Hawks-Magic thread

[Plainview1981]

Roy Hibbert, 7'2" 280 out of Georgetown. I hear they coach good bigmen out there with another one on his way to the league. Don't know, could be wrong *shrugs*.

I've said it plenty of times, teams that beat Orlando play Dwight one on one because they know his offense is not going to beat anyone and stick the shooters that way all those wide open jumpers now become heavily contested jumpers by shooters who can't really create their own shots. Dwight was outplayed by Heywood, Hibbert, and couldn't get anything done against Noah in three of the previous four games of their losing streak. What do those guys have in common? They are all defensive centers that match Dwight's height and have great fundamentals despite being nowhere close to Dwight's athleticism. The other game against Toronto they forced Dwight to guard the perimeter where he is a sieve and beat him with their offense.

Our team is a bad matchup against Orlando because one, a PF can't really check Dwight consistently and two, our scheme is to sag the paint regardless to help out. The shooters were having their way last night because we went under every screen, worried about a pass to the inside rather than chasing players that damn near average 90% of their offense off of jumpshots. Every game is like this and considering our philosophy is playing directly into their team's strength it's no wonder why it seems like Orlando hits every shot against us, not hard when you are left wide open on your sweet spot. Honestly it's the scheme and Woody has to take full blame on this because with Dwight out of the game we were still sagging down on Gortat and letting the shooters get their shots.

Our offensive ineptitude is one thing against the Magic but the defense is where Woody needs to take his head out of his *ss. After 5 straight losses of running the same strategy you have to at least tweak the gameplan. If you are so worried about Al getting manhandled by Dwight in the post well you suck it up and you tell either Josh or Al to suck it up also and say they will not be starting this particular game so we can get either Collins or Zaza into the lineup to play him one on one while we stay on the shooters. We match up at every other position against the Magic unlike Boston in the playoffs last year that had no answer for Rashard without KG and then Cleveland that had mismatches all across their frontcourt. Those teams made moves with Orlando in mind for the playoffs by adding more perimeter defenders and one on one post defenders, we did too to a lesser extent but our coach is too brainless/gun shy/unaware to play the matchup rather than believing his scheme can defeat all.

The Suns beat Orlando with Channing Frye at center.... He might be on the softest starting "big men" in the league.

The real reason this team struggles against Orlando is because they had a bad game or two against them and lost confidence that they could beat them. A scheme is worth nothing without effort.... And the Hawks quit very early in that game. I mean, it's obvious Woodson hasn't changed what hasn't worked. But I don't know if that justifies getting blown out 5 times in a row. Even the undersized Knicks get a better effort against Orlando... Basically every team in the league gives Orlando a bigger fight than this team does. You can say it's because of this center or that center... But the fact is that The Hawks probably play Orlando worse than any other team in the league. Bad scheme or not, the Hawks still lack mental toughness.

Every team has somebody that don't match up well against... That doesn't mean they get blown out by them 5 times in a row. 5 TIMES. A bad scheme isn't an excuse for lack of effort. The effort must improve.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Hotlanta1981

[MaceCase]

The Suns beat Orlando with Channing Frye at center.... He might be on the softest starting "big men" in the league.

The real reason this team struggles against Orlando is because they had a bad game or two against them and lost confidence that they could beat them. A scheme is worth nothing without effort.... And the Hawks quit very early in that game. I mean, it's obvious Woodson hasn't changed what hasn't worked. But I don't know if that justifies getting blown out 5 times in a row. Even the undersized Knicks get a better effort against Orlando... Basically every team in the league gives Orlando a bigger fight than this team does. You can say it's because of this center or that center... But the fact is that The Hawks probably play Orlando worse than any other team in the league. Bad scheme or not, the Hawks still lack mental toughness.

Every team has somebody that don't match up well against... That doesn't mean they get blown out by them 5 times in a row.

You don't comprehend much of what you read do you? You just have your talking point at the ready and then form a subjective observation to back it up.

The other game against Toronto they forced Dwight to guard the perimeter where he is a sieve and beat him with their offense.

What do Frye and and Bargnani have in common. What do Toronto and Phoenix have in common? Now what part of that quote did you misunderstand?

My post was clearly about matchup and scheme being our weakness against the Magic. I don't know where the *beep* you can come off and say that this team has played "tough" in our scheme throughout the season for our numerous wins yet we turn all that off not even 24 hours later in Orlando. We are a bad perimeter defensive team not because of Mike Bibby alone but because the scheme is to sag the paint to deny penetration and double team any post feed. What does that do? It means players are left open on the perimeter.

Now, against a team that sports 4 shooters on the floor at all times and a roster that has 7 players all shooting above the league average in 3 pointers with another two (Carter, Barnes) shooting well below their career averages, tell me why that would be a problem to a scheme which dictates allowing "lower" percentage jumpshots while defending the high percentage layups?

All I suggested we need to do is play the post one on one and defend the perimeter. If Woody is afraid Al can't handle that matchup alone and is too valuable to be in foul trouble thus the need for the scheme, well then he should know he has 18 fouls worth of 6'11" 260 pounders sitting on the bench. We can live with Howard at the FT line and it's not as if they will manage to take away all if any of Al's or Josh's 34 minutes at both C/PF position. Live and die with Howard trying to bully a guy just as big as him and force his teammates to create their own shots off the dribble. For a game where their best one on one player was out and you just saw a blueprint of 4 straight centers that are not world beaters themselves limit Howard, Woody's choice is to still protect the paint while allowing shooters to run free?

It's their scheme vs. our scheme period, Hotlanta. I know you hate football but others may understand this analogy. Our defensive scheme is akin to playing 8 in the box against their vertical offense. We have all our guys looking for run while their receivers are off running behind the secondary.

[jy23]

You don't comprehend much of what you read do you? You just have your talking point at the ready and then form a subjective observation to back it up.

What do Frye and and Bargnani have in common. What do Toronto and Phoenix have in common? Now what part of that quote did you misunderstand?

My post was clearly about matchup and scheme being our weakness against the Magic. I don't know where the *beep* you can come off and say that this team has played "tough" in our scheme throughout the season for our numerous wins yet we turn all that off not even 24 hours later in Orlando. We are a bad perimeter defensive team not because of Mike Bibby alone but because the scheme is to sag the paint to deny penetration and double team any post feed. What does that do? It means players are left open on the perimeter.

Now, against a team that sports 4 shooters on the floor at all times and a roster that has 7 players all shooting above the league average in 3 pointers with another two (Carter, Barnes) shooting well below their career averages, tell me why that would be a problem to a scheme which dictates allowing "lower" percentage jumpshots while defending the high percentage layups?

All I suggested we need to do is play the post one on one and defend the perimeter. If Woody is afraid Al can't handle that matchup alone and is too valuable to be in foul trouble thus the need for the scheme, well then he should know he has 18 fouls worth of 6'11" 260 pounders sitting on the bench. We can live with Howard at the FT line and it's not as if they will manage to take away all if any of Al's or Josh's 34 minutes at both C/PF position. Live and die with Howard trying to bully a guy just as big as him and force his teammates to create their own shots off the dribble. For a game where their best one on one player was out and you just saw a blueprint of 4 straight centers that are not world beaters themselves limit Howard, Woody's choice is to still protect the paint while allowing shooters to run free?

It's their scheme vs. our scheme period, Hotlanta. I know you hate football but others may understand this analogy. Our defensive scheme is akin to playing 8 in the box against their vertical offense. We have all our guys looking for run while their receivers are off running behind the secondary.

Damn good post, I may have to take the entire text of this post n use it in my next attempt to prove this exact point to my hawk hating friends, don't mind do you? Lol

[Buzzard]

Roy Hibbert, 7'2" 280 out of Georgetown. I hear they coach good bigmen out there with another one on his way to the league. Don't know, could be wrong *shrugs*.

I've said it plenty of times, teams that beat Orlando play Dwight one on one because they know his offense is not going to beat anyone and stick the shooters that way all those wide open jumpers now become heavily contested jumpers by shooters who can't really create their own shots. Dwight was outplayed by Heywood, Hibbert, and couldn't get anything done against Noah in three of the previous four games of their losing streak. What do those guys have in common? They are all defensive centers that match Dwight's height and have great fundamentals despite being nowhere close to Dwight's athleticism. The other game against Toronto they forced Dwight to guard the perimeter where he is a sieve and beat him with their offense.

Our team is a bad matchup against Orlando because one, a PF can't really check Dwight consistently and two, our scheme is to sag the paint regardless to help out. The shooters were having their way last night because we went under every screen, worried about a pass to the inside rather than chasing players that damn near average 90% of their offense off of jumpshots. Every game is like this and considering our philosophy is playing directly into their team's strength it's no wonder why it seems like Orlando hits every shot against us, not hard when you are left wide open on your sweet spot. Honestly it's the scheme and Woody has to take full blame on this because with Dwight out of the game we were still sagging down on Gortat and letting the shooters get their shots.

Our offensive ineptitude is one thing against the Magic but the defense is where Woody needs to take his head out of his *ss. After 5 straight losses of running the same strategy you have to at least tweak the gameplan. If you are so worried about Al getting manhandled by Dwight in the post well you suck it up and you tell either Josh or Al to suck it up also and say they will not be starting this particular game so we can get either Collins or Zaza into the lineup to play him one on one while we stay on the shooters. We match up at every other position against the Magic unlike Boston in the playoffs last year that had no answer for Rashard without KG and then Cleveland that had mismatches all across their frontcourt. Those teams made moves with Orlando in mind for the playoffs by adding more perimeter defenders and one on one post defenders, we did too to a lesser extent but our coach is too brainless/gun shy/unaware to play the matchup rather than believing his scheme can defeat all.

I agree with a lot of your post from a defensive standpoint; but offensively we do not perform anywhere near as well against the Magic as these two teams did on the offensive end. And it does appear they played Howard harder when it comes to fouls. We sent Howard to the line just 6 times, the Raps sent him to the line 11 times, and the Suns sent him 17 times.

Toronto shot 54% from the field and even though they limited Orlando to only 42% shooting, they won this game by just 5 pts. Orlandos frontline of Howard, Lewis, and Barnes had 50 pts betweem them on 16 of 28 shooting. Torontos frontline kept them in this game as they had 53 pts between Turk 17pts , Bosh 18 pts , and Bargnani 18pts. So yes the perimeter D worked but it was against the Magic bench.

The reserves shot Orlando out of the Raps game as the Magic starters were a combined 24 for 47. Redick was the biggest offender off the bench as he went 5 for 14. Toronto also had 10 offensive rebounds to Orlandos 2.

In the Phoenix game the Suns shot almost 48% and limited Orlando to 42% and again it was a close game decided by 3pts. The Suns frontline scored 45 pts ( Stoudamire 28 pts) to the Magics 57; but this time it was the backcourt of Nash and Richardson that outscored Jason Williams, Anthony Johnson, and Vince Carter 36 to 18.

I have no doubts we need to play better D against Orlando; but there is also no way in hell we will ever beat them if our starters plus sixth man combine to shoot 40% or less from the field. Even when Orlando shoots 42% from the field, the Suns had to shoot 48%; and in the Toronto game, the Raps had to shoot 54%. Orlando really is that good; and it will take an outsanding game on both ends of the floor to make up for these 25 to 30pt thrashings they are handing us.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Buzzard

[MaceCase]

I agree with a lot of your post from a defensive standpoint; but offensively we do not perform anywhere near as well against the Magic as these two teams did on the offensive end. And it does appear they played Howard harder when it comes to fouls. We sent Howard to the line just 6 times, the Raps sent him to the line 11 times, and the Suns sent him 17 times.

Toronto shot 54% from the field and even though they limited Orlando to only 42% shooting, they won this game by just 5 pts. Orlandos frontline of Howard, Lewis, and Barnes had 50 pts betweem them on 16 of 28 shooting. Torontos frontline kept them in this game as they had 53 pts between Turk 17pts , Bosh 18 pts , and Bargnani 18pts. So yes the perimeter D worked but it was against the Magic bench.

The reserves shot Orlando out of the Raps game as the Magic starters were a combined 24 for 47. Redick was the biggest offender off the bench as he went 5 for 14. Toronto also had 10 offensive rebounds to Orlandos 2.

In the Phoenix game the Suns shot almost 48% and limited Orlando to 42% and again it was a close game decided by 3pts. The Suns frontline scored 45 pts ( Stoudamire 28 pts) to the Magics 57; but this time it was the backcourt of Nash and Richardson that outscored Jason Williams, Anthony Johnson, and Vince Carter 36 to 18.

I have no doubts we need to play better D against Orlando; but there is also no way in hell we will ever beat them if our starters plus sixth man combine to shoot 40% or less from the field. Even when Orlando shoots 42% from the field, the Suns had to shoot 48%; and in the Toronto game, the Raps had to shoot 54%. Orlando really is that good; and it will take an outsanding game on both ends of the floor to make up for these 25 to 30pt thrashings they are handing us.

Well one aspect at a time Buzz. Simply tweaking our defensive scheme can easily shave 15 points off of these 30 point blowouts whereas the offense needs a whole offseason to adjust outside of us just making our shots. Who's to say that Woody's philosophy of "defense leads to offense" wouldn't actually be better for it considering I assume players would play smarter and look for higher percentage shots knowing that they are at least within striking distance as opposed to trying to make up a 30 point deficit by chucking up quick shots? Phoenix and Toronto let their offense beat Howard by taking him out of his comfort zone, basically breaking down the Magic's defensive scheme. Chicago, Indy and Washington let Howard try to beat their man post defense and then had their Centers dish it right back to him or, in the case of the Chicago game, have Rose challenge him off the drive.

Orlando is a perfect storm against us, we've grinded out plenty of games where our offense has been atrocious with the help of our defense and rebounding but against them we don't even allow ourselves that chance. It's not hard to imagine how 6 point leads balloon out to 15+ point swings in mere seconds when we are allowing adept jumpshooters wide open looks from 3, shooting in rhythm. Al played a man's game up against Howard both defensively and offensively but we obviously shy away from that even without the fact we needed quick points to catch up. Al scored efficiently, frustrated Howard some even (he got a technical) but all that gets taken away when the scheme lets a team shoot 53% from 16-23 feet and then 12 for 28 from three.

[spotatl]

I don't care if the other team can exploit a matchup at center as long as I can exploit it equally on the other side. The problem is that the Magic create matchup problems for the Hawks but the Hawks can't exploit them on the other side. Howard is a nightmare matchup for Horford but Horford is not at all a problem for Howard. Rashard lewis can drag Josh Smith to the perimeter which hurts the Hawks badly but Josh Smith really can't exploit Rashard Lewis on the other side. Bibby has a much tougher time guarding Jameer Nelson than the reverse. And all of that means that the Hawks have to help earlier on defense which just opens up everything for the rest of the team.

I do wish the Hawks had actually signed David Andersen so they could have a big to step outside. It would help so much against teams like Orlando.

Edited January 11, 2010 by spotatl

[Plainview1981]

When Lo was guarding him a few years ago and playing him tough, the Hawks were playing the Magic a lot better. Instead, the Hawks don't put fourth the effort to make Howard work. Double team or not, he can have his way because they don't put the effort in to be tough with him.

My post was clearly about matchup and scheme being our weakness against the Magic. I don't know where the *beep* you can come off and say that this team has played "tough" in our scheme throughout the season for our numerous wins yet we turn all that off not even 24 hours later in Orlando. We are a bad perimeter defensive team not because of Mike Bibby alone but because the scheme is to sag the paint to deny penetration and double team any post feed. What does that do? It means players are left open on the perimeter.

They've got BLOWN OUT by the same team FIVE times in a row. There is not one legit excuse for that. That type of thing doesn't happen with anyone else. I mean, if your players don't match up you will probably lose most games against that team. But the EFFORTS alone have been horrible EFFORTS. The lack of toughness that this team often plays with is sickening. When players get Hot, the Hawks players just let them have their way instead of giving the hard fouls or trying to man up. That's what gets on my nerves.

We both realize that the game plan is bad, but the difference is I still believe the players should be able to man up and still give efforts while you seem to believe a bad scheme is an excuse for lack of effort from the players. If I'm wrong on that, tell me so. But if the Hawks played harder against Dwight they would have a bit more success even with the bad scheme.

[Plainview1981]

I agree with a lot of your post from a defensive standpoint; but offensively we do not perform anywhere near as well against the Magic as these two teams did on the offensive end. And it does appear they played Howard harder when it comes to fouls. We sent Howard to the line just 6 times, the Raps sent him to the line 11 times, and the Suns sent him 17 times.

Toronto shot 54% from the field and even though they limited Orlando to only 42% shooting, they won this game by just 5 pts. Orlandos frontline of Howard, Lewis, and Barnes had 50 pts betweem them on 16 of 28 shooting. Torontos frontline kept them in this game as they had 53 pts between Turk 17pts , Bosh 18 pts , and Bargnani 18pts. So yes the perimeter D worked but it was against the Magic bench.

The reserves shot Orlando out of the Raps game as the Magic starters were a combined 24 for 47. Redick was the biggest offender off the bench as he went 5 for 14. Toronto also had 10 offensive rebounds to Orlandos 2.

In the Phoenix game the Suns shot almost 48% and limited Orlando to 42% and again it was a close game decided by 3pts. The Suns frontline scored 45 pts ( Stoudamire 28 pts) to the Magics 57; but this time it was the backcourt of Nash and Richardson that outscored Jason Williams, Anthony Johnson, and Vince Carter 36 to 18.

I have no doubts we need to play better D against Orlando; but there is also no way in hell we will ever beat them if our starters plus sixth man combine to shoot 40% or less from the field. Even when Orlando shoots 42% from the field, the Suns had to shoot 48%; and in the Toronto game, the Raps had to shoot 54%. Orlando really is that good; and it will take an outsanding game on both ends of the floor to make up for these 25 to 30pt thrashings they are handing us.

The harder fouls. Yes. The effort and toughness to make Howard work for what he gets is something I want to see. If you play Howard soft, it's tough to beat them no matter what scheme you have. That's what I'm saying. I'm sick of watching a guy get hot and have his way with this team with the team doing nothing to stop him. It don't take a 7'2 center to give a player a hard foul. If you play Howard one on one and still play him soft he will still kill you. Yes, it's Woody's fault too for not playing the big slob more. That was the purpose of signing him in the first place I thought. But Orlando is going to beat this team until they start showing toughness.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Hotlanta1981