Robert Horry = Hall of Famer?

[Diesel]

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He was always an asset for a winning team but never good enough to be HOF worthy, IMO.

I think the question that needs to be asked is without Horry would those teams have won??

Kobe hasn't won since Horry left.

That's a little disingenuous, no? I seem to remember another prominent member of those Lakers squads who was traded...

you mean Derrick Fisher?

Shaq and Kobe did go back to the finals against the Pistons. BUt they lost!

[Diesel]

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You can enjoy your hall of pretty good with rings.

I'll take my hall of elite players.

You are asking my opinion whether Horry should be in the HOF. The answer is clearly "no" when the guy wasn't even close to an All-Star at any point in his career.

Just because past committees have taken guys like Petrovich does not convince me in the slightest.

If the Hall had taken Tyrone Corbin would you be arguing that every player at his level or higher should be in the HOF? I hope not.

Your clear answer totally ignores the qualifications for being in the Hall. You've just made up your own qualifications and applied them to eligibility. It's not" the Hall of Who AHF feels is really worthy." In fact, you have to make several qualifications as you talk about eligibility... Such as..

Well, those international players, I would disqualify.

I take it that you would disqualify some of the women who only played college ball.

I take it that you would disqualify some of the guys who never played in the NBA/ABA NBA.

I take it that you would disqualify some of the guys who played for the Celtics and the Knicks and were allowed in because their friends were part of the committees.

I take it that you would disqualify those guys who won medals and international championships.

I'm sure you would disqualify those who were let in on Sympathy like Drazen Petrovich.

Then when you have finished all your disqualifications, you'd have something similar to NBA's greatest 50...

But that's not the basketball hall of fame.

Robert Horry has held up the most prestigious trophy in the NBA 7 times and those 7 times he held it up with different players. He's call Big Shot Bob because he's an important contributor to each championship.

Also consider that Pat Ewing, Dominque Wilkins, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Karl Malone, and others have worked their whole career trying to win just one of those championships and Big Shot Bob has won it 7 times!!

Before you make all those disqualifications, you need to look at the Hall of Fame as what it is not what you want it to be.

[AHF]

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You can enjoy your hall of pretty good with rings.

I'll take my hall of elite players.

You are asking my opinion whether Horry should be in the HOF. The answer is clearly "no" when the guy wasn't even close to an All-Star at any point in his career.

Just because past committees have taken guys like Petrovich does not convince me in the slightest.

If the Hall had taken Tyrone Corbin would you be arguing that every player at his level or higher should be in the HOF? I hope not.

Your clear answer totally ignores the qualifications for being in the Hall. You've just made up your own qualifications and applied them to eligibility. It's not" the Hall of Who AHF feels is really worthy."

....

Robert Horry has held up the most prestigious trophy in the NBA 7 times and those 7 times he held it up with different players. He's call Big Shot Bob because he's an important contributor to each championship.

Also consider that Pat Ewing, Dominque Wilkins, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Karl Malone, and others have worked their whole career trying to win just one of those championships and Big Shot Bob has won it 7 times!!

Before you make all those disqualifications, you need to look at the Hall of Fame as what it is not what you want it to be.

LOL

Who is doing what here?

Robert Horry will not actually be in the hall of fame. He doesn't have a prayer at it.

Looking at what the HOF actually is, it is a place that will not include Robert Horry.

The only way you think Horry is going to be in the HOF is by considering what you would like it to be rather than what it is.

The HOF applies too high a standard to American NBA players and too low a standard to everyone else, IMO. That is my opinion about what it should be.

As for what it is, it is a place where Horry won't be considered.

Regarding your specific reading of my opinion:

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In fact, you have to make several qualifications as you talk about eligibility... Such as..

Well, those international players, I would disqualify.

I wouldn't disqualify someone because they are international. They just need to be good enough and have real credentials to be HOF worthy. Petrovich doesn't make it. Arvidas Sabonis probably does.

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I take it that you would disqualify some of the women who only played college ball.

If I were in charge, I would create a separate HOF for college basketball and the NBA. However, even under the current structure I would definitely still bring someone into the HOF like Cheryl Miller who never did anything of lasting significance on the court after leaving USC.

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I take it that you would disqualify some of the guys who never played in the NBA/ABA NBA.

Same deal here.

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I take it that you would disqualify some of the guys who played for the Celtics and the Knicks and were allowed in because their friends were part of the committees.

I would judge them on their merits, not their friends.

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I take it that you would disqualify those guys who won medals and international championships.

Not in the slightest. Winning medals and international championships is a minor feather in your cap. It only helps you get into the HOF if I am in charge. It certainly, however, is not enough by itself to make you HOF-worthy.

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I'm sure you would disqualify those who were let in on Sympathy like Drazen Petrovich.

If by that you mean guys who don't qualify on their merits but who you feel sorry for, then yes.

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Then when you have finished all your disqualifications, you'd have something similar to NBA's greatest 50...

I would go well beyond the Greatest 50 but wouldn't lower the bar so far as to let in people who couldn't even come close to matching Jamaal Magloire for All-Star appearances.

[Diesel]

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Looking at what the HOF actually is

, it is a place that will not include Robert Horry.

The only way you think Horry is going to be in the HOF is by considering what you would like it to be rather than what it is.

Have you really looked at what the Hall of fame is??

I think the one who wants to change the Hall is you.

I don't have a problem with the Hall enshrining women who never played pro ball.. Do you?

I don't have a problem with the Hall enshrining the INTNL players that are there... Do you?

I don't have a problem with the Hall enshrining players for political reasons... Do you?

Be Honest AHF.

You can't tell me that you would disqualify all the International players who are there because they had a "lower" bar to get in and then say that you're not trying to change what the Hall of fame means.

Nowhere in the requirements for being in the hall does it say "Elite player in the NBA". You superimposed that unto the meaning based on other halls of fame. However, what is shown by precept and example is that they choose players who have contributed to the sport. Like it or not, 7 championships with 3 different teams is a contribution to the sport. It's a distinction that no other player who has played the game has.. and more than likely it will never be eclipsed.

[AHF]

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Looking at what the HOF actually is

, it is a place that will not include Robert Horry.

The only way you think Horry is going to be in the HOF is by considering what you would like it to be rather than what it is.

Have you really looked at what the Hall of fame is??

I think the one who wants to change the Hall is you.

I would love to change the HOF but the reality is that Horry doesn't get serious consideration by the current hall. With respect to Horry you are being willfully blind if you really think he is going to make the HOF, IMO.

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I don't have a problem with the Hall enshrining women who never played pro ball.. Do you?

Didn't I already answer that? The answer is that I am fine with that for college legends even if they never play professionally but I think the process would be better served if there was a college hall of fame so the decisions were made separately.

When Nique was passed over for the HOF (along with Joe Dumars) there were multiple college coaches inducted, Hortencia Marcari was inducted, etc. Those people don't deserve it over Nique. The guy was a top 10 scorer at the highest level of the game and he can't get in so these people can?

When Nique was passed over in 2005, that made it 16 college coaches vs. 9 NBA players inducted over the previous 9 years.

You are darn right that I think that is a system that needs changing.

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I don't have a problem with the Hall enshrining the INTNL players that are there... Do you?

I answered this above but international players are fine as long as they are there on their merits and not as part of an affirmative action effort to reach out to the world.

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I don't have a problem with the Hall enshrining players for political reasons... Do you?

I do. I think they should get in on their merits not how many #$*# they have kissed.

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Be Honest AHF.

You can't tell me that you would disqualify all the International players who are there because they had a "lower" bar to get in and then say that you're not trying to change what the Hall of fame means.

I would love to change the HOF. I am not disqualifying all International players either. I am saying the bar they should have to cross should not be lowered because they were the first Polish guy to shoot a three pointer while eating kielbasa.

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Nowhere in the requirements for being in the hall does it say "Elite player in the NBA". You superimposed that unto the meaning based on other halls of fame. However, what is shown by precept and example is that they choose players who have contributed to the sport. Like it or not, 7 championships with 3 different teams is a contribution to the sport. It's a distinction that no other player who has played the game has.. and more than likely it will never be eclipsed.

The Hall of Fame should be reserved for the legends of the game of basketball - at the college level, at the NBA level, at the international level, etc.

It should not be the Hall of Pretty Good.

[Diesel]

Shooting 0.500 in the Finals from the 3 point line, making more game winning shots than Jordan did and making more clutch shots than almost anyone else, hitting 8 threes in a row without missing, shooting 5 threes and having 8 steals in a quarter, never missed a post-season, right now having a 0.500 record on getting rings (7 in 14 years).

Bigger impact current hall of famer John Beckman or Robert Horry?

Bigger impact current hall of famer William Bradley or Robert Horry?

Bigger impact current hall of famer Joseph Brennan or Robert Horry?

Bigger impact current hall of famer Bob Davies or Robert Horry?

Bigger impact current hall of famer Chuck Hyatt or Robert Horry?

[AHF]

Play fair now. You can't give your pitch for Horry and then just list names:

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Shooting 0.500 in the Finals from the 3 point line, making more game winning shots than Jordan did and making more clutch shots than almost anyone else, hitting 8 threes in a row without missing, shooting 5 threes and having 8 steals in a quarter, never missed a post-season, right now having a 0.500 record on getting rings (7 in 14 years).

Bigger impact current hall of famer John Beckman or Robert Horry?

An early pioneer of the game, Beckman was known as the "Babe Ruth of Basketball" and according to the HOF he was the "biggest figure in basketball" for a 20 year period. He won championships with 4 different teams.

That has to be Beckman in terms of biggest impact. Horry has never been the biggest figure on his team let alone for the entire sport.

Bigger impact current hall of famer William Bradley or Robert Horry?

This is the closest call because Bradley does not deserve to be in the HOF based on his NBA days. His college career is more compelling for HOF consideration.

Horry

Pro:

0 All-Star Games

0 All-NBA Teams

Career 7.0 PPG, 4.8 RPG, 2.1 APG

College:

1 time All-SEC First Team

Bradley

Pro:

1 All-Star Game

0 All-NBA Teams

Career 12.4 PPG, 3.2 RPG, 3.4 APG

College:

Player of the Year

3-Time All-American

Bigger impact current hall of famer Joseph Brennan or Robert Horry?

Another early pioneer with a greater impact than Horry:

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During his era, any time All-Time teams were discussed, "Poison" Joe Brennan's name was mentioned with the best in the game.

Won 4 championships and 2 scoring titles.

Horry doesn't merit consideration in an All-Decade team, let along All-Time team.

Bigger impact current hall of famer Bob Davies or Robert Horry?

This one is a no-brainer for Davies:

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Honored as the Sixth Greatest Player in the First Half Century by Sport magazine in 1970

named to the NBA's 25th Anniversary Team, Davies is considered one of the finest guards in basketball history.

Won one championship before joining NBA and another in the NBA.

All-NBA First Team, 1950, 1951, 1952

NBA All-Star Game, 1951-54

That is a no-brainer.

Bigger impact current hall of famer Chuck Hyatt or Robert Horry?

Hyatt is in there as a legend of the college game.

He was a Player of the Year; two-time All-American; and won 2 championships in 3 years of college play.

He was a legend in the college game for his time and had a much bigger impact on the college game than Horry in the NBA.

I think this is an apples to oranges comparison and if I were in charge of the HOF then you would not evaluate college players against NBA players. If I have to choose between college and NBA players, however, I break the tie with the NBA guy for sure but Horry's impact on the NBA is not close to measuring up to Hyatt's impact in college during his time.

[dlpin]

the thing is, all those players and coaches that are there based on something OTHER than on court skill had something else going for them. Drazen Petrovich, for example: never mind that he was an all star and that he had won pretty much everything in Europe and for his country. Simply being "THE GUY" who made the NBA popular in eastern europe, opening the doors for dozens of players to come over, making basketball huge in the former yugoslavia and marking the start of the international wave of players into the NBA make him much more deserving of the hall of fame than Horry.

The point being, if you are not a perenial all star, you better have done something significant for the game of basketball outside the lines.

Horry is not a perennial all start and did not do anything significant outside the lines.

He hit clutch shots, but so did Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr and Don Nelson.

Heck, Cedric Maxwell was more "clutch" than Horry, and no one ever mentions him as worthy (did it for fewer championships, but he was clutch for entire games or series at a time, like 81 or 84).

Horry is clutch, valuable, etc. But That is too little on court, and off court he never did anything of distinction, so this is a definitive NO. Besides, right now he will be remembered as much for those shots as for "hack a shaq," "hack a nash" and "hack a west."

[FrankWhite]

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He was always an asset for a winning team but never good enough to be HOF worthy, IMO.

I think the question that needs to be asked is without Horry would those teams have won??

Kobe hasn't won since Horry left.

That's a little disingenuous, no? I seem to remember another prominent member of those Lakers squads who was traded...

you mean Derrick Fisher?

Shaq and Kobe did go back to the finals against the Pistons. BUt they lost!

Fair enough, but they did beat the Spurs WITH Robert Horry on their way to the Finals.

[Diesel]

#25,000.

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The point being, if you are not a perenial all star, you better have done something significant for the game of basketball outside the lines.

Horry is not a perennial all start and did not do anything significant outside the lines.

You don't think 7 NBA Championships with 3 teams is significant?

Never missed a post season.

He's .500 for championships in 14 years.

Now if you really don't think 7 NBA Championships with 3 teams is significant. Find me any pro... any you like... and tell me the likelihood that they would win 7 championships with 3 different teams.

The great on JORDAN could not win 7 championships with 3 teams. He could not win 7 championships on 2 different teams.

When you look at Horry... He has to go down in History as the MOST CLUTCH PLAYER TO PLAY BASKETBALL.

Is that significant?

I'm talking about the guy who hit the most playoff/Championship game winners.

[dlpin]

First of all, the "significant" part was referring to outside the lines. What has he done there?

In any case, "being" on the team is not really a significant feat.

And I would love to see confirmation that he hit "the most" game winners. His wiki lists 8 game winning shots in the playoffs. Impressive, but 8 game winners in a career as a back up is really very little. So to recap: nothing outside the lines, very little inside of it.

[Diesel]

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Impressive, but 8 game winners in a career as a back up is really very little.

I have to disagree with you here. 8 playoff game winners is a lot in comparison to most players. To be in that situation 8 times is hard and then to be called on 8 times is even harder.

For instance. I can remember Jordan winning 2 playoff games on the last shot... Cleveland and Utah. I hope that there's more but I only remember 2. However, 8?

Also..

Horry collected his seventh championship as a member of the Spurs in 2007. He is one of only nine players to have won seven or more championships in the NBA, and the only one who did not play on the 1960s Celtics. Robert Horry is one of only three players to win multiple NBA Championships with two different teams in consecutive seasons. In 2005, he joined John Salley as the only players to win NBA rings with three different teams. He is the all-time leader in playoff games played, having surpassed Kareem Abdul-Jabbar during the 2008 playoffs.

Horry is second on the all-time list of three-pointers made in the playoffs, behind only Reggie Miller. He also holds the record for three-pointers all-time in the NBA Finals with 53, having eclipsed Michael Jordan's previous record of 42. He holds the NBA Playoffs record for most three-point field goals made in a game without a miss (7), against the Utah Jazz in Game 2 of the 1997 Western Conference Semifinals.

[AHF]

Those numbers all sound amazing until you remember:

Robert Horry

Career Playoff Average

8.1 PPG

5.6 RPG

By way of contrast:

Drew Gooden

Career Playoff Average

10.8 PPG

8.2 RPG

[Diesel]

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Those numbers all sound amazing until you remember:

Robert Horry

Career Playoff Average

8.1 PPG

5.6 RPG

By way of contrast:

Drew Gooden

Career Playoff Average

10.8 PPG

8.2 RPG

Yeah, but if you're in the playoffs, who do you want on your team??

There's no doubt that Horry is a role player. But as that, he's the best at that role in Probably the History of Basketball. That's what's significant.

Morevoer, about Drew Gooden.

TMac Playoff Averages:

7 appearances: 28.5 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 6.2 apg.

by way of contrast:

Kobe Bryant Playoffs Averages:

11 appearances: 24.0 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg.

I guess by your suggestion, Tmac is better to have on your team than Kobe?

[AHF]

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Those numbers all sound amazing until you remember:

Robert Horry

Career Playoff Average

8.1 PPG

5.6 RPG

By way of contrast:

Drew Gooden

Career Playoff Average

10.8 PPG

8.2 RPG

Yeah, but if you're in the playoffs, who do you want on your team??

There's no doubt that Horry is a role player. But as that, he's the best at that role in Probably the History of Basketball. That's what's significant.

Morevoer, about Drew Gooden.

TMac Playoff Averages:

7 appearances: 28.5 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 6.2 apg.

by way of contrast:

Kobe Bryant Playoffs Averages:

11 appearances: 24.0 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 4.6 apg.

I guess by your suggestion, Tmac is better to have on your team than Kobe?

No. My suggestion is that Drew Gooden is not a key player by any stretch of the imagination and his numbers are better than Horry's which puts his significance into some perspective in terms of the hall of fame. I agree Horry is the guy you want as between the two.

T-Mac is a 7 time All-Star; 7 time All-NBA and has finished in the top 10 for MVP voting 6 times.

You can compare his stats to Kobe as you compare two true stars.

You compare Horry as you compare, as you correctly note, a role player.

Role players don't get in the basketball HOF, IMO.

Are you aware of a single guy in the basketball HOF who is there because of his NBA credentials who was a role player?