Mario West doesn't do squat. There is a reason he probably wouldn't be on an NBA roster if it wasn't for the Hawks. It seems funny that nobody wants to give him the time of day but the people on this board. Gee, I wonder why.

We went through all of this crap with Ira Newble a few years ago and not he is on his way to becoming a "throw in" when it comes to trades. Some of you guys never learn.

Looking on that site:

Leandro Barbosa is a -10PPG when he is on the court. I guess they should just trade him also. Right?

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708PHO.HTM