Horford and Smoove

[exodus]

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In fact I just watched the Boston-Atlanta games the past couple of days and

saw several times where Al knocked down the outside jumper

Which is exactly why HE SHOULDN'T BE STANDING AROUND WITH THE BALL 18 FEET FROM THE RIM WITH HIS MAN 5 FEET OFF HIM.

The whole point of running an offense is to get open shots. The team only has 24 seconds to shoot so when Horford consistently passes up opportunities to score he is hurting the team.

[crimedog]

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His production can't be ignored either. He averaged 17/8 while being the only guy in the league in the top 10 in blocks and steals.

People excuse Horford's lack of offense since he is a rookie but he is the same age as Smith and obviously had the benefit of college instruction.

Okafor averaged 15/11 in his rookie year. Howard averaged 12/10 straight out of high school.

Looking at guys Horford was compared to last summer Amare averaged 13.5/9 straight out of HS. Zo averaged 20/10 with 3 blocks in his rookie year.

It isnt like Horford put up huge numbers.

You will NEVER see me compare Horford to Amare, Zo nor Howard. NEVER, I don't think he is that type of player. Okafor (without the blocks), yes. But for me, it's not about the stats only, it's about the intangibles that help transform a losing team into a playoff team. And Horford has it and Smith doesn't. There have been a handful (if that many) ulrta-athletes like Smith who have played an integral role for an NBA champion. Guys like Smith, the Matrix and AK-47 are great fantasy players and are great stat-stuffers. But their individual success has not translated well in the post-season. And if you're building a team, don't you have to build around players who can get you the golden basketball? Give me Caron Butler in his prime over T-Mac in his prime everyday of the week and I'll more than likely will be still balling in June when T-Mac is enjoying the Jamaican beach.

Horford came to a team that had won just 30 games with Joe missing 25 games, Smith missing 10, Marv missing 20, Chil missing 30, point duties split between the worst player in the league statistically (Speedy) and Ty Lue, starting center duties split between Lo/Shel/Zaza...

He came and, yes, we made the playoffs but we saw a 7 game improvement total. We aren't talking about David Robinson or Chris Paul coming and transforming the team into a contender here.

Caron Butler has made it past the first round exactly once, as a bench player, he plays in the east and isn't the best player on his own team... awesome example about how you are gonna spend your Junes!!!

There are tons of ultra-athletic guys who have played integral roles on championship teams. The thing that those championship teams all have, for the most part at least, is superstars who are in the top 10-15 of all times. I really hate to break this to you but neither Smith, Horford, or Joe are anywhere near Shaq, Tim Duncan, Mike, Hakeem, Larry, or Magic.

Smith is closer to a Ben Wallace/Sheed hybrid type of intimidator than anyone else. He could be like Rodman... He's multi-talented like Garnett (not as good, but hey, people said you couldn't build a championship team around KG before this season).

[EazyRoc]

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In fact I just watched the Boston-Atlanta games the past couple of days and

saw several times where Al knocked down the outside jumper

Which is exactly why HE SHOULDN'T BE STANDING AROUND WITH THE BALL 18 FEET FROM THE RIM WITH HIS MAN 5 FEET OFF HIM.

The whole point of running an offense is to get open shots. The team only has 24 seconds to shoot so when Horford consistently passes up opportunities to score he is hurting the team.

Could you imagine how crazy the Squawk would have been if Horford started doing what Josh Smith did and hoist up jump shots just because he was open ?

[EazyRoc]

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very raw

If you've been in the league 4 years and are still considered "raw" it's either because you're athletic but have no basketball skills or have both but are not very smart.

Everyone talks about how great Josh is going to be, but his head might get in the way.

That's why I try to point out (often) that Smith has played over 300 NBA games and like 10,000 minutes. That's not small sample nor can it be ignored because of his age.

His production can't be ignored either. He averaged 17/8 while being the only guy in the league in the top 10 in blocks and steals.

People excuse Horford's lack of offense since he is a rookie but he is the same age as Smith and obviously had the benefit of college instruction.

Okafor averaged 15/11 in his rookie year. Howard averaged 12/10 straight out of high school.

Looking at guys Horford was compared to last summer Amare averaged 13.5/9 straight out of HS. Zo averaged 20/10 with 3 blocks in his rookie year.

It isnt like Horford put up huge numbers.

Howard, Mourning, and Stoudemire are all future Hall of Famers.

When Okafor came into the league, he was the focus of his team's offense.

Those are very bad comparisons.

[exodus]

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Could you imagine how crazy the Squawk would have been if Horford started doing what Josh Smith did and hoist up jump shots just because he was open ?

Horford isn't setting up at the 3 pt line like Smith. He also shoots his jumpers far better than Smith. There is no reason for him to consistently pass up those shots when a man is several feet off him.

He needs to shoot those shots because he can actually make them. That would force the opposing center to come out and guard him and then Horford could easily drive by him. Plus getting the opposing center out of the lane opens up chances to drive for everyone else.

[exodus]

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very raw

If you've been in the league 4 years and are still considered "raw" it's either because you're athletic but have no basketball skills or have both but are not very smart.

Everyone talks about how great Josh is going to be, but his head might get in the way.

That's why I try to point out (often) that Smith has played over 300 NBA games and like 10,000 minutes. That's not small sample nor can it be ignored because of his age.

His production can't be ignored either. He averaged 17/8 while being the only guy in the league in the top 10 in blocks and steals.

People excuse Horford's lack of offense since he is a rookie but he is the same age as Smith and obviously had the benefit of college instruction.

Okafor averaged 15/11 in his rookie year. Howard averaged 12/10 straight out of high school.

Looking at guys Horford was compared to last summer Amare averaged 13.5/9 straight out of HS. Zo averaged 20/10 with 3 blocks in his rookie year.

It isnt like Horford put up huge numbers.

Howard, Mourning, and Stoudemire are all future Hall of Famers.

When Okafor came into the league, he was the focus of his team's offense.

Those are very bad comparisons.

Which is exactly what i said last summer when the comparisons were brought up.

[EazyRoc]

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Could you imagine how crazy the Squawk would have been if Horford started doing what Josh Smith did and hoist up jump shots just because he was open ?

Horford isn't setting up at the 3 pt line like Smith. He also shoots his jumpers far better than Smith. There is no reason for him to consistently pass up those shots when a man is several feet off him.

He needs to shoot those shots because he can actually make them. That would force the opposing center to come out and guard him and then Horford could easily drive by him. Plus getting the opposing center out of the lane opens up chances to drive for everyone else.

Most of the time he passes up his shot is because he is at or around the 3 pt. line (I never understood why they had him so far away from the hoop, but hey) Whenever Horford got the ball around 17 ft, and he was open, he would shoot it. Horford didn't get enough touches to even be considered timid. His offensive skills are not advanced, but they aren't as bad as you make them seem.

[exodus]

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Most of the time he passes up his shot is because he is at or around the 3 pt. line (I never understood why they had him so far away from the hoop, but hey) Whenever Horford got the ball around 17 ft, and he was open, he would shoot it.

First of all that isn't true. Secondly if Horford does catch the ball out of his shooting range there is no law that says he can't take a dribble or two to get closer. Considering that his man is the opposing center playing several feet off him that shouldn't be hard to do.

He got plenty of touches but too often he just didn't do anything with theml. He stood around with the ball for several seconds far more often than anyone on the team.

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His offensive skills are not advanced, but they aren't as bad as you make them seem.

I am not saying they are bad. I am saying he is too timid to actually use them.

Then Dolfan comes in and says that he isn't timid which begs the question as to why he never beats guys like Big Z or Bogut off the dribble. Either he is timid or his ball handling skills suck. I say it is because he is timid.

[Zone034life]

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But for me, it's not about the stats only, it's about the intangibles that help transform a losing team into a playoff team. And Horford has it and Smith doesn't.

This has to be the most crazy ish I have heard on this board. Horford wasn't the sole reason this team went to the playoffs he only was the final piece this team needed. He was the toughness beside Smoove that ZaZa, Lo Wright and Shellhead wasn't. Smoove next to JJ is the biggest game changer this team has. I suppose you think MW is a better prospect than Smoove as well.

I can't say I am surprised to see Dolfan ignore this crazy arse statement and point out how ex commited on Horford being timid. There were many times this season Horford looked lost with the ball only to put up a shot. That is just a part of his game that needs improvement.

Dolfan you wanted to know a closet hater of Smooves I nominate Anakin Joe!

[Admin]

You keep using these absolute terms like "never" and they are making you look like you either have no idea what you are talking about or you have an agenda. I know you aren't stupid so I tend to think you have agenda.

[exodus]

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You keep using these absolute terms like "never" and they are making you look like you either have no idea what you are talking about or you have an agenda. I know you aren't stupid so I tend to think you have agenda.

First of all he never did. It was rare for him to beat anyone off the dribble all season. I remember specifically begging him to do it against Big Z and Bogut but he never did.

Speaking of stupid here are two of your comments after i mentioned Horford standing around with the ball 18 feet from the rim instead of looking to shoot.

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I don't think that's because he is timid.

It's just not his game.

Would you rather him put the ball on the floor and possibly turn it over? I just think that's him knowing the limitations of his game.

Then you turn right around and say.

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In fact I just watched the Boston-Atlanta games the past couple of days and

saw several times where Al knocked down the outside jumper.

So which is it? On the one hand you are saying it isn't his game to score from 18 feet and then you say that he has an outside shot.

Make up your mind.

[Traceman]

up and putting the ball on the floor in traffic and driving to the hoop is NOT a strength of Horford's game? How many PF/C's ARE good at that? There are a FEW (Stoudemire and Bosh come to mind) but there are MANY (Howard, Okafor, Biedrins, Aldridge, Dalembert, Camby, Frye, etc) that aren't.

Horford does a good job handling the ball in transition and he has good fundamentals so HOPEFULLY he can develop that part of his game but it is not a given. He doesn't HAVE to be able to put the ball on the floor and get to the hoop to become a great player. If he can consistently knock down the 15-17 footer while continuing to develop his post game and doing all the other things he does, he can still be great.

[Admin]

Okay so he has "never" done that? So then if I found one single example it would make you look pretty stupid for saying "never", right?

No the 18' jumper is not his game, but I was specifically referring to him taking guys off the dribble not being his game. Just because he has made a few jumpers doesn't mean that's suddenly his game.

[EazyRoc]

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Most of the time he passes up his shot is because he is at or around the 3 pt. line (I never understood why they had him so far away from the hoop, but hey) Whenever Horford got the ball around 17 ft, and he was open, he would shoot it.

First of all that isn't true. Secondly if Horford does catch the ball out of his shooting range there is no law that says he can't take a dribble or two to get closer. Considering that his man is the opposing center playing several feet off him that shouldn't be hard to do.

He got plenty of touches but too often he just didn't do anything with theml. He stood around with the ball for several seconds far more often than anyone on the team.

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His offensive skills are not advanced, but they aren't as bad as you make them seem.

I am not saying they are bad. I am saying he is too timid to actually use them.

Then Dolfan comes in and says that he isn't timid which begs the question as to why he never beats guys like Big Z or Bogut off the dribble. Either he is timid or his ball handling skills suck. I say it is because he is timid.

Yes it is. I've seen a number of plays where Horford will have the ball at the top of the key, he'll looks around and eventually pass it off to Joe, Mike, or Josh Smith (though it's usually Joe or Mike). Whenever he's around 15-17 ft, and he's open, he doesn't hesitate to shoot the ball. He didn't get plenty of touches as you imply. How can he possibly get "plenty" of touches as the 5th or 6th option ?

There were games when he did, and more often than not it resulted in a productive offensive night for him when he did. There is absolutely no timidity with Al Horford, it's just he doesn't have the handles to get through the lane to beat bigger players off the dribble. He's got good handles in the open court, but dribbling through/around traffic is a different story.

[exodus]

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up and putting the ball on the floor in traffic

When nobody is within 5 feet of you there is no traffic.

When you are 18 feet from the basket and your man if 5 feet off you he should be looking to score. Period.

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He doesn't HAVE to be able to put the ball on the floor and get to the hoop to become a great player.

Wrong. At Horford's size he isn't going to be able to back guys down like Duncan (who just so happens to have a good face up game). He is going to have to be able to use his quickness against bigger players.

If Horfords ball handling skills are so weak that he can't beat Big Z off the dribble then there definitely aren't any All-Star games in his future.

[Admin]

I can't believe the lengths that you will go to in order to trash players like Horford and Childress and at the same time go to the ends of the earth to defend Marvin.

[exodus]

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No the 18' jumper is not his game,

but I was specifically referring to him taking guys off the dribble not being his game.

Just because he has made a few jumpers doesn't mean that's suddenly his game.

Here is my comment that you responded to.

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When a guy stands around with the ball 18 feet from the basket looking for someone to pass to while his man is 5 feet off him that is being timid.

Horford does that more than anyone on the team by far.

Too often the opposing defense is playing 5 on 4 because Horford won't do anything with the ball. Post #

328378

I made no mention or shooting jumpers or driving, just him standing around with the ball.

Then you said "it is not his game" and i was like WTF because that comment made no sense but i let it go. But since you brought it up i have to ask what were you talking about? What was not his game? After all i made no mention of shooting jumpers or driving.

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Okay so he has "never" done that?

Again i said that he didn't do it against Big Z or Bogut and rarely did it against anyone else.

How many times do i have to repeat something for you to get it?

[exodus]

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I can't believe the lengths that you will go to in order to trash players like Horford and Childress and at the same time go to the ends of the earth to defend Marvin.

So saying Horford should look to shoot more often is trashing him? OK

If i really didn't like Horford i would want him gone. Good luck finding any post where i mentioned trading Horford.

As far as I am concerned they can just let childress walk.

[Admin]

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First of all he never did

. It was rare for him to beat anyone off the dribble all season. I remember specifically begging him to do it against Big Z and Bogut but he never did.

It sure sounds like to me that you said he NEVER DID.

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Horford has been solid but he hasn't been an impact player on either end. He has no take charge in his game.

He is too timid to take advantage of slower players

. Timidity is not an intangible in my book.

You refer to them as slower players, so you think he should take advantage of his speed advantage by doing what?

[Admin]

Calling him timid is trashing him. Going out of your way to claim that he "never" does certain things when it can be proved that he does do them is trashing him.

If you can't see that then there's no helping you here.