Painful Recurrence of 2nd Foul Syndrome

[AHF]

This has probably already been discussed ad nauseum but has anyone come up with an explanation of why Josh Smith didn't play in the second quarter of the year's most critical game for the Hawks? I was banging my head against the wall watching KG play with 2 fouls while Josh Smith sat for the Hawks to the point that he didn't even play for half the game. If we are going to have a chance in this series, we need to take chances and getting the most out of Smith and Horford is our best chance to be competitive. Isn't sitting Josh for more than half the game making the worst possible outcome (Smith misses key time because he fouls out prematurely) a guarantee?

Josh played less than half the game but there is an upside Hawks fans, he only had 4 fouls which means none of them will carry over to the next game. I mention that because worrying about fouls carrying over to the next game is the only explanation I can come up with for sitting him for so long when he is easily in our top 3 of guys who can influence the outcome of the game. IMO, you simply don't have the luxury of sitting him if he isn't hot that night because to win you absolutely need him to play well to win and you just have to hope he catches fire or makes some key defensive plays that turn the game.

On a lesser note, for the final play of the first half, has anyone figured out why in the world Super Mario was in the game when we were inbounding the ball? To the suprise of no one who actually thought about how the play might develop, he got left open and clanked the jumper.

[exodus]

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This has probably already been discussed ad nauseum but has anyone come up with an explanation of why Josh Smith didn't play in the second quarter of the year's most critical game for the Hawks?

Woody is a moron. No other explanation needed.

[jhay610]

Yeah I already started a thread about this very subject that didn't get much response. I wonder if Woody thought he was outsmarting Doc over there by saving Josh and waiting on KG to get that dreaded 3rd foul, which KG did. That 3rd foul had a huge impact on the game, too, because KG was worried that he might pick up back-to-back-to-back fouls in the 2nd half as he was roasting us. He finished with those same 3 fouls.

Lol at fouls carrying over. I already said if I was an opposing coach I would pound it right at Horf right off the jump and see if you can pick up a couple cheapies on him, and then rape Zaza until the 4th qtr, which is when Woody usually remembers he has a ROY on his bench.

And yes, I noticed West in, and yes, I laughed when I saw him get the wide-ass open jumper. Then there is Chillz trying to guard one of the top 3 quickest/fastest PGs in the league. Our coach does not put us in position to be successful.

[DChawk]

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And yes, I noticed West in, and yes, I laughed when I saw him get the wide-ass open jumper. Then there is Chillz trying to guard one of the top 3 quickest/fastest PGs in the league. Our coach does not put us in position to be successful.

i thought the same thing when there was an opportunity to sub West out before the offensive possession. Why on earth would you leave West in?!?! On a side note, Jeremy Richardson continues to bury everything he shoots when he comes in the game...

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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This has probably already been discussed ad nauseum but has anyone come up with an explanation of why Josh Smith didn't play in the second quarter of the year's most critical game for the Hawks? I was banging my head against the wall watching KG play with 2 fouls while Josh Smith sat for the Hawks to the point that he didn't even play for half the game. If we are going to have a chance in this series, we need to take chances and getting the most out of Smith and Horford is our best chance to be competitive. Isn't sitting Josh for more than half the game making the worst possible outcome (Smith misses key time because he fouls out prematurely) a guarantee? :doh

I agree that you can't sit him out that long. If anything, bring him in for a 2 - 3 minute stretch, then take him back out, if he's that worried about Smith picking up that 3rd foul. But on the flip side, Rivers put Garnett back in the game in the 2nd quarter, when he picked up 2 early fouls in the first. Garnett was able to play 6 minutes in which the Celtics went on a 13 - 4 run. Then he picks up that 3rd foul with 4 minutes to go in the 2nd quarter, and sits out the rest of the half.

Smoove gets so out of control sometimes though. That 2nd foul he picked up was an offensive foul in which he tried to go coast to coast. It worked once in that game. But when he tried to do it later on, Posey just stood in the lane waiting for him, and Josh plowed right into him. Woody may have to change his mindset about the whole "2 fouls and you sit rule". This is the playoffs. Might as well go out with all of your bullets blazing. The Celtics have proven all year that once they get up on you, it's very difficult to get back into the game.

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Josh played less than half the game but there is an upside Hawks fans, he only had 4 fouls which means none of them will carry over to the next game. I mention that because worrying about fouls carrying over to the next game is the only explanation I can come up with for sitting him for so long when he is easily in our top 3 of guys who can influence the outcome of the game. IMO, you simply don't have the luxury of sitting him if he isn't hot that night because to win you absolutely need him to play well to win and you just have to hope he catches fire or makes some key defensive plays that turn the game.

We need his defense and his rebounding. We can win a game without his offense, but we can't win without his defense. At any rate, he should've played more than 24 minutes last night.

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On a lesser note, for the final play of the first half, has anyone figured out why in the world Super Mario was in the game when we were inbounding the ball? To the suprise of no one who actually thought about how the play might develop, he got left open and clanked the jumper.

Well . . . people have been clamoring for Mario to play, so I guess his "fans" are happy he was in there to miss that jumper. Mario was in the game for defensive purposes, to prevent Horford from picking up a cheap foul at the end. When the Celtics turned it over, Woody just left him in. No excuse for Mario to miss a wide open 15 footer though. That's one of the easiest shots in the NBA to make.

Bottom line is that Woody coaches scared sometimes. And because he doesn't trust his bench, he coaches even more scared in some stretches.

[exodus]

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When the Celtics turned it over, Woody just left him in. No excuse for

Woody to leave him in

.

corrected

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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When the Celtics turned it over, Woody just left him in. No excuse for

Woody to leave him in

.

corrected

Why are you always correcting stupid ish? If Mario can't hit a damn wide open 15 foot jumper, why is he even in the NBA? Whether Woody should have left him in or not, you're trying to tell me that Mario can't hit a wide open 15 foot shot? And it's no excuse for Woody to leave him in? LOL @ that ish.

Might as well cut Mario, if he can't make that shot.

[jhay610]

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Smoove gets so out of control sometimes though. That 2nd foul he picked up was an offensive foul in which he tried to go coast to coast. It worked once in that game. But when he tried to do it later on, Posey just stood in the lane waiting for him, and Josh plowed right into him.

We all know Josh has his ill-advised ways, but on that particular play Posey was definitely moving to his left. Josh tried to jump around him but Posey kind of leaned and shuffled that way with him; Fratello said as much in his commentary.

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Woody may have to change his mindset about the whole "2 fouls and you sit rule".

The day Woodson changes anything about his approach is the day you can go ice skating on hell's lake of fire. He should have changed his "mindset" regarding this months ago.

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he is easily in our top 3 of guys who can influence the outcome of the game. IMO, you simply don't have the luxury of sitting him if he isn't hot that night because to win you absolutely need him to play well

Yep. He is one of the potential game-changers we have. And he was a presence on defense blocking shots b4 he left.

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Well . . . people have been clamoring for Mario to play, so I guess his "fans" are happy he was in there to miss that jumper.

There was a deadball. Anybody with half a brain puts a shooter in. It's obvious that points will be at a premium so you have to put yourself in position to take advantage of every opportunity.

[exodus]

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When the Celtics turned it over, Woody just left him in. No excuse for

Woody to leave him in

.

corrected

Why are you always correcting stupid ish? If Mario can't hit a damn wide open 15 foot jumper, why is he even in the NBA? Whether Woody should have left him in or not, you're trying to tell me that Mario can't hit a wide open 15 foot shot? And it's no excuse for Woody to leave him in? LOL @ that ish.

Might as well cut Mario, if he can't make that shot.

Stupid post.

Might as well cut JJ, Smith and Marvin the next time they miss a 15 footer.

mario is in the game for defense. There was a dead ball so he should have been pulled. Period.

It is a joke that you are on his case about missing a 15 footer after sitting on the bench all game.

[Johnnybravo4]

I listened to Woody's press conf on NBA TV and he acknowledged that it was a mistake and that he guessed that he should play players with fouls. DUH.

[Admin]

If D'Antoni had used the 2 foul rule the Suns probably would have won their game against the Spurs because Shaq wouldn't have had that extra foul which forced him to play soft in the overtimes.

KG was left in with 2 fouls and picked up his 3rd foul in the 1st half and had to sit for a while.

We were down 27-21 when Smith went out of the game with :50 seconds left in the 1st quarter and he didn't play for the remainder of the 1st half and we were down 49-40 so we were -3 with Smith on the bench. I think he played 11 minutes in the 1st quarter so maybe he was exhausted, or maybe Woody forgot about him, but either way the score was about the same with or without him in the 1st half. Unless he just couldn't go back in the game in the 2nd quarter due to being exhausted there is no excuse for him not playing at least a few minutes in that quarter.

[Brotha2ThaNite]

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When the Celtics turned it over, Woody just left him in. No excuse for

Woody to leave him in

.

corrected

Why are you always correcting stupid ish? If Mario can't hit a damn wide open 15 foot jumper, why is he even in the NBA? Whether Woody should have left him in or not, you're trying to tell me that Mario can't hit a wide open 15 foot shot? And it's no excuse for Woody to leave him in? LOL @ that ish.

Might as well cut Mario, if he can't make that shot.

Please tell you are joking or just a young kid.

Every NBA PLAYER can never miss an open 15 foot jump??? The guy just came off the bench! Not to mention that he only average about 3mins a game. LOL

[exodus]

The hawks haven't played in several days so i doubt Smith was exhausted. he rarely seems to get tired anyway.

Woody is just a clueless buffoon. his 2 foul rule is just another example of it.

[Admin]

Smith apparently said that he was too amped up for the game. Without having played in a few days and with the way he was playing with all of that energy it's possible that he was exhausted, but more than likely Woody just forgot about him.

I have no problem with the 2 foul rule and MANY coaches use that rule, but I do have a problem with Woody seemingly forgetting players on the bench and I also blame our sad bunch of assistants for not bringing it to his attention when he does forget them.

[exodus]

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I have no problem with the 2 foul rule and MANY coaches use that rule

Name one

[Kimsey]

Mario did miss a wide open 15 footer yes but let's go in deeper into the scenario.

3 some odd seconds left, ball inbound from under Celts basket if I'm not mistaken, I believe it was Joe's shot but he was doubled and found the open man, Mario obviously cold coming off the bench and shoots his first shot with 0.1 seconds left on the clock. HELLO!!

[Admin]

How about 4? Jeff Van Gundy, Hubie Brown, Mike Fratello, Jerry Sloan. Most of the coaches I have heard mentioning this say that it's about knowing your individual players and I would say that Woody knows Josh Smith tends to pick up fouls in pairs too often (like he did in the 4th quarter) and knows he can't leave him out there like that.

[exodus]

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How about 4? Jeff Van Gundy, Hubie Brown, Mike Fratello, Jerry Sloan. Most of the coaches I have heard mentioning this say that it's about knowing your individual players and I would say that Woody knows Josh Smith tends to pick up fouls in pairs too often (like he did in the 4th quarter) and knows he can't leave him out there like that.

That is news to me. I have never seen anyone do it, especially with a team as thin as ours.

And as far as woody goes it isn't like he adjusts to individual players. He does the same thing whether or not it is Smith, Horford or Bibby.

The fact that we have such a thin bench makes it even more obvious that we need to have our best players on the floor as much as possible.

[AHF]

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Mario did miss a wide open 15 footer yes but let's go in deeper into the scenario.

3 some odd seconds left, ball inbound from under Celts basket if I'm not mistaken, I believe it was Joe's shot but he was doubled and found the open man, Mario obviously cold coming off the bench and

shoots his first shot with 0.1 seconds left on the clock. HELLO!!

To me it is less significant that Mario just came off the bench and more significant that Mario wasn't a competent offensive player at Georgia Tech, let alone in the NBA. The guy is the defensive equivalent of a 3pt specialist - he can play D but has obvious limitations on offense so that he is perfect to play D on an "end the quarter" type of play where the Hawks are unlikely to get another offensive possession. Woodson is obviously aware of this which is why West typically plays in these situations. Putting him on the floor in the reverse situation, when we have the ball to end the half, is an obvious mistake.

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With respect to Josh Smith, there is no way he was too tired to play after sitting on the bench for 10 minutes (which would be significantly less in terms of game time). I don't believe that for a second. Woodson either forgot about Josh [again] (in which case he should be fired immediately for gross incompetence) or he made the conscious decision not to play him - which is MUCH more likely, imo. This has been a pattern with Woodson and whichever poster described it as coaching scared hit the nail on the head. Woodson is very predictable in making the move to sit his forwards for long periods of time when they pick up a few fouls (2 in the first half; 3-4 in the third quarter). I just strongly disagree with that approach in the context of this team and especially when playing a superior opponent.

By trying to avoid watching his star forward foul out, Woodson failed to take advantage of the Hawks best chance to get back in the game. While the net may have been only -3 with Smoove off the floor, the Hawks clearly were more comfortable in the second quarter and I don't see why they could not have done much better than -3 with Josh Smith in the game rather than Zaza, Marvin, etc. The day Woodson lets Horford, Smith, etc. foul out rather than hide them on the bench will be a good day for me.

[jhay610]

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KG was left in with 2 fouls and picked up his 3rd foul in the 1st half and had to sit for a while.

But not b4 the Celts had wrested momentum back away from us. KG led the team on a run to push us back to arm's length b4 leaving.

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We were down 27-21 when Smith went out of the game with :50 seconds left in the 1st quarter and he didn't play for the remainder of the 1st half and we were down 49-40 so we were -3 with Smith on the bench.

And he obviously was out of rhythm when he came back. The point is that Smooth is one of the guys that can impact the game for us, a game-changer, so he needs to be out there. Regardless of how the team plays in short, over a long enough period of time the team will suffer with him on the bench.