R We really talking with UTAH???

[Diesel]

Sloan would love Reef. It would be like having Young Karl Malone with more offense.

But what could they give us.

I read something that seemed unlikely to me... It's at the bottom...

However, I think about this:

Reef to Utah.

Kirlenko to Atlanta.

Atlanta trades: PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim (19.8 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 2.5 apg in 35.9 minutes)

PF Chris Crawford (2.3 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 0.0 apg in 7.9 minutes)

Atlanta receives: SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes)

PG Tony Delk (8.6 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.8 apg in 20.3 minutes)

SF Aleksandar Pavlovic (4.8 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 0.6 apg in 10.9 minutes)

C Jarron Collins (3.8 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.8 apg in 16.5 minutes)

Change in team outlook: +9.3 ppg, +2.6 rpg, and +0.9 apg.

Dallas trades: C Shawn Bradley (3.1 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.1 apg in 11.1 minutes)

SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes)

PG Tony Delk (8.6 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.8 apg in 20.3 minutes)

Dallas receives: PF Chris Crawford (2.3 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 0.0 apg in 8 games)

C Curtis Borchardt (4.3 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 apg in 12 games)

C Keon Clark (2.0 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.5 apg in 2 games)

C Greg Ostertag (6.6 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 2.0 apg in 16 games)

Change in team outlook: -10.7 ppg, +5.7 rpg, and +1.3 apg.

Utah trades: SF Aleksandar Pavlovic (4.8 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 0.6 apg in 10.9 minutes)

C Curtis Borchardt (4.3 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 apg in 18.2 minutes)

C Jarron Collins (3.8 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.8 apg in 16.5 minutes)

C Keon Clark (2.0 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.5 apg in 13.5 minutes)

C Greg Ostertag (6.6 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 2.0 apg in 30.7 minutes)

Utah receives: PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim (19.8 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 2.5 apg in 19 games)

C Shawn Bradley (3.1 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.1 apg in 17 games)

Change in team outlook: +1.4 ppg, -8.3 rpg, and -2.2 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

[Traceman]

Reef is a VERY good player and I'm sure Sloan would like him but he is nowhere near the player that the Mailman was. Malone is arguably the greatest PF to EVER play the game. Reef is not even a top 5 PF now.

As for the proposed trade below, why would we want Jamsion's deal when Reef's expires after next season? Delk, Pavlovic and Collins are decent players but none are good enough to take Jamison and give up Reef under the circumstances.

[Playmaker0017]

Trace,

I know we all think basketball is a one-man sport, but it isn't.

Malone is a great player, and arguably the best PF in the game - but his cause was championed by the best PG to play the game.

While I am sure Malone would have had a stellar career under different circumstances, without Stockton he would be NOWHERE near the calibre player he is today.

They learned to play ball under a great coach in a great system. They learned each other and learned to feed off one another.

If Malone came out to the Vancouver Grizzlies organization, I am sure he wouldn't be on the road to the HOF quite yet.

Play.

[Traceman]

as the Mailman. That's not an insult to Reef, Reef is a very good player. But the Mailman's career averages for FG%, PPG, RBG and APG are better than Reef's BEST FG%, PPG, RBG or APG in ANY of his seasons. In other words, Reef could take the year he shot the highest FG%, the year he scored the most PPG, the year he grabbed the most rebounds and the year he dished the most assists and combine all those stats into one season and he STILL could not match Malone's CAREER AVERAGE numbers! It's not even close!

As for Stockton, he was great but he was no Magic Johnson. Magic is the greatest PG to ever play the game without question.

I agree that Stockton's presence made Malone better just as Malone's presence made Stockton bettter. I also agree that Sloan is a great coach. Still, Reef is not in Malone's league.

As for Malone not being great had he came out of the Grizzlies organization, I don't think that's true at all. The Jazz were HORRIBLE before Malone got there but they were able to build around him and get better. Apparently, the Grizzlies and Hawks couldn't/can't build around Reef. It's not all because of Reef but the Grizzlies are FAR better now that he is gone. In fact, they got better IMMEDIATELY after he left.

[Plainview1981]

Trace, Reef's one fan is so wrapped up in his love for

a player that really isnt an allstar player that he fails

to see the truth.

[Playmaker0017]

Trace,

I am not saying that Reef = Mailman or worse yet Reef > Mailman.

What I am saying is that I think Malone's numbers were a bit overinflated due to having the leagues best PG playing with him.

Stockton was there before Malone and still average good assist numbers. When Malone got there, they went up -- but so did Stockton's ability.

If Reef played with Stockton and under Sloan, I think Reef would have been mentioned in the same reverence. Malone brought one thing Reef can't and that is his physical presence. Malone is imposing and could set MONSTER picks. He has better fundamentals... but some of that is coaching related.

Experiences and the system you play in can have a serious impact on a player.

There is potential for LeBron to falter, because in my opinion he is being utilized incorrectly.

Play.

[Playmaker0017]

Hots,

Now you are just being an a-hole for the sake of being an a-hole.

What Reef's ONE fan is seeing is that Reef has potential that has never been tapped.

This stretch of basketball is the first time ANY coach has consistently went to Shareef in the post. The results have been tremendous. The problem is that AS A TEAM we are not getting the job done...

Play.

[Plainview1981]

Reef's one fan is biased. What has Reef done to put himself

over the likes of Jamison and Walker? They can average

20/8 also.....Heck, Jamison averaged 25/8. All you can say

is woulda shoulda coulda....Well that means nothing. The

coulda had Dr.J...but it didn't workout that way.

Reefs numbers have yet to make a team better. The better

his numbers get the more the team has seemed to lose as

of late.

[censored], Walker is having almost as good of a season as

Reef statwise and he's playing beside Finley/Nash/Jamison

and Dirk.

Reef 20PPG 9.8RPG 2.4APG

Walker 17.2PPG 10.3RPG 4.3APG

[Diesel]

So you believe that if Reef had the SYSTEM, Stockton, and all the comforts that Malone had that Reef wouldn't be able to produce.

It's easy to say Malone is the greatest PF in the game... However, I remember before Stockton-Malone became a household word...

Malone was a player who would play... get his 15-20, 9 rpg.

Did you notice I said a YOUNG Karl Malone??

Malone was a 20/8 player who couldn't hit free throws to save his life. There's a definite correlation to Stockton, Sloan, and Malone. How can you believe Malone was a great shooter when his FT percentage was Low 50% for the first part of his career???

Reef came into the game with more offensive polish than Malone. Is Reef Better? God No. However, playing for Sloan, Sloan can do some of the same things with Reef that he did with Malone that made Malone a great player. I think overall, Malone's greatest attribute is his strength.... Reef is of the same mold. Doesn't miss games.. Works out. Eats Right...

[chillzatl]

I don't care who Reef played with, STockton, Magic, whoever. He would never come close to having the career that Malone has had.

Simply because Reef doesn't have the balls that Malone did/does. HE doesn't have the attitude. Reef will go into the post 4 times, get pushed around without getting a call and HO HUM, just keep trying. Malone would come down and knock you on your ass, get an offensive foul, just to let you know that he's not gonna get pushed around. Reef doesn't do that, never has and never will.

All of this "so and so was great because he played with so and so" is a bunch of [censored]. It means jack [censored]. Great players are great players are great players. Just as good players are just good players.

You could not pair Reef with any player in the history of the game and make him into a great player. Being great is having a combination of talent and attitude that Shareef just doesn't have.

[chillzatl]

You didn't say YOUNG Karl Malone. You just said Karl Malone.

And don't say he was a bad FT shooter for the "first part" of his career. That is false. He was a bad FT shooter for teh first two seasons of his career. Like most great players, he eliminated that weakness from his game fairly quickly. From his 3rd season on he was a 70+% FT shooter.

Sloan could not make Reef a great player. Sloan and Stockton could not do it. Reef doesn't have the personality to be a great player.

You guys need to stop talking about Reef like he's a great player who has just been misused and undercoached his entire career.

[Diesel]

I said:

In reply to:

---

Sloan would love Reef. It would be like having

Young

Karl Malone with more offense.

---

It's at the top of the thread (unedited for your pleasure)???

[chillzatl]

So disregard my first two sentences.

Apart from that, Don't be a [censored] with me because I made a mistake. Have I moderated one of your posts lately or have you just been waiting around for a reason to act like an ass towards me?

[Diesel]

Come on Chillz...

You called me out... As if I were just making up stuff or something.

Point is...

Young Karl Malone had less offensive game than Reef. He was a lousy FT shooter which suggests that he didn't have much of a set shot either. High FG% because a lot of his points were dunks or layups. He was not as polished as Reef.

BUT.

His strength.... helped to make him who he is. He had great size for a PF and really good Strength... Plus getting one of the best PGs in the History of Basketball had some effect on his play.

I think that Reef has some weaknesses to work on, but like CWebb (who was more polished than Malone Also) and Malone, Reef can become a [censored] good PF with the right coach and personnell around him.

[chillzatl]

I didn't "call you out". I commented on Malones FT shooting. You said it was bad for the "first part" of his career, which was false. I just pointed out that it was only the first two seasons of his career. How the [censored] is that calling you out? I mean what you said was not true. It's not like I said "Diesel, you are a [censored] liar". I calmly pointed out the facts. You're the one that took offense to it and felt the need to try and show me up with your Mr. Moderator shtick...

But anyway, enough of that.. The point is, Shareef isn't in the same class as malone. The differences between them in their first two seasons are minor.

Shareef is a heck of a player. But no combination of coaches or players are going to make him great. He just doesn't have attitude. And that's what seperates the great ones from the very good ones.

[Playmaker0017]

Chillz,

I disagree, but unfortunately we couldn't do anything to prove otherwise.

But, in my opinion, if you put Reef in Malone's situation, he would be considered one of the greats.

Malone came into the league and couldn't hit a jump shot. There was no zone. He had a great PG. He had a great coach.

The pieces were set for success.

As always, players rarely make a system successful -- it is usually the other way around.

Under the right system, MJ would be just another player.

Play.

[Plainview1981]

Reef couldn't carry Malones jockstrap. Work ethic is

something Reef seems to know nothing about. Not

to mention Reef's a sissy. The guy just got punked

by Kenyon an average PF.......

Reef doesn't have the talent to be a hof player. His

post moves are limited, his jumper is weak and his

defense isn't HALF of what a primed Malone was. You

say the only difference between Reef and star PF's is

defense....It's a hellva lot bigger gap than that.

Reef sucks.

[Playmaker0017]

Hotlanta,

I might even consider what you say if you didn't follow it up with the world's dumbest comment - Reef sucks.

You are just an ignorant fool.

You never have anything of value to add to the discussion. Why don't you go watch a sport you understand.

Also, Reef has one of the best work ethics in the league, and there are VERY FEW who would disagree.

Please, just shut up. No one wants to hear your constant negativity. You don't even have a general area for your negativity... you just talk like an ignorant fool.

Go watch these other PFs. Go watch these other great teams. But, please, quit posting here.

Play.

[Diesel]

The opinion is that 70% is good FT%?

Malone's free three went up but going up to 77.8% then dropping back to 69% is not something to brag about in my book. Reef Averages over 80% from the line. Every superstar should. The Charity stripe is just that. Most players make a living by drawing the foul.

Unfortunately, in Stern's years, only select players are able to draw fouls with consistency. Imagine if Iverson were treated like Kobe as far as foul counted??

Point is, Malone (IMO) didn't shoot well from the line early in his career and his numbers still aren't much to brag about.

[Plainview1981]

Also, Reef has one of the best work ethics in the league, and there are VERY FEW who would disagree. "

Exactually why his game is the same it was as a rookie?

eh?

"Why don't you go watch a sport you understand. "

Basketball isnt a real sport anyway. It's too soft to

be a real sport.

"o watch these other PFs. Go watch these other great teams. But, please, quit posting here."

One thing I will not back a career loser that is for sure.

If I watched Reef every game I'd die from bordom.