Kudos to Billy Knight and Rick Sund

[dlpin]

- Concerning Ainge:

All I'm saying is that he didn't draft Rondo when he had the chance to get him. You guys forget that Ainge's guy was actually SEBASTIAN TELFAIR . . the guy who he traded the draft rights of Randy Foye for ( who BOS took at #7 ). If he had such an eye for talent, why didn't he do what Portland eventually did . . . trade Foye to acquire Roy, to play alongside Pierce? People forget that Foye was traded twice that night.

BK gets ripped for trying to bolster the frontline, by adding the college DPOY and one of the best shotblokers and rebounders in college coming out ( Shelden ), instead of adding a great 2-guard to the mix ( Roy ) . . . when we already had a 2-guard in the mix ( JJ ). And he got ripped for not adding one of the PGs too. I'll admit that trading down may have been the way to go. But he was still taking Shelden regardless, if he were available.

So if Ainge saw Rondo as a talent, why not take him at #7? Why did he basically trade Foye for Telfair?

And let's keep it real about Rondo that night. His draft stock was plummeting, just like Marcus Williams' stock. Teams were passing on those guys left and right. But Phoenix could've used a PG, especially a defensive one, to play behind Steve Nash. But their owner was so concerned about paying the luxury tax, that they were willing to trade away the pick for cash. If memory serves me correct, they ended up getting Marcus Banks that year ( a disasterous move ).

Ya'll talk like Phoenix has pre-draft night negotiations to sell the pick to Boston, so that they could pick Rondo. I'll give Ainge credit for trading up to get him, because a cheap organization didn't want to spend money to keep their 1st round pick.

Ainge added Rondo to give him another PG to try out in Boston. But he wasn't his top guy. Ainge basically got lucky that he was able to get another shot to acquire him in the first place. Then when Rondo struggles mightily in his rookie year, people in Boston were really pissed.

Until the KG trade, people in Boston were considering Ainge's legacy as GM as a complete failure.

Being better at drafting doesn't mean that one is infallible. He was the one who saw the talent when so many other GMs passed. In fact, part of the skills necessary being good at drafting is getting the good value for little investment. The fact that he didn't draft him at 7 is irrelevant, as it just means he thought he could get him lower than 7, and the fact that Rondo was starting over Telfair by the end of the season shows that. As far as Phoenix's owner being cheap, it was an open bid. Anyone else could have bought that pick and selected Rondo.

And you keep focusing on just Rondo. Why don't you say anything about Al Jefferson, Kendrick Perkins, Delonte West, Big Baby, Ryan Gomes?

And again, this was in reply to the person who asked who drafted better than BK. There is absolutely no doubt that Ainge drafted much better than BK.

Finally, the whole "until KG ainge was a failure" argument makes no sense. It's like saying that until he won a super bowl, payton manning couldnt win the big game.

First of all, a lot of people in Boston at the time really liked Al Jefferson and thought that Boston was trading away its future for a chance to lose the ECF. Second of all, you act like the KG trade was nothing, or that it was just a gift. It took a lot of skill to pull that one off. KG had been approached by Boston earlier and didnt want to go there because they saw the team as too young (in fact, originally the number 5 pick was going to Minny in a trade, but KG vetoed it ). Ainge traded for Allen because of that, in a trade that at the time people thought made no sense for Boston. Allen then convinced KG to go to Boston. And Boston was not Minnesota's first option. They wanted to trade KG to the lakers, but the lakers did not want to part with Bynum, then they tried Phoenix, but phoenix did not want to part with Amare. Then Dallas, but dallas didnt want to trade Nowitzki. Finally, everyone was certain that he was going to Chicago. But Paxson didn't want to give up the core of its young team.

[AHF]

- Concerning Ainge:

All I'm saying is that he didn't draft Rondo when he had the chance to get him. You guys forget that Ainge's guy was actually SEBASTIAN TELFAIR . . the guy who he traded the draft rights of Randy Foye for ( who BOS took at #7 ). If he had such an eye for talent, why didn't he do what Portland eventually did . . . trade Foye to acquire Roy, to play alongside Pierce? People forget that Foye was traded twice that night.

BK gets ripped for trying to bolster the frontline, by adding the college DPOY and one of the best shotblokers and rebounders in college coming out ( Shelden ), instead of adding a great 2-guard to the mix ( Roy ) . . . when we already had a 2-guard in the mix ( JJ ). And he got ripped for not adding one of the PGs too. I'll admit that trading down may have been the way to go. But he was still taking Shelden regardless, if he were available.

So if Ainge saw Rondo as a talent, why not take him at #7? Why did he basically trade Foye for Telfair?

And let's keep it real about Rondo that night. His draft stock was plummeting, just like Marcus Williams' stock. Teams were passing on those guys left and right. But Phoenix could've used a PG, especially a defensive one, to play behind Steve Nash. But their owner was so concerned about paying the luxury tax, that they were willing to trade away the pick for cash. If memory serves me correct, they ended up getting Marcus Banks that year ( a disasterous move ).

Ya'll talk like Phoenix has pre-draft night negotiations to sell the pick to Boston, so that they could pick Rondo. I'll give Ainge credit for trading up to get him, because a cheap organization didn't want to spend money to keep their 1st round pick.

Ainge added Rondo to give him another PG to try out in Boston. But he wasn't his top guy. Ainge basically got lucky that he was able to get another shot to acquire him in the first place.

If you use this to discredit Ainge's selection of Rondo you must likewise discredit BK's selection of Josh Smith.

BK saw Josh Smith as a SF (had him playing SG even his rookie year).

He selected Childress over Smith.

Smith draft stock plummeted and he got passed up right and left.

Smith wasn't BK's top guy. BK basically got lucky that he was able to get another shot to acquire Smith in the first place.

I give both Ainge and BK credit for those picks, but you can't have it work only one way.

Edited November 11, 2009 by AHF

[Sasquatch]

The person I was replying to asked who drafted better than BK, which is why I didnt discuss trades.

Correct...

I appreciate that. We are getting a lot of comments about the Ainge trade and others like that. Which is outside the scope of what BK is being criticized for. BK is criticized for draft picks.

Who did not know that Pierce, Garnett, Ray Allen would be a championship caliber squad. Making that trade has more to do with circumstances than skill as a talent evaluator. It helped sway Garnett and Allen that Pierce was already on the team, which Ainge had nothing to do with. It helped that Ownership was willing to make the financial commitment which some owners are not and the GM is not on a level playing field with others.

Nevertheless...

I am loving the opinions based on actual facts

I'm still soaking it all in right now... I see a few that I'm gonna cut off at the knees

We have a lot of information here right now...

I am trying to look at who was listed as better and why...

After I soak some of this information up I'm gonna come out blastin

Edited November 11, 2009 by Sasquatch

[Sasquatch]

completing the list above:

Kupchak ((Bynum, Vujacic, farmar with just one lottery pick)

Walsh (Reggie Miller, Granger, Al Harrington, all picked lower than 10)

Pat Riley (Wade, Butler)

Sam Presti (Durant, Green, russel westbrook)

John Paxson (Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Duhon, Nocioni, Rose)

Donnie Nelson (Devin Harris, Josh Howard)

Geoff Petrie (Stojakovic, Williams, Turkoglu, Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin)

And most of these haven't had as many lottery picks as he did. Now, to return the challenge: name the GMs who has passed on as many good players as he has.

I'm gonna start with Walsh...

I personally think Walsh is a very good General Manager... HOWEVER...

That is based on my own standard of judging general managers, where you look at what the team is doing

Unfortunately... BK is being criticized for "what could have been", "who we could have had"...

So according to y'alls standard, your impression of Walsh should not be as good as mine...

You see, if you composed a team of who Walsh did not draft and compared it to who he did draft, the Pacers "would have" won championship after championship... With players he did not draft

1988 - Took Rick Smits one all star game over

Mitch Richmond (Six Time All Star Rookie of the Year)

1989 - Took George Mcloud (who is this guy?) over

Shawn Kemp (All Star)

Tim Hardaway (All Star/All Pro)

Vlade Divac (All Star)

Mookie Blaylock (All Star)

Clifford Robinson (All Star)

1992 - Took Malik Sealy over

Latrell Sprewell (All Star)

1993 - Took Scott Haskin over

Sam Cassell (All Star)

Nick Van Exel (All Star)

1996 - Took Eric Dampier over

Steve Nash (All Star, All Pro, MVP)

Jermaine O'Neal (All Star)

Zydrunas Ilgauskas (All Star)

Peja Stojakovic (All Star)

Kobe Bryant

2001 - Took Jamaal Tinsley over

Gilbert Arenas (All Star)

Wait a minute...

Dis cat took Eric Dampier over Kobe Bryant. I refuse to continue...

This guy could have built one of the Greatest Dynasties in NBA history just off of his draft day misses/blunders alone.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Sasquatch

[dlpin]

snip

Yes, Walsh missed on a lot of talent. But he also had a few quite amazing hits:

Reggie Miller at 11

Antonio Davis at 45

Dale Davis at 13

Al Harrington at 25

Granger at 17

If in a 20 year career you only find 5 drafts he would like to do over, that is a pretty good career. BK would certainly like to do over 4 out of 5 of his years. In fact, the pacers would not trade Granger for anyone BK took, straight up.

Edited November 11, 2009 by dlpin

[Sasquatch]

Yes, Walsh missed on a lot of talent. But he also had a few quite amazing hits:

Reggie Miller at 11

Antonio Davis at 45

Dale Davis at 13

Al Harrington at 25

Granger at 17

If in a 20 year career you only find 5 drafts he would like to do over, that is a pretty good career. BK would certainly like to do over 4 out of 5 of his years. In fact, the pacers would not trade Granger for anyone BK took, straight up.

BK is criticized for "what could have been"

Don't move the goal post

Gotta give you props though...

You stepped up to the plate and put your chips on the table...

I like that...

This feels like a real debate

Edited November 11, 2009 by Sasquatch

[dlpin]

BK is criticized for "what could have been"

Don't move the goal post

Gotta give you props though...

You stepped up to the plate and put your chips on the table...

I like that...

This feels like a real debate

Im not moving the goal posts. The question is who was better at drafting. Donnie Walsh missed some, but hit some too. As such, the difference between what could have been and what was was actually a lot smaller than the difference between what the hawks could have been and what it is. Of Walsh's 20 odd drafts, how many would the pacers' fans like a do over? Maybe 5 or 6. Of BK's 5 drafts as a hawk, how many would hawks fans like a do over? 3? 4?

[AHF]

No one who thinks the comparison between Knight and Isiah is ridiculous is willing to defend Billy's drafting history compared to Isiah's?

[sillent]

First of all, a GM is not evaluated by how good a team is, but how good it could be. We all agree that McHale was bad as a gm, and yet he's had more success than 80% of the gms out there. Why? Because he wasted years of good picks through the joe smith fiasco, he consistently did bad trades and wasted money on bad character guys. Chris Wallace had some success in boston. Took the team to the ECF, which is more than the hawks have done in decades. Was he a good GM? No. The list of players he traded away or passed on the draft is enormous.

Bad character guys. Yeah our draft picks are reckin havoc in da A. All the jail time, fines, suspensions,etc.. Might as well call us the Jail Blazers part two or the ATL bad boys. :laughing5:

Josh Smith, Boris Diaw alone trumps this. Rondo is a trouble maker. Jefferson is good but is he(the same could go for Horford)??? The rest are serviceable(Solo,Acie,Salim well maybe not currently). Seriously though is this the best example? If so it doesn't make BK look that bad with his biggest comparison being Ainge.

[thefloydian]

I think you need to reread what he said.

[thefloydian]

Josh Smith, Boris Diaw alone trumps this. Rondo is a trouble maker. Jefferson is good but is he(the same could go for Horford)??? The rest are serviceable(Solo,Acie,Salim well maybe not currently). Seriously though is this the best example? If so it doesn't make BK look that bad with his biggest comparison being Ainge.

You can't just single out two good players and say he did better than Ainge. Ainge didn't draft Marvin, Shelden, Acie and Childress.

[dlpin]

Josh Smith, Boris Diaw alone trumps this. Rondo is a trouble maker. Jefferson is good but is he(the same could go for Horford)??? The rest are serviceable(Solo,Acie,Salim well maybe not currently). Seriously though is this the best example? If so it doesn't make BK look that bad with his biggest comparison being Ainge.

First of all, I did not say that BK picked bad character guys. I said that, similarly to McHale, he might have put a decent team together, but he has to be judged by how much better it could have been.

And if you think that Josh Smith and Boris Diaw are better than Al Jefferson, Rajon Rondo, Delonte West, Kendrik Perkins and the rest, you are delusional.

Rondo is not a troublemaker. People have claimed that he is sometimes stubborn and not willing to change his game, but then again, the same can be said for Josh Smith.

You are entitled to your opinion. But no one who seriously follows basketball thinks that Boris Diaw is anywhere near the level of a Rondo or an Al Jefferson. Josh Smith is closer, but no one would consider him to be on the level of the 2 either.

And are you seriously saying that Perkins (a starter on a championship team who averaged a double double in last year's playoffs), Big Baby (who averaged 16 points a game when replacing KG) and Powe are on the same level as guys who never cracked the rotation on the hawks?

And all this ignoring the elephant in the room: Ainge picked those players without having a top 10 pick. BK had 4.

[sillent]

completing the list above:

Kupchak ((Bynum, Vujacic, farmar with just one lottery pick)

Seriously?? In this case you can put Marvin in the same category.

Walsh (Reggie Miller, Granger, Al Harrington, all picked lower than 10)

These players are from different eras so how long did this take and where is the championship?

Pat Riley (Wade, Butler)

Great but in the same boat as the Hawks and with less players to boast(Yeah they made it to the playoffs but championship came with trading alot of talent via Celtics).

Sam Presti (Durant, Green, russel westbrook)

:thumbsupsmileyanim: but they haven't made the playoffs yet!!

John Paxson (Hinrich, Gordon(lottery/gone), Deng, Duhon(gone), Nocioni(gone), Rose)

Still rebuilding, still no championship!!

Donnie Nelson (Devin Harris, Josh Howard)

Is this the best you got?

Geoff Petrie (Stojakovic, Williams, Turkoglu, Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin)

Yeah I remember their championship. lol :thumbsdownsmileyanim: Gerald Wallace = Boris Diaw funny their on the same team. Kevin Martin is their current best player to boast? Besides Williams(good but did he make an allstar team? I can't remember), Stojakob*tch was a choker and Turkoglu took awhile before his talent/skills were even realized.

And most of these haven't had as many lottery picks as he did. Now, to return the challenge: name the GMs who has passed on as many good players as he has.

Good try but you need alot of :help wanted3: to make these hold versus BK.

[sillent]

LOL

Childress and Marvin were bad picks considering where they were drafted and the players available.

Isiah drafted Damon Stoudamire, Marcus Camby, Tracy McGrady, David Lee (at 30) , Ariza (at 44). He didn't blow lottery picks time and again like BK.

Isiah was a horrible GM but a much better drafter than BK.

Lets not forget that BK has never had a winning record as a GM.

Name the last five drafts from New York that Isiah drafted.

[dlpin]

Seriously?? In this case you can put Marvin in the same category.

Except Marvin was the second pick, Bynum the 10th, Vujacic the 27th. Other than that, yeah, they are similar in quality, which speaks volumes.

These players are from different eras so how long did this take and where is the championship?

Danny Granger is not from a different era, and he is better than anyone BK picked

Great but in the same boat as the Hawks and with less players to boast(Yeah they made it to the playoffs but championship came with trading alot of talent via Celtics).

Same boat? Caron Butler and Dwyane Wade same boat as the hawks picks?

:thumbsupsmileyanim: but they haven't made the playoffs yet!!

You can't pick and choose. You can't say that championships and success doesn't matter on one hand and then it matter on the other. In any case, Presti has been there 2 years. Let's see where he is at after 5 years, like BK had.

Still rebuilding, still no championship!!

Again, you can't pick and choose your argument. The question was who drafted better. Chicago has undoubtedly drafted better than the Hawks.

Is this the best you got?

You can't be serious.

Yeah I remember their championship. lol :thumbsdownsmileyanim: Gerald Wallace = Boris Diaw funny their on the same team. Kevin Martin is their current best player to boast? Besides Williams(good but did he make an allstar team? I can't remember), Stojakob*tch was a choker and Turkoglu took awhile before his talent/skills were even realized.

Good try but you need alot of :help wanted3: to make these hold versus BK.

You can't pick and choose your argument. The question was who drafted better than BK. All these players are at least as good as, if not better, than what BK drafted, and none of these GMs had as many top 10 picks as he did.

[sillent]

Let's take a look at one example as an illustration here. People who are supporting the idea that Knight is a great GM but can't find a job for reasons unknown have ridiculed the idea that Isiah Thomas was a better drafter. I strongly believe Thomas had the better eye for talent. He nailed it at the top of the draft and got a good number of starters and significant contributors later in the draft.

Drafting must be considered relative to the pick that you have. You can't look at a list of players and say "whoever has the best list is the better drafter." With that in mind, here is a comparison:

X = Worthless (or virtually worthless), S = Starter

Billy Knight

#2 Marvin Williams - S

#3 Pau Gasol - S, 2-Time All-Star, 1-Time 3rd Team All-NBA, 1st Team Rookie

#3 Al Horford - S, 1st Team Rookie

#5 Shelden Williams - X

#6 Josh Childress

#11 Acie Law - X

#17 Josh Smith - S

#21 Boris Diaw - S

#31 Salim Stoudamire - X

#33 Solomon Jones - X

#34 Donta Smith - X

#37 Royal Ivey - X

2 All-Star Apperances, 1 Third Team All-NBA, 0 All-NBA Defense, 0 ROY, 2-1st Team Rookie

5 starters in 12 top 40 picks

2 lottery busts

Isiah Thomas > Billy Knight

#2 Marcus Camby -S, Defensive Player of the Year, 4-time 1st/2nd All-NBA Defensive Team, 1st Team Rookie

#7 Damon Stoudamire -S, ROY, 1st Team Rookie

#8 Channing Frye - 1st Team Rookie

#9 Tracy McGrady - S, 7-Time All-Star, 2-Time 1st Team All-NBA, 3-Time 2nd Team All-NBA, 2-Time 3rd Team All-NBA

#20 Renaldo Balkman

#23 Wilson Chandler - S

#29 Mardy Collins - X

#30 David Lee - S

#35 Jimmy King - X

#43 Trevor Ariza, S

7 All-Star Appearances, 7 All-NBA Teams, 4 All-NBA Defense (1 DPOY), 1 ROY, 3-1st Team Rookie

6 starters in 10 top 43 picks

0 lottery busts

Bearing in mind that among these picks Billy Knight had an average draft position of 9.6 for 7 first round picks and Thomas had an average draft position of 16 for 8 first round picks, how in the world did Knight do a better job drafting than Isiah Thomas? Thomas got more starters, blew fewer picks, and had guys (to date) achieve more immediate and long-term success than Isiah's guys despite having much less to work with in terms of draft picks (which was partly his own fault based on other aspects of his performance that don't measure up to his drafting).

The post is not about drafting but about giving thanks to good overall results. Tracy's one of my favorite but he has not even got out the first round. None of these players have won a championship and most of them are not on the team that they were drafted.

Smoove, Horford, and Marvin are. They are still starters and at 23 the jury is still out on them as far as (all-star,defensive player of the yearband etc..)!!

Edited November 11, 2009 by sillent

[dlpin]

The post is not about drafting but about giving thanks to good overall results. Tracy's one of my favorite but he has not even got out the first round. None of these players have won a championship and most of them are not on the team that they were drafted.

Smoove, Horford, and Marvin are. They are still starters and at 23 the jury is still out on them as far as (all-star,defensive player of the yearband etc..)!!

Follow the thread. Sasquatch asked who drafted better than BK. Everyone knows that Isiah is the worst GM in history. But he still drafted better than BK.

[sillent]

Being better at drafting doesn't mean that one is infallible. He was the one who saw the talent when so many other GMs passed. In fact, part of the skills necessary being good at drafting is getting the good value for little investment. The fact that he didn't draft him at 7 is irrelevant, as it just means he thought he could get him lower than 7, and the fact that Rondo was starting over Telfair by the end of the season shows that? As far as Phoenix's owner being cheap, it was an open bid. Anyone else could have bought that pick and selected Rondo.

Exactly!! To the second bold statement what does it show besides he recognized his mistake same as Sheldon/Horford with BK except Ainge was lucky enough to have a choice the same year.

And you keep focusing on just Rondo. Why don't you say anything about Al Jefferson, Kendrick Perkins, Delonte West, Big Baby, Ryan Gomes?

[/qoute]

Serviceable but seriously wouldn't start or even be an option on a team that had better options.

:laughing5: I see plenty of doubt. I love Gerald Green but why is his name not even mentioned? Did Ainge draft him? Are we hiding facts( This goes for everybody posting examples/excuses without covering miscues).

Boston was in the same boat as the Hawks the year before KG and were on the verge of being swept by us if it weren't for the fact that Woody "forgot' we had Smoove on the bench when we had a nice lead and just needed defense stops(Yes the same Smoove that had 10 blocks on the Mavs his rookie year)!!

Sounds complicated and that a lot of good luck was involved.

[sillent]

First of all, I did not say that BK picked bad character guys. I said that, similarly to McHale, he might have put a decent team together, but he has to be judged by how much better it could have been.

And if you think that Josh Smith and Boris Diaw are better than Al Jefferson, Rajon Rondo, Delonte West, Kendrik Perkins and the rest, you are delusional.

Rondo is not a troublemaker. People have claimed that he is sometimes stubborn and not willing to change his game, but then again, the same can be said for Josh Smith.

You are entitled to your opinion. But no one who seriously follows basketball thinks that Boris Diaw is anywhere near the level of a Rondo or an Al Jefferson. Josh Smith is closer, but no one would consider him to be on the level of the 2 either.

And are you seriously saying that Luc Longley/Dennis Rodman(a starter on a championship team who averaged a double double in last year's playoffs), Big Baby (who averaged 16 points a game when replacing KG) Somebody has to make up somewhere for this departure(It is the NBA and your NBA scrubs will destroy a team of the best players most of us know not in the NBA)and Powe are on the same level as guys who never cracked the rotation on the hawks?

And all this ignoring the elephant in the room: Ainge picked those players without having a top 10 pick. BK had 4.

Although these players maybe serviceable we as Hawks fans would have a heart attack if Perkins, Big Baby and Powe were our players to boast. Put Salim(Eddie House), Powe(Solo/West), Big Baby(Sheldon) in the same system at that time and it would probably be the same argument(sad).

[jy23]

Seriously?? In this case you can put Marvin in the same category.

These players are from different eras so how long did this take and where is the championship?

Great but in the same boat as the Hawks and with less players to boast(Yeah they made it to the playoffs but championship came with trading alot of talent via Celtics).

:thumbsupsmileyanim: but they haven't made the playoffs yet!!

Still rebuilding, still no championship!!

Is this the best you got?

Yeah I remember their championship. lol :thumbsdownsmileyanim: Gerald Wallace = Boris Diaw funny their on the same team. Kevin Martin is their current best player to boast? Besides Williams(good but did he make an allstar team? I can't remember), Stojakob*tch was a choker and Turkoglu took awhile before his talent/skills were even realized.

Good try but you need alot of :help wanted3: to make these hold versus BK.

?????????? So much wrong with this post idk where to start.....Gerald Wallace=Diaw........this is just ridiculous...........do u watch basketball? Marvin can't go in the same category as those lakers players bc he was the 2ND PICK!!!!! Bynum was the only guy taken in the top 10 and I know that u can't seriously say that u wouldn't take Bynum over Marv................What does the era have to do with anything? I really just didn't understand that one. The Bulls and Thunder are still rebuilding and don't have any rings, on that u r corect but where are our rings?????????? The question is did those teams draft better than BK and the answer is an unquestionable YES!!!!! Kevin Martin isn't a bad player to boast my friend,,,again u should try watching some games......oh last one, so u wouldn't take Wade over ANY player that we've drafted n Butler is twice the player that Marv is and again I say Marv was a number 2 pick............