Howard close to going to the nets

[ag82]

At this point, I'd give up Horf for the one year rental. I like Al a lot, but I don't know if he is going to play a huge role on an NBA championship team.At least we become relevant and possible contenders for a year. Realistically, most teams have a year or two where they have a legitimate shot at a title anyways.If it doesn't work out, we lost Dwight, trade Josh and get to start all over.

[MaceCase]

I repeat what I ended my previous post with. You aren't making any sense and I honestly haven't shown me any indication you are closer to finding one either. I've said all along that I would trade Horford for Howard w/extension. Now you are bringing up something about Dwight wanting to be here and not being here. What does that have to do with what I said about Horford? NOTHING.

So please delight us with more confusing semantics.

Okay, I'll play along. So you've "always" said that you'd offer Horford for Howard with an extension but then you asked why exactly isn't Horford being offered? The very apparent answer: because Howard won't be traded to the Hawks with an extension. Your entirely separate somehow and absolutely unrelated response to that very answer "well he has a million reasons to blah blah blah!" But, oh. I'm the one who doesn't make sense....not the person vehemently arguing against the very stance they supposedly always had. Keep chasing your tail.

Can I offer something stupid to the conversation? I might go for a Dwight rental and see what happens.

If you acquire Howard by trade now, then he literally cannot get to Brooklyn without the Hawks' consent so you can totally block that avenue (they can't sign him as a FA; Hawks must consent to any sign and trade). In the meantime, you have a year to work on Howard and convince him that Atlanta is the place to be. We have all seen that Howard changes his mind quite a bit. Josh can also work on trying to recruit Paul from LAC / Harden from OKC / etc. If Josh and Dwight get on board, you have a very compelling argument to other free agents. (It isn't like Atlanta is a hard sell ala Memphis or Utah for lifestyle).

If it doesn't work out, you start over with top lottery picks and unlimited cap room which may be preferable to a plan of signing second tier free agents. If it does work out, you end up with premium talent and a legit shot at being a contender.

2 issues:

1) of his original list of 3 teams (Brooklyn, LA, Dallas) Dallas still remains a contender for his services seeing as they didn't get to the target they wanted with their capspace this year so it and then some will become available next season.

2) If it blows up in your face (relying on a guy who wanted out and is still skeptical, a guy who doesn't want to be here and luring another guy from a lucrative and comfortable situation) you won't even have the benefit of plenty of your lotto picks because they were given up to acquire Dwight.

So now you have a situation where you are worse than Dallas. At least they still have most their picks, young asset and superstar to go along with capspace and owner with massive equity for being the guy you want to work with. The Hawks on the other hand.....will have capspace but picks every other year and a feast of lower tier free trying to take advantage of the fact that the team has to spend money to get to the minimum.

[iDash]

C Horford is the only one willing to resign in ORLANDO, FLA!I love Horford, but one year filling the Hawks Arena with Howard is worth it!Management can sell the Team.Then, we can get better players in here in the ATL!I hope Ferry gets back in it,because we, like Houston, can easily out do the Nets in return value

Edited July 9, 2012 by iDash

[Sothron]

Okay, I'll play along. So you've "always" said that you'd offer Horford for Howard with an extension but then you asked why exactly isn't Horford being offered? The very apparent answer: because Howard won't be traded to the Hawks with an extension. Your entirely separate somehow and absolutely unrelated response to that very answer "well he has a million reasons to blah blah blah!" But, oh. I'm the one who doesn't make sense....not the person vehemently arguing against the very stance they supposedly always had. Keep chasing your tail.

I don't see why you are so confused over this. I honestly do not. The fact no one else has seen the apparent flaw in my posts sorts speaks to that as well. Just because I said Dwight has a lot of good reasons to play in Atlanta doesn't mean that he will. Nor does it mean if he doesn't come here those reasons were somehow invalid. Atlanta is his home town team. We are the team he grew up a fan as. We have his best friend since child hood on the roster. All of this is true. And if Dwight doesn't want to play here it doesn't make it untrue.

[AHF]

2 issues: 1) of his original list of 3 teams (Brooklyn, LA, Dallas) Dallas still remains a contender for his services seeing as they didn't get to the target they wanted with their capspace this year so it and then some will become available next season. 2) If it blows up in your face (relying on a guy who wanted out and is still skeptical, a guy who doesn't want to be here and luring another guy from a lucrative and comfortable situation) you won't even have the benefit of plenty of your lotto picks because they were given up to acquire Dwight. So now you have a situation where you are worse than Dallas. At least they still have most their picks, young asset and superstar to go along with capspace and owner with massive equity for being the guy you want to work with. The Hawks on the other hand.....will have capspace but picks every other year and a feast of lower tier free trying to take advantage of the fact that the team has to spend money to get to the minimum.

My proposed deal for Dwight doesn't give up more than our 2013 pick. My offer is roughly Teague, Horford and 1 first. I wouldn't trade multiple first round picks. I think that is a much better deal than Lopez (who doesn't want to play in Orlando and can't rebound) and late round firsts. I recognize the risk with Dallas. That is totally possible they could blow it up. They don't, however, have the cap room to take on another superstar so if Dwight wants to add another max salary to his team (and doesn't want that salary to be Dirk) and wants to get max raises himself then I think there is some upside. It could blow up but it is risk/reward. You rarely get a shot at a top 3 player in in the NBA or an elite center, and it is a gamble I would probably take. Edited July 9, 2012 by AHF

[MaceCase]

I don't see why you are so confused over this. I honestly do not. The fact no one else has seen the apparent flaw in my posts sorts speaks to that as well. Just because I said Dwight has a lot of good reasons to play in Atlanta doesn't mean that he will. Nor does it mean if he doesn't come here those reasons were somehow invalid. Atlanta is his home town team. We are the team he grew up a fan as. We have his best friend since child hood on the roster. All of this is true. And if Dwight doesn't want to play here it doesn't make it untrue.

I don't know how many times this exact conversation has happened in the last few days, but why do any of you think the Hawks are going to trade the whole team for a rental?

So with all of these perks, why is it he still doesn't want to play here? That's the one question no one's seemed able to answer.

Stop trying to appeal for the masses to come save your ass, these are two others who responded directly to you and your flawless logic.

[Admin]

At this point I think you're both arguing just to argue. Reminds me of the old Exodus days when he'd argue with everyone just to be difficult.

[Sothron]

Stop trying to appeal for the masses to come save your ass, these are two others who responded directly to you and your flawless logic.

Funny how none of what they said has anything to do with this confusing mire you find yourself in. The fact I answered both of them to no response from either one suggests that I do so accurately.

At this point I think you're both arguing just to argue. Reminds me of the old Exodus days when he'd argue with everyone just to be difficult.

Actually I'm honestly still trying to figure out what his beef is with anything I said. It is hard to argue with someone when they are talking apples and you are talking oranges.

[MaceCase]

My proposed deal for Dwight doesn't give up more than our 2013 pick. My offer is roughly Teague, Horford and 1 first. I wouldn't trade multiple first round picks. I think that is a much better deal than Lopez (who doesn't want to play in Orlando and can't rebound) and late round firsts.

I recognize the risk with Dallas. That is totally possible they could blow it up. They don't, however, have the cap room to take on another superstar so if Dwight wants to add another max salary to his team (and doesn't want that salary to be Dirk) and wants to get max raises himself then I think there is some upside.

It could blow up but it is risk/reward. You rarely get a shot at a top 3 player in in the NBA or an elite center, and it is a gamble I would probably take.

The problem here is that the Nets are trying to push a trade that will net the Magic 4 first rounders, a younger player who is better suited at a harder position to fill and are also eliminating longterm salary for the Magic. You don't know the details of the protections or even who the picks are coming from to dismiss them as late 1st rounders and you aren't offering a deal that nets the Magic a salary dump. You are skimping, yes it's a hefty price to pay for this franchise so far but Al, having to resign Teague (which eliminates whatever extra salary benefits between Al and Lopez' contract) and a single 1st isn't looking nearly as competitive as people here make it out to be. So in essence, you'll have to up your offer to block Dwight from the Nets but now you are unfortunately teetering on the edge of that dark abyss I mentioned where you're gambling the mortgage on the house. That proposal only regains it's luster if the complicated deal Brooklyn goes from 60/40, 50/50 to 0/0.

Now as far as Dallas, Dirk will be in the last year of his current deal. He's mentioned retiring but he may also resign at a discount giving the Mavericks more than ample capspace to sign another max in 2014. That isn't a scenario that is any less likely than luring another max to Atlanta to go along with Dwight. Dwight will take over as the heir apparent and have the opportunity to recruit himself.

There simply aren't enough concrete scenario's where I can imagine benefits that will outweigh longterm consequences. Who's to say another team doesn't pull another Danny Ferry this season and clear out space for 2013 too? Right now, seeing as the team will still have advantages next year to possibly acquire him, I see no need to risk the future just so we can offer a guy more money to stay.

[drzachary]

Can I offer something stupid to the conversation? I might go for a Dwight rental and see what happens.

If you acquire Howard by trade now, then he literally cannot get to Brooklyn without the Hawks' consent so you can totally block that avenue (they can't sign him as a FA; Hawks must consent to any sign and trade). In the meantime, you have a year to work on Howard and convince him that Atlanta is the place to be. We have all seen that Howard changes his mind quite a bit. Josh can also work on trying to recruit Paul from LAC / Harden from OKC / etc. If Josh and Dwight get on board, you have a very compelling argument to other free agents. (It isn't like Atlanta is a hard sell ala Memphis or Utah for lifestyle).

If it doesn't work out, you start over with top lottery picks and unlimited cap room which may be preferable to a plan of signing second tier free agents. If it does work out, you end up with premium talent and a legit shot at being a contender.

This. Exactly this.

This all-or-nothing approach also has the side benefit of being interesting, to me at least.

[AHF]

The problem here is that the Nets are trying to push a trade that will net the Magic 4 first rounders, a younger player who is better suited at a harder position to fill and are also eliminating longterm salary for the Magic. You don't know the details of the protections or even who the picks are coming from to dismiss them as late 1st rounders and you aren't offering a deal that nets the Magic a salary dump. You are skimping, yes it's a hefty price to pay for this franchise so far but Al, having to resign Teague (which eliminates whatever extra salary benefits between Al and Lopez' contract) and a single 1st isn't looking nearly as competitive as people here make it out to be. So in essence, you'll have to up your offer to block Dwight from the Nets but now you are unfortunately teetering on the edge of that dark abyss I mentioned where you're gambling the mortgage on the house. That proposal only regains it's luster if the complicated deal Brooklyn goes from 60/40, 50/50 to 0/0.

I don't see how NJ can possibly offer high picks but we will see if the deal actually happens. I would not offer picks beyond the Hou pick and our 2013 pick. If we have to blow it up after next season because Howard and Josh want to walk, then we sign and trade them for assets and have our own 2014 pick near the top of the draft.

If that doesn't get the deal done, then kudos to NJ. Frankly, my view on the deal is colored by the fact that I view Lopez as significantly worse than Horford (both for marketing as a former Gator star and on the floor). If the chance to dump $6M in salary or to get late first round picks is worth that much, then Orlando already has the deal it wants and should just pull the trigger.

Now as far as Dallas, Dirk will be in the last year of his current deal. He's mentioned retiring but he may also resign at a discount giving the Mavericks more than ample capspace to sign another max in 2014. That isn't a scenario that is any less likely than luring another max to Atlanta to go along with Dwight. Dwight will take over as the heir apparent and have the opportunity to recruit himself.

There simply aren't enough concrete scenario's where I can imagine benefits that will outweigh longterm consequences. Who's to say another team doesn't pull another Danny Ferry this season and clear out space for 2013 too? Right now, seeing as the team will still have advantages next year to possibly acquire him, I see no need to risk the future just so we can offer a guy more money to stay.

I would still chance it and see where it goes. Our future with Horford + our 2013 pick (#10 - #18 in the draft in a weaker draft) + Houston's non-lottery pick + 2014 pick (again likely #10 - #18) doesn't look so much better to me than a complete cleaning house + assets from S&T Howard + picking near the top of the draft in 2014 like New Orleans did with Paul.

[thefloydian]

Perhaps because if you've read even one of my posts about this you will see that I've said since the start Ferry would only give up Horford for Howard with an extension and not a one year rental?

Yeah but that's obviously not happening. Howard isn't signing anything. That's the point. All of this talk is pointless. The only way he's getting traded is to the Nets or some team willing to rent him for a year.

[thefloydian]

Can I offer something stupid to the conversation? I might go for a Dwight rental and see what happens. If you acquire Howard by trade now, then he literally cannot get to Brooklyn without the Hawks' consent so you can totally block that avenue (they can't sign him as a FA; Hawks must consent to any sign and trade). In the meantime, you have a year to work on Howard and convince him that Atlanta is the place to be. We have all seen that Howard changes his mind quite a bit. Josh can also work on trying to recruit Paul from LAC / Harden from OKC / etc. If Josh and Dwight get on board, you have a very compelling argument to other free agents. (It isn't like Atlanta is a hard sell ala Memphis or Utah for lifestyle). If it doesn't work out, you start over with top lottery picks and unlimited cap room which may be preferable to a plan of signing second tier free agents. If it does work out, you end up with premium talent and a legit shot at being a contender.

This wouldn't bother me at all, but I'm one of the few people who want to be in the lottery it seems. I don't see Ferry doing it, though.

[MaceCase]

I don't see how NJ can possibly offer high picks but we will see if the deal actually happens. I would not offer picks beyond the Hou pick and our 2013 pick. If we have to blow it up after next season because Howard and Josh want to walk, then we sign and trade them for assets and have our own 2014 pick near the top of the draft.

Ah ah ah, you are stating that as if it is a certainty. Remember, unless it's an over the cap team, there's no incentive for them to bother with the hassle of a SnT. Dallas and Houston are two teams with cap that have appeared on Dwight's and Josh's respective wishlists

If that doesn't get the deal done, then kudos to NJ. Frankly, my view on the deal is colored by the fact that I view Lopez as significantly worse than Horford (both for marketing as a former Gator star and on the floor). If the chance to dump $6M in salary or to get late first round picks is worth that much, then Orlando already has the deal it wants and should just pull the trigger.

Yes, I can tell.... but like I said, position demographics, extra picks, lesser salary (Horf and Teague will cost more than Lopez alone) plus being relieved of J-Rich skew the needle in Lopez' favor because the extra perks makeup for the production drop.

I would still chance it and see where it goes. Our future with Horford + our 2013 pick (#10 - #18 in the draft in a weaker draft) + Houston's non-lottery pick + 2014 pick (again likely #10 - #18) doesn't look so much better to me than a complete cleaning house + assets from S&T Howard + picking near the top of the draft in 2014 like New Orleans did with Paul.

You are painting it rather bleakly. Having ours and Houston's pick plus capspace, Al and Teague's rights is a much better springing board than having the cupboard bare unless we miraculously underbid Brooklyn and then got Dwight and Josh to be kind enough to net us a SnT to a team under the cap that would create for us a TPE that is useless giving the already existent exorbitant amount of capspace and a 2nd rounder or first that can be protected in a manner where it never has to be conveyed.

[AHF]

Ah ah ah, you are stating that as if it is a certainty. Remember, unless it's an over the cap team, there's no incentive for them to bother with the hassle of a SnT. Dallas and Houston are two teams with cap that have appeared on Dwight's and Josh's respective wishlists.

This is true, but if we take Dwight's statement about Brooklyn or bust as true then they have to do a SnT. Dwight has to change his mind to make another team under the cap a threat (i.e., not LAL) and then has to change his mind but still reject Atlanta and a higher salary. I am willing to risk him changing his mind to being excited about Atlanta and greedy enough for more money.

Yes, I can tell.... but like I said, position demographics, extra picks, lesser salary (Horf and Teague will cost more than Lopez alone) plus being relieved of J-Rich skew the needle in Lopez' favor because the extra perks makeup for the production drop.

I think Horford is a better center than Lopez so position demographic don't sway me. Like I said, if that is the deal Orlando wants then they can have the NJ package. We apprarently haven't put Horford on the table but I would think that is a deal changer. This also assumes Lopez is willing to sign an extension in Orlando with a team that will suck and doesn't want to go to a team like Indiana to be Hibbert's replacement on a playoff roster.

You are painting it rather bleakly. Having ours and Houston's pick plus capspace, Al and Teague's rights is a much better springing board than having the cupboard bare unless we miraculously underbid Brooklyn and then got Dwight and Josh to be kind enough to net us a SnT to a team under the cap that would create for us a TPE that is useless giving the already existent exorbitant amount of capspace and a 2nd rounder or first that can be protected in a manner where it never has to be conveyed.

If we got a stud in the lottery in 2014, that could make for a better springing board than Horford and Teague plus someone like Meyers Leonard or Austin River. I disagree with your premise that we would be underbidding Brooklyn since I view the Atlanta offer as better than a deal centered around Lopez and late picks. I think Dwight is likely to end up as serious value in a S&T or in a deadline deal next season to some team that wants his Bird rights if things aren't working out well in Atlanta. Josh might end up netting you a second rounder. * * * * * On the whole, I agree that the post-Dwight profile is worse for us than doing nothing but it is a risk I am willing to take for a chance to end up great if Dwight wants his cash and can convince someone to come join him in Atlanta. I don't view being at the top of lottery with a few other assets as being much worse than being at the bottom of playoff seeding or the bottom of the lottery with a team where Horford is the best player by a significant margin. Edited July 9, 2012 by AHF

[MaceCase]

This is true, but if we take Dwight's statement about Brooklyn or bust as true then they have to do a SnT. Dwight has to change his mind to make another team under the cap a threat (i.e., not LAL) and then has to change his mind but still reject Atlanta and a higher salary. I am willing to risk him changing his mind to being excited about Atlanta and greedy enough for more money.

Yes, but I'll contend that he'll be fine settling for one of his original secondary or tertiary choices once his primary has been taken completely out the picture. As is the Lakers feel confident they'd be able to resign him but the Nash trade ate up their picks making them less appealing to Orlando in a trade so that would leave Dallas as the place he found appealing enough to begin with that would have the ability to sign. Atlanta would have to make a very strong case for him in the span of 1 season as to why everything Josh used to call him up late at night and complain about has changed.

I think Horford is a better center than Lopez so position demographic don't sway me. Like I said, if that is the deal Orlando wants then they can have the NJ package. We apprarently haven't put Horford on the table but I would think that is a deal changer.

This also assumes Lopez is willing to sign an extension in Orlando with a team that will suck and doesn't want to go to a team like Indiana to be Hibbert's replacement on a playoff roster.

Well I'd imagine that Ferry is waiting to see if the Brooklyn deal goes through. If it fails well then guess who will be available during free agency without Horford having to of been offered?

I think the signing extension part is null, all of these moves are contingent upon all of these free agents agreeing to sign in the first place. Wouldn't have any legs whatsoever if the main component going to Orlando said no. That and Indiana has just reported that they'd match Hibbert, price being the same for the two, why not?

If we got a stud in the lottery in 2014, that could make for a better springing board than Horford and Teague plus someone like Meyers Leonard or Austin River. I disagree with your premise that we would be underbidding Brooklyn since I view the Atlanta offer as better than a deal centered around Lopez and late picks. I think Dwight is likely to end up as serious value in a S&T or in a deadline deal next season to some team that wants his Bird rights if things aren't working out well in Atlanta. Josh might end up netting you a second rounder.

Well I feel that it's a classic underbid because you aren't actually hitting the Orlando GM's price of player, picks and cap. Horford just isn't enough to offset having to resign Teague, a late first from Atlanta and a lottery protected pick from Houston that could just as easily end becoming a far flung 2nd rounder.....i.e. less than a 1st.

* * * * *

On the whole, I agree that the post-Dwight profile is worse for us than doing nothing but it is a risk I am willing to take for a chance to end up great if Dwight wants his cash and can convince someone to come join him in Atlanta. I don't view being at the top of lottery with a few other assets as being much worse than being at the bottom of playoff seeding or the bottom of the lottery with a team where Horford is the best player by a significant margin.

I understand but.......you say this as though there would be no chance at achieving that next offseason through the use of free agent signings. I've posited the same question before that why not keep Joe if the intention is just to trade a package not centered around assets acquired from him for Dwight? He convinced Deron to go back to the Nets, who's to say that a more competitive team of him, Josh and Dwight for 2012-13 wouldn't have sold Dwight better on resigning than wishing on a star that Paul would want to escape LA and join him in Atlanta later?

To summarize: we're not doing just nothing, a less risky opportunity to pursue the very same players exists in 12 months.....why jump the gun?

[AHF]

I understand but.......you say this as though there would be no chance at achieving that next offseason through the use of free agent signings. I've posited the same question before that why not keep Joe if the intention is just to trade a package not centered around assets acquired from him for Dwight? He convinced Deron to go back to the Nets, who's to say that a more competitive team of him, Josh and Dwight for 2012-13 wouldn't have sold Dwight better on resigning than wishing on a star that Paul would want to escape LA and join him in Atlanta later? To summarize: we're not doing just nothing, a less risky opportunity to pursue the very same players exists in 12 months.....why jump the gun?

Joe isn't an impact player in the playoffs and so is less of an enticement to stay then a plan where Dwight and Paul package themselves somewhere. I have little doubt that Deron would be talking somewhere else if Dwight didn't tell him that he is coming for the future. If Atlanta kept JJ and had max cap space would Deron come running? Ummm....no. Deron, of course, will talk nicely about JJ and I do expect JJ to be very successful as a #3 option but a team where JJ still has to be the primary offensive option late in games where Dwight is getting fouled isn't anything that seems very attractive to me if I am Dwight compared to the chance to get an elite PG like Paul or Deron.

[Admin]

So the Nets are going to get 1st round picks for Brooks (Clippers) and Humphries (Cavs) along with 2-3 of their own future 1sts and combine those with scrap players and get Dwight.Super Squad Up!

[AHF]

So the Nets are going to get 1st round picks for Brooks (Clippers) and Humphries (Cavs) along with 2-3 of their own future 1sts and combine those with scrap players and get Dwight. Super Squad Up!

Cleveland is giving a first to NJ or getting a first from NJ?

[Admin]

Cleveland is giving a first to NJ or getting a first from NJ?

Ah sorry the 1st is going to Cleveland. Here is the trade breakdown:

According to sources the Nets would receive Howard, Jason Richardson, Chris Duhon and Earl Clark in the proposed deal. The Magic would get Brook Lopez in a sign-and-trade, Luke Walton, Damion James, Shelden Williams, Armon Johnson and three first-round picks -- two from the Nets and a lottery protected first from the Clippers. The Cavs would get Kris Humphries in a sign-and-trade, Quentin Richardson, Sundiata Gaines, a first round pick from the Nets and three million in cash. The Clippers would receive MarShon Brooks.

Sources told ESPN.com that the complicated deal was getting "close."

Nets In: Dwight, J-Rich, Duhon, Earl Clark

Nets Out: Lopez, Humphries, Brooks, Armon Johnson, Shellhead, D. James, Gaines, 2 1st round picks, $3 mil cash

Cavs In: Humphries, Q-Richardson, Gaines, 1st round from Nets, $3 mil cash

Cavs Out: Walton

Magic In: Lopez, Walton, D. James, Shellhead, Armon Johnson, 3 1st round picks

Magic Out: Dwight, J-Rich, Duhon, Earl Clark

Clippers In: Brooks

Clippers Out: Lottery protected 1st