Marvin (again)

[SuperSavvyNation]

Sorry, :beathorse:

I've thought about saying this on different occasions in other threads in regards to Marvin. I have to say that I have little faith that he will ever be anything special. I can sum up Marvin in one game.....last year's Seattle matchup in Seattle.

He was back in his old stomping grounds ,wanting to impress. Marvin took that game over, scoring 33 pts and being the player that we need him to be on a nightly basis.

However, that game was the game that solidified my opinion on Marvin. He could be exceptional if he wanted to. But up to this point, he only chooses to stretch his game to the next level on special occasions. That is the prime example of the lack of heart, motivation, and passion that seems to follow him and is routinely been his chief criticism. The fact that he can take his game to that level when motivated is what lets me know he doesn't want to be a special player based on his consistent mediocrity.

I can throw everything else out the window and just use this one game as the ultimate realization of what Marvin Williams is. A special performace that proves quite the opposite.

[Zone034life]

Sorry, :beathorse:

I've thought about saying this on different occasions in other threads in regards to Marvin. I have to say that I have little faith that he will ever be anything special. I can sum up Marvin in one game.....last year's Seattle matchup in Seattle.

He was back in his old stomping grounds ,wanting to impress. Marvin took that game over, scoring 33 pts and being the player that we need him to be on a nightly basis.

However, that game was the game that solidified my opinion on Marvin. He could be exceptional if he wanted to. But up to this point, he only chooses to stretch his game to the next level on special occasions. That is the prime example of the lack of heart, motivation, and passion that seems to follow him and is routinely been his chief criticism. The fact that he can take his game to that level when motivated is what lets me know he doesn't want to be a special player based on his consistent mediocrity.

I can throw everything else out the window and just use this one game as the ultimate realization of what Marvin Williams is. A special performace that proves quite the opposite.

You don't have to apologize for your opinion. No one apologizes when they rip Smoove or Chillz.

This is what I was trying to say in another thread. Games like this should be for players like Damien Wilkens in Atlanta last season. Not a player who was expected to have numerous games of note.

If Marvin doesn't want to be great then no one can make him want to. You can't see that in the stats sheet.

He gets his average on his natural ability to shoot and get to the line. He had a 30 point game in Seattle because he played with heart, passion and had a will to not be stopped. The players who want to be great play like this consistently.

[HawksFan87]

Sorry, :beathorse:

I've thought about saying this on different occasions in other threads in regards to Marvin. I have to say that I have little faith that he will ever be anything special. I can sum up Marvin in one game.....last year's Seattle matchup in Seattle.

He was back in his old stomping grounds ,wanting to impress. Marvin took that game over, scoring 33 pts and being the player that we need him to be on a nightly basis.

However, that game was the game that solidified my opinion on Marvin. He could be exceptional if he wanted to. But up to this point, he only chooses to stretch his game to the next level on special occasions. That is the prime example of the lack of heart, motivation, and passion that seems to follow him and is routinely been his chief criticism. The fact that he can take his game to that level when motivated is what lets me know he doesn't want to be a special player based on his consistent mediocrity.

I can throw everything else out the window and just use this one game as the ultimate realization of what Marvin Williams is. A special performace that proves quite the opposite.

Sorry but you are not allowed to criticize Marvin, if you do you are a hater...

[EazyRoc]

Sorry but you are not allowed to criticize Marvin, if you do you are a hater...

It's the same with Josh Smith.

Anyways, Marvin had 16 games where he scored 20 or more points. That's not bad as your 3rd or 4th option.

[capstone21]

Honestly I think we should resign Marvin this offseason. We could get him to probably sign for 8 million a year this summer I bet. I have a feeling he is going to have a breakout season and want big bucks next season. Lets get it done now that the Smith contract is about to be resolved.

Edited August 8, 2008 by capstone21

[frosgrim]

I try to stay out of these intermanable Marvin debates, but wth, here is my 2 cents

Marvin is an enigma. Dude has basketball skills, but not enough drive to make him use those skills to his fullest. Is he clumsy at times? Yes, but at the same time he can, at times, put the ball on the floor and drive with power. The guy has a very nice jumper, but he doesn't use it to set up the rest of his game.

I really hope that Woodson decides to try to make Marvin into the #2 scorer at the beginnig of the season. Run plays for Marvin. The guy is so coachable its ridiculous. He will do what he's told, so instead of letting the Marvin ask for the ball, feed Marvin the ball. Build his ego so that he becomes the man.

I am frustrated that Marvin didn't have as big a season as I thought he should have last year. This year, I really hope that he proves all the nay-sayers wrong. Will he do it? I sort of doubt it now, but I hope he proves me and others wrong.

Here is what I want to see this season from MW:

Keep hitting those 15-20' jumpers

Add a 3 point shot, hopefully hitting around 33%

Learn how to drive consistantly

[capstone21]

I think with Chilz gone it is going to make a big difference in Marvin's play.

A lot of times when Marvin was playing well Woody would ALWAYS take him out at the 4 minute mark of the first quarter and not put him back in until the half way point of the second quarter.

I think his pt will be more consistent.

[Traceman]

Honestly I think we should resign Marvin this offseason. We could get him to probably sign for 8 million a year this summer I bet. I have a feeling he is going to have a breakout season and want big bucks next season. Lets get it done now that the Smith contract is about to be resolved.

Makes sense to me. You would think we would have learned something from our dealings with the Joshes. If we could get him signed to an extension in the 5 yr/$42M - $48M range (starting at $7M-$8M a season, I would do it. Anything higher, I would have to wait.

[ATLBob]

I really hope that Woodson decides to try to make Marvin into the #2 scorer at the beginnig of the season. Run plays for Marvin. The guy is so coachable its ridiculous. He will do what he's told, so instead of letting the Marvin ask for the ball, feed Marvin the ball. Build his ego so that he becomes the man.

I love this part of your post, Grim. The whole paragraph.

[ATLBob]

Makes sense to me. You would think we would have learned something from our dealings with the Joshes. If we could get him signed to an extension in the 5 yr/$42M - $48M range (starting at $7M-$8M a season, I would do it. Anything higher, I would have to wait.

Realistically, eight per prolly won't cut it, not in this market. Inflate the numbers slightly and I agree wholeheartedly (I agree with them where you have em too, but just don't think it'll get anything done).

[Zone034life]

I love this part of your post, Grim. The whole paragraph.

I know we have a difference of opinion about Marvin but i have a couple of questions for his fans:

What if MW doesn't want to be the second scorer?

What if he can't get his shot off against tougher defense that a number two scorer has to face?

How do you know Marvin isn't fine with being a role player?

Do you believe that a player being nice off the court and being coachable equates to him being a beast on the floor? Dwight Howard is.

My point is its easy to look at the stats sheet and say, all he needs is more attempts or the absence of chillz will help his game but that may not be the case. Every player in the league doesn't want to be in the spotlight and have pressure on them. Marvin may be one of those players.

I have settled on the fact that Marvin is role player. If he proves me wrong then better for all Hawks fans. I'm from Missouri right now though.

[Joker]

Sorry, :beathorse:

I've thought about saying this on different occasions in other threads in regards to Marvin. I have to say that I have little faith that he will ever be anything special. I can sum up Marvin in one game.....last year's Seattle matchup in Seattle.

He was back in his old stomping grounds ,wanting to impress. Marvin took that game over, scoring 33 pts and being the player that we need him to be on a nightly basis.

However, that game was the game that solidified my opinion on Marvin. He could be exceptional if he wanted to. But up to this point, he only chooses to stretch his game to the next level on special occasions. That is the prime example of the lack of heart, motivation, and passion that seems to follow him and is routinely been his chief criticism. The fact that he can take his game to that level when motivated is what lets me know he doesn't want to be a special player based on his consistent mediocrity.

I can throw everything else out the window and just use this one game as the ultimate realization of what Marvin Williams is. A special performace that proves quite the opposite.

It's all about what he can bring and at what price. If he can be 6yr-42(45) mil and bring the skills and potenial he has then he well worth his price tag.

[frosgrim]

I know we have a difference of opinion about Marvin but i have a couple of questions for his fans:

What if MW doesn't want to be the second scorer?

What if he can't get his shot off against tougher defense that a number two scorer has to face?

How do you know Marvin isn't fine with being a role player?

Do you believe that a player being nice off the court and being coachable equates to him being a beast on the floor? Dwight Howard is.

If Marvin doesn't want the spot light, and none of knows what he wants, then I don't think he's the right guy to have on the team. Marvin has the tools to be a 20 point a night guy, but he needs to take the necessary steps to get there. The Hawks really need a true second scorer. Marvin seems to be the guy most suited to that skill-set wise on the roster*.

I don't understand your last sentence.

*Some could rightly argue that Josh Smith needs to be that #2 guy. I would say that until Josh demonstrates that he can play within the flow of the offense that he is not made out to be a #2 scorer. I like Smith a lot, but his role is to be that #3 scoring option and the defensive anchor. Plus, Josh brings that energy and possibility every night of him going off. Josh's role then is to be a disrupter, which I think he excels at.

[Zone034life]

If Marvin doesn't want the spot light, and none of knows what he wants, then I don't think he's the right guy to have on the team. Marvin has the tools to be a 20 point a night guy, but he needs to take the necessary steps to get there. The Hawks really need a true second scorer. Marvin seems to be the guy most suited to that skill-set wise on the roster*.

I don't understand your last sentence.

*Some could rightly argue that Josh Smith needs to be that #2 guy. I would say that until Josh demonstrates that he can play within the flow of the offense that he is not made out to be a #2 scorer. I like Smith a lot, but his role is to be that #3 scoring option and the defensive anchor. Plus, Josh brings that energy and possibility every night of him going off. Josh's role then is to be a disrupter, which I think he excels at.

Which last sentence are you referring to? The one in the quote in your post or the one in my overall post?

As for the number two scorer i would rather Smoove or Marvin not be it. A veteran would be much more suited. That doesn't seem like it is going to happen right now so Smoove is it by default.

I heard CP3 say on a NBAtv show that he would rather stay aggresseive than not. Right now Smoove has aggressiveness, confidence and experience over Marvin being the number two option.

[ATLBob]

Which last sentence are you referring to? The one in the quote in your post or the one in my overall post?

As for the number two scorer i would rather Smoove or Marvin not be it. A veteran would be much more suited. That doesn't seem like it is going to happen right now so Smoove is it by default.

I heard CP3 say on a NBAtv show that he would rather stay aggresseive than not. Right now Smoove has aggressiveness, confidence and experience over Marvin being the number two option.

Why do y'all insist that Marv displays no aggression? He led the team in free-throw attempts, and he got to the charity stripe by attacking the basket.

aggressive

[EazyRoc]

While I agree with you, I think Josh Smith actually led the team with FTA.

EDIT: Nevermind. Marvin did lead in FTM.

Edited August 8, 2008 by EazyRoc

[frosgrim]

"Do you believe that a player being nice off the court and being coachable equates to him being a beast on the floor? Dwight Howard is."

Sorry for the confusion. What do you mean here.

What I see with Marvin is a guy with a skill-set that is more offensively dynamic that Smith's; therefore, IMO, Marvin is a better option than Smith for the #2 scorer. I can see the argument for Smith, but the fact that Marvin is MUCH better outside than Josh, means Marvin has more scoring options. Another thing that Marvin has that Josh doesn't is a babby hook. I don't have any idea why Marvin doesn't use that shot more than he does.

I think we are in agreement that Marvin hasn't been agressive as he needs to be to be that #2 option. If the light comes on, and that's a big IF right now, I just see him as a better #2 option.

Josh can still get his 18 a night and be that wildcard player that every team needs. In other words, you make/groom Marvin to take shots throughout the game, but you let Smith explode when he has a chance. That plan exploits the strengths of both guys.

[ATLBob]

While I agree with you, I think Josh Smith actually led the team with FTA.

Marvin

Josh

Marv had 76 more attempts.

Edit: Haha, just saw your edit.

Edited August 8, 2008 by ATLBob

[Zone034life]

"Do you believe that a player being nice off the court and being coachable equates to him being a beast on the floor? Dwight Howard is."

Sorry for the confusion. What do you mean here.

What I see with Marvin is a guy with a skill-set that is more offensively dynamic that Smith's; therefore, IMO, Marvin is a better option than Smith for the #2 scorer. I can see the argument for Smith, but the fact that Marvin is MUCH better outside than Josh, means Marvin has more scoring options. Another thing that Marvin has that Josh doesn't is a babby hook. I don't have any idea why Marvin doesn't use that shot more than he does.

I think we are in agreement that Marvin hasn't been agressive as he needs to be to be that #2 option. If the light comes on, and that's a big IF right now, I just see him as a better #2 option.

Josh can still get his 18 a night and be that wildcard player that every team needs. In other words, you make/groom Marvin to take shots throughout the game, but you let Smith explode when he has a chance. That plan exploits the strengths of both guys.

I disagree with Marvin having more upside. Smooves post game seperates him from Marvin IMO. For all the talk about Smoove not being able to shoot he has come up big on morethan a few occassions for this team in crutch time. Marvins big plays in the fourth quarter i can remember are mostly put backs. Marvin hasn't shown he can take the ball in the fourth quarter and lead this team to a win. Smoove has proven his worth in big moments for this team.

I don't like Marvin shooting that hook shot as much as you. It shows me he isn't quick enough to go around his defender so he settles for taking a hook shot which doesn't require beating your man off the dribble.

I actually expect Horford to move past Marvin as an option. The Hawks need his inside presence.

[EazyRoc]

I disagree with Marvin having more upside. Smooves post game seperates him from Marvin IMO. For all the talk about Smoove not being able to shoot he has come up big on morethan a few occassions for this team in crutch time. Marvins big plays in the fourth quarter i can remember are mostly put backs. Marvin hasn't shown he can take the ball in the fourth quarter and lead this team to a win. Smoove has proven his worth in big moments for this team.

I don't like Marvin shooting that hook shot as much as you. It shows me he isn't quick enough to go around his defender so he settles for taking a hook shot which doesn't require beating your man off the dribble.

I actually expect Horford to move past Marvin as an option. The Hawks need his inside presence.

What post game ?