Enough with the Rondo all star talk already

[Admin]

Rajon Rondo-another example of how badly botched the 2006 draft was :beat:

From what I remember BK tried pretty hard to get a pick in the teens to draft Rondo because he was a long defensive minded PG and was close with Smoove. Looking back Rondo would have been a solid pick at 5 but nobody thought he should go that high at the time. Hell for all we know it could have been the ASG not willing (or being able to) buy the pick from the Suns like the Celtics did, or maybe the Suns didn't want to deal with us after all of the Joe Johnson drama.

[bronnt]

From what I remember BK tried pretty hard to get a pick in the teens to draft Rondo because he was a long defensive minded PG and was close with Smoove. Looking back Rondo would have been a solid pick at 5 but nobody thought he should go that high at the time. Hell for all we know it could have been the ASG not willing (or being able to) buy the pick from the Suns like the Celtics did, or maybe the Suns didn't want to deal with us after all of the Joe Johnson drama.

I don't remember all of that. I simply was pointing out how pretty much everyone else in the first round would have been a better choice than Shelden Williams.

About the only guy who's been less useful than Shelden is Saer Sene :doh:

[NJHAWK]

So the Celtics cruised last season with Rondo as their only clear weak link. Now you guys are calling a guy who other teams dont even assign a man to guard half the time as the most important player on their team? They got Cassel because they had little faith in Rondo at the time. I know he has improved since last year when he looked like Royal Ivey but his improvment isnt even close to all start status. Didnt Anthony Johnson have a great assist to turnover ratio as well and he played pretty good d too but we sure win more with Bibby. I know Rondo is a better defender than AJ but most important player on the team? A guy they wouldnt win without? lol thats hysterical. I gues Rodman was the most important player on the Bulls and Piston title teams. Guys like Jordon, Isiah and Dumars would have never won without him because he could play defense right, lol. Rodman could do 2 things great cause he was an elite defender and rebounder. Rondo does one thing really well and that is defense but not on Rodmans level. The kis is a nice roll player unless your on a message board full of UK nuts.

[AHF]

Very few people think Rondo is more important than Garnett.

I think I am the only UK nut on this thread, yet a lot of people recognize just how good he is getting. When non-UK fans like dlpin, Gray Mule, Dolfan, GameTime, etc. are recognizing how important and productive he has become that should make you reexamine your own perspective on this.

Edited December 21, 2008 by AHF

[dlpin]

So the Celtics cruised last season with Rondo as their only clear weak link. Now you guys are calling a guy who other teams dont even assign a man to guard half the time as the most important player on their team? They got Cassel because they had little faith in Rondo at the time. I know he has improved since last year when he looked like Royal Ivey but his improvment isnt even close to all start status. Didnt Anthony Johnson have a great assist to turnover ratio as well and he played pretty good d too but we sure win more with Bibby. I know Rondo is a better defender than AJ but most important player on the team? A guy they wouldnt win without? lol thats hysterical. I gues Rodman was the most important player on the Bulls and Piston title teams. Guys like Jordon, Isiah and Dumars would have never won without him because he could play defense right, lol. Rodman could do 2 things great cause he was an elite defender and rebounder. Rondo does one thing really well and that is defense but not on Rodmans level. The kis is a nice roll player unless your on a message board full of UK nuts.

I think Gray Mule was the only one who said he was the most important player on the celtics.

I said that this season he is the second most important, and I backed it up with numbers, something you still havent.

And you keep making the same mistake over and over. I mean: " Rondo does one thing really well and that is defense"

That is like saying "Steve Nash does one thing really well, and that is offense."

Defense is half the game. It goes well beyond stealing the ball (heck, if steals was what defense is all about, marcus banks would be an all star). Rondo is an excellent rebounder for a PG, defends the screen really well, is a great help defender, etc, etc. And Rondo is a great passer to boot.

And did Anthony Johnson ever rank 3rd in steals in the league? 3rd in defensive efficiency?

And the celtics brought in Cassel last season because they were unsure of how a sophomore PG would handle in the playoffs. Ask every single celtics fan, heck, ask anyone who watched the playoff games last year, who they would rather have on the court for them.

Your argument so far is that he doesnt shoot well, that people dont guard against his J. So what? That was true for Jason Kidd for a very long time as well. He does a great job distributing the ball and involving everyone, and, most importantly, he is an excellent defender. Defense is not "one thing," defense is half the game. In truth, Rondo only does poorly on one thing: shooting. Everything else (shot selection, distributing the ball, stealing, screen defense, help defense, rebounding) he does really well. Heck, for a 22 year old to realize that his J sucks and not try to force shows incredible maturity (hello, Josh Smith). His shot selection is so good he leads all pgs in fg%.

But hey, you can disagree all you like. It is just a matter of backing it up. If he is so far from being an all star in the eastern conference, tell me the names of 5 PGs you would rather have over him from eastern teams. Heck, tell me 3 who are playing better than him right now.

I can think of devin harris for sure, and maybe Calderon. But who else? Derrick Rose will certainly be better, but right now his D is too atrocious.

So, who else?

Edited December 21, 2008 by dlpin

[NJHAWK]

Wow he is 3rd in steals. Smoove is usually 2nd in blocks and he isnt an all star. You say your backing up your claim with stats but your throwing out things like 3rd in steals and def efficency. 11 and 7 are ok #'s for a point but one playing with 3 all pros should have pretty good #'s, I know Lue put up similar #'s off the bench for us a few years back. Bibby's 16 and 5 arent bad considering he has one legit star with him in Joe. 11 and 7 are not all star #'s especially when you haVE 3/5's of a dream team. Your can put him on the all defense team in the backcourt with Raja Bell for all I care but he cant even sniff all star. I also firmly believe the Hawks would be below .500 if we had him instead of Bibby. Even if Woody played him.

[dlpin]

Wow he is 3rd in steals. Smoove is usually 2nd in blocks and he isnt an all star. You say your backing up your claim with stats but your throwing out things like 3rd in steals and def efficency. 11 and 7 are ok #'s for a point but one playing with 3 all pros should have pretty good #'s, I know Lue put up similar #'s off the bench for us a few years back. Bibby's 16 and 5 arent bad considering he has one legit star with him in Joe. 11 and 7 are not all star #'s especially when you haVE 3/5's of a dream team. Your can put him on the all defense team in the backcourt with Raja Bell for all I care but he cant even sniff all star. I also firmly believe the Hawks would be below .500 if we had him instead of Bibby. Even if Woody played him.

Do you know how defensive efficiency is calculated? That is the best all around indicator of how good someone is on defense, going well beyond steals. The fact that he is 3rd in the league in it is the best indicator of how good he is, and the fact that he is playing with 3 all pros would not help him here, but only hurt him. Defensive rating is a complicated stat that compares the performance of your team defensively when you are on the court vs out, controlling for the defensive rating of the people you play with. In other words, if rondo made no difference on how good defensively the celtics are, his number would not be anywhere close to where they are. The fact that rondo is also top 5 in defensive win shares only furthers the argument.

And as I said, you seem fixated on PPG.

Excellent shot selection, as evidenced by being tops among PGs in fg%? check

excellent passing decisions, as evidenced by being 3rd in assist to to ratio? check

excellent defense, as evidenced by every single comprehensive defensive statistic? check

Proven D skill against top competition, as evidenced by how poorly allen iverson, chris paul, and so on played against the celtics? check

The stats prove its not only his teammates (besides, is PP really all-pro this season with his 40% shooting? is ray allen any good defensively anymore?).

And you still refuse to answer me: name 3 PGs in the eastern conference who are clearly playing better BBALL than rondo right now. If you cant do that, then he should get all the all star consideration he is getting. The same cannot be said for Josh Smith (Garnett, Bosh, Jamison - and it is much harder to go to the all star as a forward than a PG, as there are so few good PGs in the eastern conf).

[Cwell]

Wow he is 3rd in steals. Smoove is usually 2nd in blocks and he isnt an all star. You say your backing up your claim with stats but your throwing out things like 3rd in steals and def efficency. 11 and 7 are ok #'s for a point but one playing with 3 all pros should have pretty good #'s, I know Lue put up similar #'s off the bench for us a few years back. Bibby's 16 and 5 arent bad considering he has one legit star with him in Joe. 11 and 7 are not all star #'s especially when you haVE 3/5's of a dream team. Your can put him on the all defense team in the backcourt with Raja Bell for all I care but he cant even sniff all star. I also firmly believe the Hawks would be below .500 if we had him instead of Bibby. Even if Woody played him.

yes we would be losing if we had Rondo instead of Bibby but that's more because of Woody's "system" than how good Rondo is.