Dusty Baker Does it Again!

[KB21]

You know, I actually like Dusty Baker some. I respected what he did with the San Francisco Giants, and at one time I would have welcomed him as the new manager for the Braves when Bobby Cox retires. However, this guy is death to pitchers. I don't recall him blowing out arms with the Giants, but with Chicago, he ruined Mark Prior and Kerry Wood. Now, the Reds best pitcher Edison Volquez looks like he is heading for elbow surgery. Maybe Dusty had very little to do with it since UCL injuries are becoming as common for MLB pitchers as ACL injuries are for NFL players. However, there is a clear trend of Dusty overusing his arms to the tune of 140+ pitch counts.

Like I said, I respect what Dusty has done in the past. I think he's a terrific offensive minded manager that can do a lot for a team's hitting. This guy seriously needs a pitching coach like Leo Mazzone to handle his pitching staff though.

[Admin]

You know, I actually like Dusty Baker some. I respected what he did with the San Francisco Giants, and at one time I would have welcomed him as the new manager for the Braves when Bobby Cox retires. However, this guy is death to pitchers. I don't recall him blowing out arms with the Giants, but with Chicago, he ruined Mark Prior and Kerry Wood. Now, the Reds best pitcher Edison Volquez looks like he is heading for elbow surgery. Maybe Dusty had very little to do with it since UCL injuries are becoming as common for MLB pitchers as ACL injuries are for NFL players. However, there is a clear trend of Dusty overusing his arms to the tune of 140+ pitch counts.

Like I said, I respect what Dusty has done in the past. I think he's a terrific offensive minded manager that can do a lot for a team's hitting. This guy seriously needs a pitching coach like Leo Mazzone to handle his pitching staff though.

It's really a shame what some of these managers are doing to these young pitchers. I saw a stat the other night during a Yankees game when Joba Chamberlain was pitching and it said that there is clear data that shows that if you increase a young pitchers innings by more than 40 in a season that the following season he either suffers an injury or has an awful season. They used Fausto Carmona in Cleveland as an example of how dominant he was in 2007 when they had him throw 215 innings and he was dominant and since then he has been awful and has looked tired. I'm thankful that there are good managers out there who take care of young pitchers like the Yankees are doing with Joba in saying that once he hits 160 innings this year they are going to shut him down. It sucks in the middle of a pennant race but if it saves his career then I'll all for it. It's tragic when you see potentially brilliant careers like Pryor, Wood, and I guess now Volquez be ruined by being overworked.

[KB21]

It's really a shame what some of these managers are doing to these young pitchers. I saw a stat the other night during a Yankees game when Joba Chamberlain was pitching and it said that there is clear data that shows that if you increase a young pitchers innings by more than 40 in a season that the following season he either suffers an injury or has an awful season. They used Fausto Carmona in Cleveland as an example of how dominant he was in 2007 when they had him throw 215 innings and he was dominant and since then he has been awful and has looked tired. I'm thankful that there are good managers out there who take care of young pitchers like the Yankees are doing with Joba in saying that once he hits 160 innings this year they are going to shut him down. It sucks in the middle of a pennant race but if it saves his career then I'll all for it. It's tragic when you see potentially brilliant careers like Pryor, Wood, and I guess now Volquez be ruined by being overworked.

I think this is an even bigger problem in college, which is why I favor drafting high school and junior college arms over senior college arms unless the are very special. While there is a chance you will get damaged goods from a high school arm, you never know how damaged a senior college pitcher is if he has tossed a bunch of innings at the college level. I know our coach John Cohen at Mississippi State caught some flack early in the season when he had Tyler Whitney throw 152 pitches against Tennessee in a losing effort, particulary when Tyler was battling and running up a lot of 3-2 counts on the UT hitters. The game Texas and Boston College had caught headlines as well. Skip Bertman was notorious for overusing his pitchers at LSU, and it looks like Mike Bianco at Ole Miss learned from him. Drew Pomeranz is a good looking pitching prospect, but the way he was used at the end of the season should have Ole Miss fans up in arms. In fact, some of them would like to see Bianco get fired and Dan McDonnell at Lousiville brought in. Personaly, I think those fans are foolish. Ole Miss would still be a doormat in SEC Baseball if they didn't have Mike Bianco. Tim Corbin at Vanderbilt does a very good job of monitor the work load on his pitchers. There is a reason Vanderbilt has had four pitchers drafted in the first round in the past 6 years I believe, and those arms are still healthy. This is the reason I'm not as down on the Mike Minor pick as a lot of Braves fans are.

[Admin]

Good point about getting guys out of high school and early in college. What's amazing is that years ago pitchers routinely threw around 300 innings and there weren't arm injuries like there are today. Are they getting overworked when they are young or are they not being trained properly?

I don't know much about the Braves prospects but that kid Tommy Hanson sure looks like he is going to be special. I wonder what types of limits they'll put on him as far as innings are concerned this season.

[TroyMcClure]

I'm thankful that there are good managers out there who take care of young pitchers like the Yankees are doing with Joba in saying that once he hits 160 innings this year they are going to shut him down. It sucks in the middle of a pennant race but if it saves his career then I'll all for it. It's tragic when you see potentially brilliant careers like Pryor, Wood, and I guess now Volquez be ruined by being overworked.

Who cares about individual careers over a team's success? The point of playing is to try to win. You can't, forgive the cheese, leave anything in the tank. I'd bet quite a bit that fans of say, Tampa Bay or anyone but Boston and NY would feel a lot differently than you do. Most teams don't challenge for decades at a time with a virtually unlimited budget. Makes me glad Tommy didn't tell anyone about the broken rib back in the day. I understand real injuries, but a preventative shut down with no absolute data is a gamble most companies could not take.

This guy seriously needs a pitching coach like Leo Mazzone to handle his pitching staff though.

KB, this contradicts your logic about Dusty. Leo worked his pitchers more than anyone in baseball. They threw more on the side than any other organization. As a result, guys like Burkett and Wright and Mulholland and a ton of others, would gain as much as 5 miles an hour on their fastball in middle age. But that style rubs a lot of people the wrong way and that's why no one was really sad to see him go. I was.

I don't really believe in pitch counts for adults. I'm with Nolan Ryan. He's outlawed pitch counts in the Rangers organization. He only pitched till he was like 45.

Edited August 3, 2009 by TroyMcClure

[Admin]

Who cares about individual careers over a team's success? The point of playing is to try to win. You can't, forgive the cheese, leave anything in the tank. I'd bet quite a bit that fans of say, Tampa Bay or anyone but Boston and NY would feel a lot differently than you do. Most teams don't challenge for decades at a time with a virtually unlimited budget. Makes me glad Tommy didn't tell anyone about the broken rib back in the day. I understand real injuries, but a preventative shut down with no absolute data is a gamble most companies could not take.

Who cares about individual careers? Maybe the owners who are paying millions to these players and would like more than 1 good year out of them and then has to pay to bring in a veteran to replace them in the rotation? Or maybe the GM who drafted them and had them developed throughout the system only to see them blow out their arm and then not be useful on the mound or as a trade asset?

Don't you think that Tampa wishes that they had been a little easier on their young arms last year seeing how ineffective they are this year? They are an absolutely loaded team with the potential to win the world series every year for a while but their pitching stinks compared to last year because they were overworked. Same with the Indians from 2007. If you take the time to develop these young pitchers and get them to the point where they can regularly throw 200+ innings without strain you have the potential to have a very good rotation every year.

Also, from what I heard during the telecast there is significant data that proves that increasing a young pitchers innings count by more than 40 in a season leads to injury or ineffectiveness the following year(s) so it sounds to me like they firmly believe it is "absolute data". Just because it's taken this long to figure this out doesn't mean that it's not accurate.

And I'd like to also mention that while I respect Nolan Ryan he was a freak of nature and history has shown that he's not the norm. You just can't have unlimited pitch counts in baseball today and expect to get more than a year, maybe 2, out of young pitchers.

[TroyMcClure]

Heard the guys on MLB talking about this the other night. Their collective opinion is that you want to watch out for arm trouble, but if the Yanks are still in a race and Joba feels good, there would be like a 99% chance they would continue to pitch him. We'll see. I just don't believe in saving something for later when you need it now. You just can't pull the plug on someone because of what you "think" might happen. If a guy can't physically throw 200 innings every year, he's not a starter amyway, imo.