What happens when you die?

[DJlaysitup]

"Let me begin by saying that I have no clue what happens after death...but I do know it's not simply like a lightbulb slowly dimming.

When I was 9 years old I had a terrible, terrifying nightmare. My father shook me hard to wake me up. I was being buried alive. He then walked me around the house and showed me that the pieces of furniture were not in fact piles of mud. I had to touch them all to be sure. I was totally spooked.

Before that and since I have never had what one would call a nightmare. Some years ago I found out what caused it. It was the Aberfan mine disaster....where many children were burried alive in Wales by a mudslide in their school. I could go into more detail, but you will either believe me or you won't, and I really don't much care either way. Over recent years I found that many people had this type of experience due to this disaster. So if the children were simply passing away and that was it, why would there be such a burst of psychic energy that I, as a 9 year old kid, would receive it in my sleep all the way across the ocean in Illinois?

Google Aberfan mine disaster for more info if you wish. There are some interesting sites on the web.

The "spirit" goes somewhere...I know not where...but t it goes somewhere." JMHO.

P.S. - the best story I have heard about it was from a person who actually went through a death experince and was revived. He said it was like the old joke where a caterpillar is crawling around with another caterpillar friend and suddenly a shadow comes across them. It is the shadow of a butterfly. The one caterpillar looks over at the other and says "they'll never get me up in one of those things"

Of course neither realize that they will become one. :kickcan:

Edited February 11, 2011 by DJlaysitup

[Dragitoff]

I know this is part of the age-old question of what is the meaning of life? If there's no consequence for our actions in this life, why not live for ourselves. In hopes this doesn't push this topic into the politics and religion section, I'll say my opinion. I'm a born-again Christian so I ultimately believe you go to either hell or heaven. I believe you only get to heaven by accepting the Lord, Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour. Not the deeds you do or how good of a person you are. Yes, when He becomes part of your life, you desire to do those things, but ultimately it's the total submission to Him and "dying to ourselves" that gets us into Heaven. Many groups argue over even the Biblical concept of what happens to us when we die, but I'm in the school of thought that our souls leave our shell (or body) immediately upon death to face judgement. God will either tell us "Well done my good and faithful servant" or "Depart from me, I never knew you". That's the final judgement on where we'll be spending eternity.

Christians are often criticized for this belief by non-believers, but my belief is if following Christ makes me want to live a better life, to be more loving, more forgiving, more kind, and more compassionate to the rest of the world, what is it hurting? I've seen the radical changes God has made in my own personal life. I've been delivered from drugs, alchohol, and numerous other addictions when nothing else worked. There's something to it for me!

Some against Christianity say that if God loves everyone so much, why do people have to die and be punished? Why do children die? Why do bad things happen in this world? That's a valid question especially if it's your life that is directly impacted. The unfortunate truth is because of the fall of man in the garden of Eden, Satan was given dominion over this world for a time. Man was given free-will to make their own decisions. Sometimes we choose right. Sometimes we choose wrong, but because of Adam's choices, there are now penalties to pay for sin because we've allowed evil and sin to become part of the world God designed for us to live in fellowship with Him. Death is one of those penalties. The Bible says, "The wages of sin is death". Even good people sin, and even good people have to die. Where they spend eternity is their choice based on their decision to accept Jesus Christ or reject Him.

I've honestly not studied alot of other religions or other beliefs. My mother and step-father both have doctrines in theology, so they've studied other religions extensively. We talked alot about the differences and similarities from one religion or even denominations within the same religions. Most of them to agree there are penalties for living selfishly and not loving others. Ultimately, none of us will ever know what happens when we die until that time comes. I choose to do my best to live in a way that will exemplify the ulitmate love and mercy of a truly loving God. I once heard someone say all headstones have 2 things in common. They all have a date where the person was born and a date where a person died. Those 2 things are irrelevant. It's the "dash" that separates the 2 that's important. What we do between those dates is what we'll be remembered for. Make it count for something good.

[DJlaysitup]

I know this is part of the age-old question of what is the meaning of life? If there's no consequence for our actions in this life, why not live for ourselves. In hopes this doesn't push this topic into the politics and religion section, I'll say my opinion. I'm a born-again Christian so I ultimately believe you go to either hell or heaven....

That is an EXTREMELY good point Dragitoff, and something I have struggled with as an Agnostic.

(note: Agnostic does not mean that you believe one way or the other...only that you feel you don't have the knowledge to know)

If there were no consequences in an afterlife (which I know exists) what would there be to separate a decent guy like me and you from a serial killer? Doesn't seem quite fair that I should have to spend eternity with those hideous and terrible folks.

I personally think much of the Bible is made up stories by various authors. I don't really believe in the Biblical "heaven or hell" ...but one HAS to believe that good works will receive good consequences in the afterlife...and..at least to some degree, bad works also receive bad consequences.

JMHO.

Edited February 26, 2011 by DJlaysitup

[Dragitoff]

That is an EXTREMELY good point Dragitoff, and something I have struggled with as an Agnostic.

(note: Agnostic does not mean that you believe one way or the other...only that you feel you don't have the knowledge to know)

If there were no consequences in an afterlife (which I know exists) what would there be to separate a decent guy like me and you from a serial killer? Doesn't seem quite fair that I should have to spend eternity with those hideous and terrible folks.

I personally think much of the Bible is made up stories by various authors. I don't really believe in the Biblical "heaven or hell" ...but one HAS to believe that good works will receive good consequences in the afterlife...and..at least to some degree, bad works also receive bad consequences.

JMHO.

It's good we at least agree there are consequences for this life that affect the next. It's too often people feel they can do as they like in this life with no consequences. IMO, I think it's more of a justification for the wrong they want to do now. There are many who also share your belief of the stories in the Bible. Of course, there are many historical facts that prove many of the stories in the Bible. A with anything, Christianity revolves alot around faith. People who don't believe in the Bible have "faith" that it's not true. LIkewise for those who do. All I know for sure is I've seen a change in my life from before I became a Christian. The addictions were unshakeable, my marriage had trouble, and my attitude towards life in general was horrible. I grew up in church, but never really applied what was being sad mostly because I disagreed with the way it was being said. We started going to a church where the pastor was a recovered alchoholic, drug addict, adulterer, and used to be a famous night-club musician. When I heard the way he described God, it was not this God perched on a cloud with a lightning bolt in hand waiting to strike down everyone who slipped up and made a mistake. It was a God of love and forgiveness and mercy.

Once I realized God LOVES us and wants good things for us, it opened my eyes to a new way of life. As the Bible says, "life more abundantly". I choose to believe the Bible because I see the change in my life from the lessons I've learned from it. In my heart, I HAVE to believe it's divinely inspired because I don't think that many different people could write something so absolutely life-changing; however I don't try to force-feed my beliefs to anyone. I try to let my life be the witness for me.

[AHF]

People can tend to believe that it is a good thing to promote a better life in this world and for our children as well without any consideration of consequences in the after-life. I know athiests and agnostics who have high personal standards of morality because they think the world will be a better place if people treat eachother decently. (Likewise, I have seen some attrocious behavior from some who consider themselves believes who seemed to think that by asking for forgiveness it gave them a license to do things that I would consider immoral and/or selfish.)

A lot of subjugation of lower classes was pushed historically by the idea that these people would receive their reward in heaven while those in power kept them down on earth.

CS Lewis writes a very interesting discussion on this in Mere Christianity where he posits that all people (with the exceptions of the insane, etc.) share a common sense of decency that is seen in children, adults, and across different cultures - such as an easy example of the idea that lying to someone to get what you want is considered a bad thing in every culture. It is part of his argument for why God exists but I think it plays into this discussion some as well.

[Dragitoff]

People can tend to believe that it is a good thing to promote a better life in this world and for our children as well without any consideration of consequences in the after-life. I know athiests and agnostics who have high personal standards of morality because they think the world will be a better place if people treat eachother decently. (Likewise, I have seen some attrocious behavior from some who consider themselves believes who seemed to think that by asking for forgiveness it gave them a license to do things that I would consider immoral and/or selfish.)

A lot of subjugation of lower classes was pushed historically by the idea that these people would receive their reward in heaven while those in power kept them down on earth.

CS Lewis writes a very interesting discussion on this in Mere Christianity where he posits that all people (with the exceptions of the insane, etc.) share a common sense of decency that is seen in children, adults, and across different cultures - such as an easy example of the idea that lying to someone to get what you want is considered a bad thing in every culture. It is part of his argument for why God exists but I think it plays into this discussion some as well.

I agree with what you're saying. As a born-again believer, it's embarrasing how many believe being a Christianity gives you a "get out of jail free card" just because of grace. That's why the modern church has such a black eye to many. There's a saying in the church. If you live like the world, you're just like the world. The Bible tells us we may be in this world, but we're not to be of this world" basically meaning, we can't separate ourselves from the evil that's in this world and live in some kind of bubble, but that doesn't mean we have to join in and be a contributing factor. So many Christians believe they can shelter themselves and their children from the evil in this world, and as you said, "suffer now" to reap heavenly rewards; however that's not what God has in store for His children IMO.

There are indeed, so many "non-believers" who live with a higher moral standard than many church-goers. I think so much of that is directly related to many seeking "religion" for the mere fact of what I affectionately call "fire insurance". There's no personal relationship with Jesus. Salvation is merely viewed as a way to save themselves from eternal damnation in hell. I disagree with many teachings of churches (even some of my own church's teachings), but ultimately I agree we must all treat each other with love and compassion. There's so much hate and anger and disappointment in the world. We don't need to add more on it. It's amazing living in the south how many churches still openly show racism and sexism. We are ALL God's children regardless of gender, color, nationality, yet some feel they are better than others and spew that venom even from the pulpits. It's a sad state honestly and I hate that all Christians get perceived as that way by the masses. I think if the church generally showed Christ's love, we'd see more people trusting and believing in the teachings of the church. As the saying goes, we need to practice what we preach.

[tremor]

I'd like to go back to original topic, which is what happens, when we die.

Out of body and near death experiences are strong arguments for afterlife. Atheists waive them off claiming that if you take some kind of hallucinogenic substances you get the same or very similar results. But that's simply not the case. Have you ever heard about a man who drastically changed his life after getting high one time? Howard Storm for example, after having NDE (he was technically dead for three hours), changed so much that his wife wanted a divorce because she couldn't recognize him, he seemed to be a strange person to her.

Do people, after getting high, say that what they experienced is the real world, something deeper and truer than this reality? No, and that's what you'll hear from people after NDEs. They're deeply convinced that this place is only a shadow of what's "out there".

Something worth to think about for a while.

[AHF]

This is interesting:

Studies by Parnia and other researchers show that between 10 and 20 percent of who are resuscitated from cardiac arrest had a near-death experience (NDE). Various other studies show the frequency of near-death experience to be between 4 and 18 percent. The experience is typically described as a progression of stages. First, the person has a sense of peace, then a sense of separation from the body. The person then enters into darkness, and sees a bright light like the end of a tunnel. Finally, the person enters the light and interacts with an entity, described as God, Allah, or simply a universal cosmic force.

During the time that people report the feeling of detachment from their physical body, or an out-of-body-experience, they report a perception of floating above their body, or floating near the ceiling in the room where the experience occurs. This aspect of the experience plays an important role in the study.

The Human Consciousness Project sets out to explore the nature of human consciousness and the brain. The first step of the project is the "Awareness During Resuscitation" study, a collaboration among more than 25 medical centers throughout the United States, Canada, and Europe.

With the expectation of recruiting 1,500 patients during a 36-month time frame, the study will examine everything that happens to the human brain during cardiac arrest, from oxygen levels to the ability to recall images. The participating hospitals will be outfitted with equipment to monitor any patient who goes into cardiac arrest. While the person is in arrest, resulting in a flat line, doctors will monitor oxygen levels and blood flow into the brain. If patients consent to additional testing after recovery, they will be asked to recall any memories they can from the time while they were in cardiac arrest. Regardless of the recollection, each experience is useful to the study. "If they have no memories, they're useful because we'll use them as a control group," says Dr. Sam Parnia, director of the Human Consciousness Project and leader of the study.

But the most intriguing aspect of the study is its attempt to study consciousness during clinical death. According to Parnia, the science of these "consciousness events" may be somewhat similar to the relation between Newtonian physics and quantum physics. Scientists once believed that Newtonian physics could answer all the questions in the universe. When they ventured into the sub-atomic realm, though, Newtonian physics no longer applied. But quantum physics did. Similarly, the near-death experience could be another state of consciousness with a different set of rules than what we currently understand, and beyond the limits of what current scientific methods can explain.

The initial phase of the study will outfit participating rooms with shelves placed high up on the wall. On the top of each shelf will be a picture, visible only from the ceiling. Doctors will test whether patients who report a near-death experience are able to recall the image. If patients -- as few as four or five -- can positively recall these static images, then the study will move on: randomly generated images will be projected onto the shelves, which will further test the ability of the test subject to recall images. If no patients can recall the static images, the study can conclude that the floating effect is a trick of the mind.

According to Parnia, the study is important for two reasons. First, published studies have shown that people who undergo cardiac arrest can recall specific memories and demonstrate consciousness. Second, during cardiac arrest, there is no measurable brain activity. "If you combine these two sets of data together, it indicates a need to do a large study to determine: is this real or not? Can this really be going on?"

Still, the explanation behind these events can be attributed to the complexity of the human mind, not, as some believe, a universal spiritual experience, or even a new realm of science.

Last year, a study by Dr. Kevin Nelson, professor of neurology at the University of Kentucky's College of Medicine, found that people who have reported prior visual or auditory hallucinations in the transition between sleep and wakefulness -- a phenomenon known as REM intrusion -- may be more likely to report a near-death experience.

"There's a very tiny switch deep in the brain stem, near our centers that control our heart and our breathing. That switch brings us either into wakefulness or REM sleep," explains Nelson. "It's either in one direction or another, either in REM or in wakefulness. Sometimes that switch goes haywire and blends the two."

When these states of consciousness blend together, people can have the feeling of an out-of-body experience. The fact that people who have experienced REM intrusion are more likely to have a near-death experience points to a brain glitch as the cause. However, it is unknown whether a near-death experience is what makes the brain's "switch" go haywire, or if the near-death experience simply reveals a pre-existing abnormality.

While many questions still remain about the nature of human consciousness, the first step is to determine whether, during a near-death experience, the subject is in a state of consciousness despite being clinically dead.

"We sometimes think that, obviously, when your heart stops beating, your consciousness is also gone," says Parnia. "We have no evidence, we have no studies that tell us at what point does the human consciousness and mind cease functioning during clinical death. Is it at the moment the heart stops beating? Is it the first few seconds? The first few minutes? Is it the first few hours? We have no idea."

Despite the best efforts of science, the organ inside our skulls still resists giving up its mysteries. "We will never fully comprehend the brain." says Nelson.

http://www.popsci.com/sam-barrett/article/2008-10/first-few-minutes-after-death?page=1

Edited March 1, 2011 by AHF

[tremor]

A similar research was done in Netherlands ten years ago: Medical Evidence for NDEs.

The article basically states that study confirmed that a man can be conscious even when brain is not functioning.

[Dragitoff]

The article basically states that study confirmed that a man can be conscious even when brain is not functioning.

That's obvious. Look at any Knicks fan......hardee har har har. Seriously. It's an interesting study.

[AHF]

A similar research was done in Netherlands ten years ago: Medical Evidence for NDEs.

The article basically states that study confirmed that a man can be conscious even when brain is not functioning.

From a scan of both articles, it looks like the difference with the newer study is the element of placing the images around the patients so that you can test whether the memories tie out to the actual surroundings. The first study looks like it was assessing and cataloging what the patients said they remembered without any way to test the validity of those memories.

In both cases, it is very interesting stuff and strikes me as the kind of science that is in its infancy and subject to dramatic changes in the future. Everyone seems to agree that the NDEs are something consistently experienced by almost 20% of people but no one has offered any ability to do more than theorize about the cause or opine about the reliability of the content of those memories.

[tremor]

From a scan of both articles, it looks like the difference with the newer study is the element of placing the images around the patients so that you can test whether the memories tie out to the actual surroundings. The first study looks like it was assessing and cataloging what the patients said they remembered without any way to test the validity of those memories.

In both cases, it is very interesting stuff and strikes me as the kind of science that is in its infancy and subject to dramatic changes in the future. Everyone seems to agree that the NDEs are something consistently experienced by almost 20% of people but no one has offered any ability to do more than theorize about the cause or opine about the reliability of the content of those memories.

I read a study that listed several cases when patients after NDEs were aware of things they couldn't have known even when they were conscious and had eyes open. TBH I thought is was the one I gave a link to, but it's not. So either the details about it were in the link that is on the top of the article and is not working anymore, or simply it was different one (in that case I don't have a link to it), which is a shame.

[HawkItus]

I've always thought birth has an uncanny tie in to what people experience in a NDE. The darkness surrounding and then the light? Imagine that we have our birth experience deep with in the recesses of our minds. The God figure could very well be a doctor or medical attendant etc. The bible says a man dies, but once and then the judgment. In a since I think it would be cheating to have certain individuals have life changing experience of meeting God and then return. There is no faith involved with that. Now before someone mentions Isiah's, Daniels, Paul's and John's visions these happened in much different times and these weren't your everyday person.

I think after death one loses the mental abilities we survive by here on earth. How else would a mentally disabled person progress to the after life? How would reason be accounted for in a place that no longer requires the boundaries of reason? How could one progress beyond memories of those who are left behind, if we are bound to thought? To me it's death is like completely separating an electronic item from its energy source. Yes you can re-attach the battery, but you lose the immediate function and memory.

[Dragitoff]

I must admit, that I'm honestly VERY skeptical of all NDE claims because I'm reminded of a story in the Bible. There was a man who died and was facing judgement. He begged God to let him go back and to tell his family that God's judgement was real and to turn from their evil ways. God basically replied, if they can't believe in me with all the signs I've given them already, they won't believe it coming from you even in a resurrected form.

[tremor]

I must admit, that I'm honestly VERY skeptical of all NDE claims because I'm reminded of a story in the Bible. There was a man who died and was facing judgement. He begged God to let him go back and to tell his family that God's judgement was real and to turn from their evil ways. God basically replied, if they can't believe in me with all the signs I've given them already, they won't believe it coming from you even in a resurrected form.

How that makes you skeptical about NDEs? This is allegoric prophesy about Jesus resurrection.

Jesus resurrected himself some people, Lazarus including.

[tremor]

I've always thought birth has an uncanny tie in to what people experience in a NDE. The darkness surrounding and then the light? Imagine that we have our birth experience deep with in the recesses of our minds. The God figure could very well be a doctor or medical attendant etc.

That's interesting hypothesis but it doesn't fit well with what people after NDEs actually say. They don't talk about some blurred vision but a sharp, very concrete but hard to describe experience. And some of them talked to Jesus/angels/whoever they think they saw. They remember it well. Watch some interviews on YT, Howard Storm is an interesting example.

The bible says a man dies, but once and then the judgment. In a since I think it would be cheating to have certain individuals have life changing experience of meeting God and then return. There is no faith involved with that.

People will be judged according to what they were given. How about those who saw Jesus, heard Him speaking and saw His deeds? Not much room for faith there. Yet still Judas betrayed. Even Apostles still had to make choices, follow what they thought was good and, as human beings, made many mistakes. Being convinced what's right and what's wrong doesn't make your life an easy walk.

[HawkItus]

I'd like to go back to original topic, which is what happens, when we die.

Out of body and near death experiences are strong arguments for afterlife. Atheists waive them off claiming that if you take some kind of hallucinogenic substances you get the same or very similar results. But that's simply not the case. Have you ever heard about a man who drastically changed his life after getting high one time? Howard Storm for example, after having NDE (he was technically dead for three hours), changed so much that his wife wanted a divorce because she couldn't recognize him, he seemed to be a strange person to her.

Do people, after getting high, say that what they experienced is the real world, something deeper and truer than this reality? No, and that's what you'll hear from people after NDEs. They're deeply convinced that this place is only a shadow of what's "out there".

Something worth to think about for a while.

The very link you pointed to says he was never medically near death? Where are you getting the 3 hours from?

[HawkItus]

That's interesting hypothesis but it doesn't fit well with what people after NDEs actually say. They don't talk about some blurred vision but a sharp, very concrete but hard to describe experience. And some of them talked to Jesus/angels/whoever they think they saw. They remember it well. Watch some interviews on YT, Howard Storm is an interesting example.

People will be judged according to what they were given. How about those who saw Jesus, heard Him speaking and saw His deeds? Not much room for faith there. Yet still Judas betrayed. Even Apostles still had to make choices, follow what they thought was good and, as human beings, made many mistakes. Being convinced what's right and what's wrong doesn't make your life an easy walk.

Even those who experienced Jesus had to believe he rose from the dead. As for the NDE's and conversations again how many countless conversation on Tv or around others did we experience as babies that lack context are still in our memory.. I can't speak either way. Hope to not have answer anytime soon. But, I will say this, you can't have all these people experiencing death and coming back with vastly different messages. Everybody can't be right.

[tremor]

The very link you pointed to says he was never medically near death? Where are you getting the 3 hours from?

I don't remember to be honest, I read some articles and saw some interviews some time ago and I think it was him who told that.

[Dragitoff]

How that makes you skeptical about NDEs? This is allegoric prophesy about Jesus resurrection.

Jesus resurrected himself some people, Lazarus including.

Please don't get me wrong. I know it's possible for it to happen. Jesus raised himself from the dead, Lazarus, and Jairus' daughter. I truly believe it can happen. I'm just saying as a Christian, I'm skeptical. What is the reason God would allow someone to have a NDE? Many claim it's so they will change their lives and tell others to change theirs. I'm simply reminded of that story is all I was saying.

I know "all things are possible" with God. I'm just not sure how I feel about the validity of the claims is all.