The change of the Culture in Atlanta Sports.

[Diesel]

I've seen the Braves win 14 pennants in a row and win 1 world series.

I've seen the Falcons make it to the superbowl.

I have seen the Atlanta Chiefs become good then get taken away.

I have seen the Atlanta Flames become good then get taken away.

I have been a Hawks fan since Fast Eddie Johnson and John Drew.

 

Atlanta has been the worst sports city.  I have marveled at how Cleveland Browns fans support Cleveland no matter what.  Same thing for Green Bay Packer fans.  Hell, it's so cold in Green Bay that I can't imagine going to a game.   I have marveled at the faithful following of the Lakers.  Especially now.  I can't begin to understand how people support the Orioles and Redskins.. when there is no streak, no shot at winning, nothing good to cheer for...  But when you come to these Atlanta teams... even in our good years, we find it hard to keep a following. Our best teams get taken away.

 

Is it because of Owners like Rankin and Taylor Smith, AOL, Ted Turner, ATL Spirit, and the like.  Is it because going to downtown Atlanta is not appealing to people in Cobb and Gwinnette County?

 

I don't pretend to know.  However, as I said before, the Hawks ought not run from what we have been and what we are.  IF Players leave saying that we're a bunch of Bandwagon fans... Embrace it.  It's true.  Before now, we have  not had much to gather for.  Before now, we have not had much to cheer for.  And even now, there are still some of us who have been faithful who have doubts.  We still wonder if we're really this damn good.  We still wonder if we can beat the Cavs.  We still wonder if we can win it all.

I don't pretend to know the answer but what I believe is that now all the stars are aligning and this is the time for the culture of Atlanta Sports to change.. and our Hawks are the catalyst.

 

We talk about our Mount Rushmore of Atlanta Sports...

Sure Nique.  Sure Deion.  Sure Chipper... But the next face have to be this one...

 

 

Put them in together because these guys together can change the whole culture of Atlanta Sports.

[curtmcgirt]

I think bad ownership, years of losing, infrastructure, White Flight, and bad luck are to blame for our city's sports culture.

 

• Bad Owners - Smith Family, early Ted Turner, TW-AOL, Atlanta Spirit, Tom Cousins
• Losing Records - Pre -Blank Falcons, Braves post Aaron til 90. Pre and post Nique Hawks (Babcock through Knight era). Entirety of Thrashes history
• Infrastructure - Not having a way to get fans to Atlanta Fulton County/ Turner Field. We need mass transit that goes to Cobb, Gwinnett and Clayton that would have been like the GWCC/Phillips stop.
• Infrastructure - Failure to develop around stadiums. Although post Olympics, Philips and Dome are eons better.
• White Flight - hits in the years when we acquire teams. No way to build a history without fans going as kids. Downtown Atlanta became too "dangerous" for families to visit. This still rears its head today.
• Bad Luck - Pete Babcock, Billy Knight, Jim Leyritz

Edited March 5, 2015 by curtmcgirt

[Dejay]

I'd say that Atlanta has been the smartest sports city in America. I don't marvel at Cleveland fans who sell out the building for a 2-9 Browns squad or Cub fans who pack Wrigley when they're 37 games out of first. NOT AT ALL. I pity them and do my best from openly laughing in their faces whenever I run into one and that is mentioned.

 

And as for being a Laker fan, c'mon on. Even in a down year, it's a lot easier to pop in a DVD of Showtime or any of their world title runs, charge it to the game, and go down to Staples out of the guise of 'well, they did it before, they'll do it again'. It's a lot harder sell when your team's highlight over the last twenty years was a rookie winning a dunk contest whom his own coach couldn't stand. 

 

So let me get this straight. A restaurant that rarely passes inspection, has lousy service, bad food that sometimes have a rotten smell, and high prices should be getting my $$$ because it used to be a good place to eat back in 1956 when Granddad went there? That's not being a fan; that's just being stupid and a sucker. Yeah, I said it; it's just plain stupid and a sucker to support a lousy product, especially when it's not even trying to get better (see Thrashers, Atlanta, Rankin Smith-era Falcons). Whenever an eatery or movie theater has the stones to expect folks to magically appear despite serving a bad/middling product, you know what I do? I find somewhere else to spend my $$$; eventually, that place either adapts to the market or goes away. Sports should be treated no differently.

 

That's the main reason why so many fans have stayed away. Unlike the lemmings in Philly, Chicago, and Cleveland, we have expectations of our sports teams, especially in the few seasons where they actually field a good team. To us, it's not good enough to have three HOFers in your starting rotation and only win one world title without at least one manager being shown the door. That might do it in Kansas City or Milwaukee; not here. While winning 45 games and getting royally thumped in the first round may get you noticed in one-horse towns like Portland, Sacramento, and Salt Lake, it does nothing for us here because of the myriad of sporting/entertainment options. But don't take my word for it; ask Joe Johnson and Chipper Jones about those empty seats and they'll tell ya.

 

As for the current Hawks, I see a similarity to them and the 1991 Braves. Both had years of playing mediocre, if not outright awful ball. Both were run by some of the most incompetent general managers, managers, and coaches known to pro sports. It took a while into the season before the locals began to pay attention (the Braves didn't start consistently selling out until after the All-Star break). Both were prohibitive underdogs to win come postseason (what national guy will have them beating the Cavs come May?). We all see how that turned out back in '91. Hopefully, we won't have a Lonnie Smith getting confused on the basepaths or a Eugene Robinson moment this spring.

 

I agree with you, Diesel. The paradigm shift is upon us. Win the thing this season and we can have this league by the short hairs. We'd get a higher draft pick (at worst, 14th) than any playoff contender has, and unlike most of them, have a metric ton of cap space. Bring in the right group of owners who know a good thing when they see one and we might get to see the same kind of run the Braves had in the early-'90s (sans the bad playoff losses, of course)...

Edited March 5, 2015 by Dejay

[Diesel]

 

I think bad ownership, years of losing, infrastructure, White Flight, and bad luck are to blame for our city's sports culture.

 

• Bad Owners - Smith Family, early Ted Turner, TW-AOL, Atlanta Spirit, Tom Cousins
• Losing Records - Pre -Blank Falcons, Braves post Aaron til 90. Pre and post Nique Hawks (Babcock through Knight era). Entirety of Thrashes history
• Infrastructure - Not having a way to get fans to Atlanta Fulton County/ Turner Field. We need mass transit that goes to Cobb, Gwinnett and Clayton that would have been like the GWCC/Phillips stop.
• Infrastructure - Failure to develop around stadiums. Although post Olympics, Philips and Dome are eons better.
• White Flight - hits in the years when we acquire teams. No way to build a history without fans going as kids. Downtown Atlanta became too "dangerous" for families to visit. This still rears its head today.
• Bad Luck - Pete Babcock, Billy Knight, Jim Leyritz

 

 

The infrastructure point... I don't know.  MARTA had an OMNI station for years. Concerts in Atlanta (pick your favorite artist) never go undersold.  Even the old Fulton Co. Stadium had good parking.

I don't know if the infrastructure is that big of an issue.   The Hawks have even developed Party buses.

i will say that it would be nice if you could develop a shopping area around the stadium and arena but I don't see that happening so well.

[Dejay]

I still get shivers up my back thinking about what Cousins did to the Flames. My dad used to take me to see them when I was a little kid. They were pretty good and sold out the Omni; the Hawks didn't catch their average attendance numbers until well into Nique's prime when the Hawks were actual contenders. To me, that was far more painful than the Thrashers moving away because that team actually cared about winning. And on cue, they promptly went on to play in three Stanley Cup Finals since then...

[curtmcgirt]

The infrastructure point... I don't know.  MARTA had an OMNI station for years. Concerts in Atlanta (pick your favorite artist) never go undersold.  Even the old Fulton Co. Stadium had good parking.

I don't know if the infrastructure is that big of an issue.   The Hawks have even developed Party buses.

i will say that it would be nice if you could develop a shopping area around the stadium and arena but I don't see that happening so well.

 

That was more in reference to the Braves. 

 

I honestly don't think a mall is the way to go when developing around arenas. Parks, hotels, food options and tourist attractions seem like a better bet. But then the Dome/GWCC/Phillips are used by so many conventions it can support those businesses. Baseball fields can only really serve one purpose which makes them more of a money pit.

[curtmcgirt]

I also think it should be pointed out that outside of Arthur, Atlanta's richest citizens have no interest in owning a team. Ann Cox Chambers and Bernie Marcus wouldn't even buy a team out of civic pride. 

 

Georgia has done a poor job making this a hub for new industries and it rears it's head here. 

[Diesel]

I'd say that Atlanta has been the smartest sports city in America. I don't marvel at Cleveland fans who sell out the building for a 2-9 Browns squad or Cub fans who pack Wrigley when they're 37 games out of first. NOT AT ALL. I pity them and do my best from openly laughing in their faces whenever I run into one and that is mentioned.

 

And as for being a Laker fan, c'mon on. Even in a down year, it's a lot easier to pop in a DVD of Showtime or any of their world title runs, charge it to the game, and go down to Staples out of the guise of 'well, they did it before, they'll do it again'. It's a lot harder sell when your team's highlight over the last twenty years was a rookie winning a dunk contest whom his own coach couldn't stand. 

 

So let me get this straight. A restaurant that rarely passes inspection, has lousy service, bad food that sometimes have a rotten smell, and high prices should be getting my $$$ because it used to be a good place to eat back in 1956 when Granddad went there? That's not being a fan; that's just being stupid and a sucker. Yeah, I said it; it's just plain stupid and a sucker to support a lousy product, especially when it's not even trying to get better (see Thrashers, Atlanta, Rankin Smith-era Falcons). Whenever an eatery or movie theater has the stones to expect folks to magically appear despite serving a bad/middling product, you know what I do? I find somewhere else to spend my $$$; eventually, that place either adapts to the market or goes away. Sports should be treated no differently.

 

That's the main reason why so many fans have stayed away. Unlike the lemmings in Philly, Chicago, and Cleveland, we have expectations of our sports teams, especially in the few seasons where they actually field a good team. To us, it's not good enough to have three HOFers in your starting rotation and only win one world title without at least one manager being shown the door. That might do it in Kansas City or Milwaukee; not here. While winning 45 games and getting royally thumped in the first round may get you noticed in one-horse towns like Portland, Sacramento, and Salt Lake, it does nothing for us here because of the myriad of sporting/entertainment options. But don't take my word for it; ask Joe Johnson and Chipper Jones about those empty seats and they'll tell ya.

 

As for the current Hawks, I see a similarity to them and the 1991 Braves. Both had years of playing mediocre, if not outright awful ball. Both were run by some of the most incompetent general managers, managers, and coaches known to pro sports. It took a while into the season before the locals began to pay attention (the Braves didn't start consistently selling out until after the All-Star break). Both were prohibitive underdogs to win come postseason (what national guy will have them beating the Cavs come May?). We all see how that turned out back in '91. Hopefully, we won't have a Lonnie Smith getting confused on the basepaths or a Eugene Robinson moment this spring.

 

I agree with you, Diesel. The paradigm shift is upon us. Win the thing this season and we can have this league by the short hairs. We'd get a higher draft pick (at worst, 14th) than any playoff contender has, and unlike most of them, have a metric ton of cap space. Bring in the right group of owners who know a good thing when they see one and we might get to see the same kind of run the Braves had in the early-'90s (sans the bad playoff losses, of course)...

 

 

And here is the problem with your point of view.  It goes with the casual way that we toss around fan in this culture.  Fandom is more than just a sometimy proposition.  Being a fan has great power and gravity.  I know that on Facebook and Twitter or other new social media we have made fan look like something that we put on or take off at a whim.  Hence your Restaurant analogy... however, no restaurant or fan button on social media can do what being a fan of a team can do.  When I say I'm a Hawks fan, I have affiliated myself with a group of folks who I believe share the same passion as I do.  That means that there's no race, there's no economic difference, there is no educational difference... all of society disappears and for those few moments, we all exist as Hawks fans. Equal and wanting the same thing... our team to win.   You don't get that type of bonding from a good meal at your favorite restaurant.    Ain't nobody willing to go out and buy a Bone's restaurant Hat or Bone's restaurant Jersey so that others will know that you are a fan. That's why the attitude of Atlanta fans are so far off and we're so fair-weather.    Today's ATLien look at being a fan as a proposition where the team has to be good in order for me to be with them.  That's not a fan, that's a bandwagoner.  The bandwagoner is not respected by the fan because where were you in the lean years?  Where is your loyalty?  I say we welcome everybody who jump on the bandwagon.. but let's not act as though there is no bandwagoners here.  We are what we are... a few diehard fans surrounded by a bunch of bandwagoners.   I just hope that the bandwagoners find something about this team to be loyal for.

[Dejay]

It's because they know all too well what is expected of them if they dared to venture in. They know that losing here is simply not tolerated under any circumstances. There is no putting it in the deep freeze with simply making the playoffs; the Braves, Hawks, and to an extent, Falcons have ruined that by not coming through too many times. That maybe too much for some folks to live up to every year; it's like coaching football in the SEC. Most owners want their fans to be just like those in Cleveland or Philly; mad as hell if they're losing but spending $$$ in the arena nonetheless.

[Diesel]

That was more in reference to the Braves. 

 

I honestly don't think a mall is the way to go when developing around arenas. Parks, hotels, food options and tourist attractions seem like a better bet. But then the Dome/GWCC/Phillips are used by so many conventions it can support those businesses. Baseball fields can only really serve one purpose which makes them more of a money pit.

 

Yeah.. there's where I was going.  I think if you had like a shopping village around the Dome and the Arena they would thrive and the zoning would kinda kill white fright.  However, for Baseball, you do need that Hotel stuff.

[Diesel]

I also think it should be pointed out that outside of Arthur, Atlanta's richest citizens have no interest in owning a team. Ann Cox Chambers and Bernie Marcus wouldn't even buy a team out of civic pride. 

 

Georgia has done a poor job making this a hub for new industries and it rears it's head here. 

 

I don't know if the richest of our citizens even have interest in the sports. .. Although I was thinking Marcus might?

What the city actually needs is another news outlet.

Something that can compete with AJC and WSB and offer a new voice for Sports.   Atlanta Sports hasn't been reported right since Denberg and Pazqueralli ... I probably misspelled both names but you all know who I mean.

Even though newspapers are dying, there's still a need for somebody who can cover Atlanta Sports electronically and speak to the city.  We don't have enough homers.

[curtmcgirt]

Yeah.. there's where I was going.  I think if you had like a shopping village around the Dome and the Arena they would thrive and the zoning would kinda kill white fright.  However, for Baseball, you do need that Hotel stuff.

 

I don't know that the economics of a baseball specific stadium work that way. You get 81 home games which is roughly 22% of the calendar year. With playoffs and exhibitions you're up to MAYBE another 10-15 dates. As a primary attraction this isn't something you can build around. Also due to the nature of the schedule you can't really book multiple tenants to fill in the holes in the schedule. You would need proximity to other attractions to make up the other 88% of the year. Of all the specific stadium types, baseball is by far the most useless.

 

That said, I agree with the Braves moving, just not WHERE they moved. They should have absolutely looked to build near the GWCC campus. That would put them closer to hotels and attractions. Right at the Vine City MARTA line. and near pre-existing amenities. 

[Dejay]

I've never shied away from having folks hop on the bandwagon. As I've stated here many times, I've been a fan for over 35 years and have virtually seen it all when it comes to Atlanta sports since the late-'70s. But I never attended a sporting event to watch my team play; I attend sporting events to watch my team win.

 

To me, winning and contending for world titles is a sports team's sales pitch. If you do that or least have done that recently, the rest takes care of itself. That's why the Lakers, Celtics, and ©Heat still sell out and the Hawks haven't since '88-89. That's why the Packers have a waiting list (along with the fact that there's nothing else to do up there). How often did the Patriots sell their place out before Kraft and Belichick got there? It's all about bringing home the big belt or at the very least, contending for it.

 

I never said that our town isn't loaded with bandwagon fans; every town is for that matter. What I'm saying is that I can see where they're coming from, especially when the team has been mediocre and/or bad for so long...

[Dejay]

I can cosign with that, Diesel. The sports reporting in this town is almost Thrasher-like, i.e., borderline atrocious. When you don't have C.Viv reporting stuff from 1983 as if it's tomorrow's news, you have Terence Moore railing the teams at every turn. Even if the Braves won the next five World Series, Moore would still go on and on about them trading David Justice back in 1997. As far as the rest of them goes, they look at Atlanta as a stepping stone to NFL Network or ESPN.

[Diesel]

I don't know that the economics of a baseball specific stadium work that way. You get 81 home games which is roughly 22% of the calendar year. With playoffs and exhibitions you're up to MAYBE another 10-15 dates. As a primary attraction this isn't something you can build around. Also due to the nature of the schedule you can't really book multiple tenants to fill in the holes in the schedule. You would need proximity to other attractions to make up the other 88% of the year. Of all the specific stadium types, baseball is by far the most useless.

 

That said, I agree with the Braves moving, just not WHERE they moved. They should have absolutely looked to build near the GWCC campus. That would put them closer to hotels and attractions. Right at the Vine City MARTA line. and near pre-existing amenities. 

 

I can't understand why you can't have Brave, Falcons, and Hawks in proximity to one another...Surrounded by Restaurants and Shops.  If they could have put it where the GWCC is now.. and surrounded the whole area with Shops I think all sports would have thrived.

[macdaddy]

I can't understand why you can't have Brave, Falcons, and Hawks in proximity to one another...Surrounded by Restaurants and Shops.  If they could have put it where the GWCC is now.. and surrounded the whole area with Shops I think all sports would have thrived.

 

No doubt!  I've lived here my whole life and I don't tolerate a lot of bad mouthing of Atlanta, but this city is run by developers that are notoriously short sighted and greedy.   

[Diesel]

I've never shied away from having folks hop on the bandwagon. As I've stated here many times, I've been a fan for over 35 years and have virtually seen it all when it comes to Atlanta sports since the late-'70s. But I never attended a sporting event to watch my team play; I attend sporting events to watch my team win.

 

To me, winning and contending for world titles is a sports team's sales pitch. If you do that or least have done that recently, the rest takes care of itself. That's why the Lakers, Celtics, and ©Heat still sell out and the Hawks haven't since '88-89. That's why the Packers have a waiting list (along with the fact that there's nothing else to do up there). How often did the Patriots sell their place out before Kraft and Belichick got there? It's all about bringing home the big belt or at the very least, contending for it.

 

I never said that our town isn't loaded with bandwagon fans; every town is for that matter. What I'm saying is that I can see where they're coming from, especially when the team has been mediocre and/or bad for so long...

 

Well, the heat doesn't sell out, they have more bandwagoners than we do.  I would say that Loyalty not stupidity is what gets guys whoose teams finish worse every year to believe that their team can be the best.  I have watched the Aints be the bud of every Joke with paperbags on their heads to seeing their team win the superbowl.  Somebody gotto bolieve!!

Edited March 5, 2015 by Diesel

[DrReality]

Atl is such a transitional city for so many people that is caught between old and new.  Outsiders see it as the Old South while the transience of the people who live here............. Blank made a splash with the Falcons, the Braves had a strong culture for a while and Turner did the same with the Hawks.  But none of them have stuck.  That's the challenge for the Hawks now.  Create it and make it stick. That's not easy.  Even Boston and LA are on the down swing now. 

[Dejay]

Diesel, you know that the instant a plan like that came out, the poverty pimps would be crying gentrification (translation: where's our cut?). I've literally have screamed for years that more should have been done down there dating back to the Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium days. While the Omni/Philips/Dome has been buffered by the convention business generated by the GWCC (although Vine City is right next door), the same couldn't be said for Turner Field.

 

One of the reasons why the Braves are moving is because the surrounding areas were never developed and left to rot. Folks who go to the games simply drive there, watch the game, and drive out as quickly as possible. Meanwhile, the city leaders, in their infinite wisdom, all but told the Braves to just take it; as if they couldn't find anywhere else to go. That's like treating a spouse any kind of way, thinking that they'll never leave. They were wrong...

Edited March 5, 2015 by Dejay

[curtmcgirt]

I can't understand why you can't have Brave, Falcons, and Hawks in proximity to one another...Surrounded by Restaurants and Shops.  If they could have put it where the GWCC is now.. and surrounded the whole area with Shops I think all sports would have thrived.

 

I think if we have this conversation in the 90's up to 2007 its a viable concept. But landprices have gone up AND people are smarter about how they do business with sports entities. Enough locations have been burned by the promise of "economic benefits " of stadiums. Atlanta Fulton County, The Georgia Dome and even Turner Field promised all sorts of things and never delivered. There are entire academic studies that conclude it's not worth it to tax payers. If you look at the current stadium boom, they're all being built on old commercial grounds. 

 

If I could build a "Way Back Machine" I would have put all three on the site of Atlantic Station. GT could have split the cost and use of the facilities. Build a MARTA spur going north from Vine City.