MKG -- 52 over 4 years -- wtf

[JETSET]

Will he though?  That's the gamble.  We thought Marvo would surely improve considering how young he was too.

The difference is Marvin was never elite at anything.  MKG is already an elite defender and one of the best rebounding SF's in the league.  It's not like he's completely useless on offense either.  The Hornets Ortg was 99.1 with him off court and 102.7 when he was on the court.  Their Drtg plummets from 107.4 to 98.8 when he steps on to the court.

 

 

I also think being on Charlotte hurts his value some.  Put him on ATL, San An or GSW and he would be seen as an all-star caliber player.  His lack of outside scoring is magnified on Charlotte since their whole team struggles to shoot the 3.  Put him in a movement oriented offense loaded with shooters and he would get a ton of baskets off of hard cuts and putbacks.  He already averaged 11 points per game in 29 minutes last season.

Edited August 25, 2015 by JETSET

[Guest]

I don't know about all these salary cap projections from two perspectives: 1) the shortfall is likely overstated and 2) we will have a new CBA...and I've swung towards the owners side from a predictions stand point. I still think the owners are full of shit on claiming losses and greatly prefer to not have restrictions in a market but I just don't see that happening.

When the new round of negotiations come up, what is the players next best alternative? Still Europe and they still lag behind in salaries substantially. So while the players might attempt a strike, it's going to be fruitless if they ask for too much. Hell, they might not even be able to get an increase in share. Their biggest issue has to do with his the Salary Cap is protected and not their share of BRI.

So in saying MKG forgoes $XX million, well I kind of doubt we end up seeing a nine figure Cap in the next three seasons.

[JETSET]

The high-priced NBA already started this off-season.  I will happily take MKG at 4/52 vs Demarre at 4/60, post-achilles Matthews at 4/70 or Shumpert at 4/40.

[Guest]

Sadly I got them both in his rookie year, road red and alternate yellow, so it wasn't even on sale. :-( I thought he was the next James Worthy...(ya ummmm I know I know)

 

 

The difference is Marvin was never elite at anything.  MKG is already an elite defender and one of the best rebounding SF's in the league.  It's not like he's completely useless on offense either.  The Hornets Ortg was 99.1 with him off court and 102.7 when he was on the court.  Their Drtg plummets from 107.4 to 98.8 when he steps on to the court.

 

 

I also think being on Charlotte hurts his value some.  Put him on ATL, San An or GSW and he would be seen as an all-star caliber player.  His lack of outside scoring is magnified on Charlotte since their whole team struggles to shoot the 3.  Put him in a movement oriented offense loaded with shooters and he would get a ton of baskets off of hard cuts and putbacks.  He already averaged 11 points per game in 29 minutes last season.

 

Eh, you're probably more right than me.  I still think that "P" word is just the bane of the NBA's existence.  Every bad decision made in the NBA is based on the p-word.  Drafting based on the p-word.  Overpaying guys because of the p-word.

 

"Man, if MKG were surrounded by better teammates he'd be an all-star."  "If he had a good PG, man his game would just explode."  "If he could only start making 3's, man he'd be an MVP."

 

What happened to expecting a guy to elevate his game and thereby elevating his teammates.  Then rewarding him handsomely for it?  Now guys get paid based on the p-word.  Then when all these empty deals fall apart and you have guys sitting on the ends of benches making unjustified 8-figure salaries, the solution is to invent an amnesty provision to bail us out of the p-word mistakes.

 

All in all, this cap explosion simply ensures another lockout in the not so distant future.

[Guest]

Eh, you're probably more right than me. I still think that "P" word is just the bane of the NBA's existence. Every bad decision made in the NBA is based on the p-word. Drafting based on the p-word. Overpaying guys because of the p-word.

"Man, if MKG were surrounded by better teammates he'd be an all-star." "If he had a good PG, man his game would just explode." "If he could only start making 3's, man he'd be an MVP."

What happened to expecting a guy to elevate his game and thereby elevating his teammates. Then rewarding him handsomely for it? Now guys get paid based on the p-word. Then when all these empty deals fall apart and you have guys sitting on the ends of benches making unjustified 8-figure salaries, the solution is to invent an amnesty provision to bail us out of the p-word mistakes.

All in all, this cap explosion simply ensures another lockout in the not so distant future.

Is that Freddie Prinze Jr.? Wtf

[JETSET]

 

 

Eh, you're probably more right than me.  I still think that "P" word is just the bane of the NBA's existence.  Every bad decision made in the NBA is based on the p-word.  Drafting based on the p-word.  Overpaying guys because of the p-word.

 

"Man, if MKG were surrounded by better teammates he'd be an all-star."  "If he had a good PG, man his game would just explode."  "If he could only start making 3's, man he'd be an MVP."

 

What happened to expecting a guy to elevate his game and thereby elevating his teammates.  Then rewarding him handsomely for it?  Now guys get paid based on the p-word.  Then when all these empty deals fall apart and you have guys sitting on the ends of benches making unjustified 8-figure salaries, the solution is to invent an amnesty provision to bail us out of the p-word mistakes.

 

All in all, this cap explosion simply ensures another lockout in the not so distant future.

Guys have always been paid on potential, that's nothing new.  Also, it's not like his whole game is based on potential.  He is already a top 5 wing defender and a top 5 rebounder at his position.  He averaged 9.5 rebs and 2.5 orebs per 36 last season at the SF position. He made a clear impact in his teams win percentage. 

 

I would much rather give $13 million to that type of player than some overrated offensive player who provides nothing on defense like Nikola Vucevic who just received 48 mil over 4 years.  MKG's on/off differential was +12.2 while Vucevic's was -.7.  Last season, the Magic were 4-4 without Vucevic, which included a 1 pt loss to GSW, a 2 pt loss to Wash and a 6 pt loss to ATL, and 21-53 with him. The Hornets were 26-25 with MKG and 6-17 without him.  These figures show who is the clear difference maker for their team yet people will question MKG's deal and consider Vucevic's deal fine simply because he can score.

 

MKG's proneness to injury should be more of a concern than his offense.  He has already proven that he can be a difference maker with his current offensive output. 

[Guest]

I hear you, @JETSET.  I was just railing against the pay-for-potential stuff which I can't stand.

 

@Spud2Nique I don't know who that dude is but I'm moderately sure it's not that Prinze guy.  There's a 'what, you think we all look alike' joke in there somewheres.

[Guest]

Whenever you hear "potential" then all the references for that are negative connotations. Rarely do you hear that Kevin Garnett was paid $126 million on "potential" but that is what happened. I found this really cool article from 1997 on this issue which parallels lots of what is currently happening:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/589294/Garnetts-126-million-Wolves-bargain-or-bust.html?pg=all

Lots of other players were paid based off of "potential" to then see the contracts as well deserved or even a bargain. Hell, the Hawks maxed Joe on potential. And it's also not like the only bad contracts were from "potential" either. Speedy Clak-clak-clak-claxton wasn't paid off of "potential" and that busted. Joe Johnson round #2 wasn't "potential" based. Blah blah blah.

[benhillboy]

I also think being on Charlotte hurts his value some.

Some? How about tremendously. The only half-interesting thing coming out of Charlotte every year is Jordan beating one of their wings in one on one.

I'd never heard the opinion that he was their best player until now, very interesting. 99 out of 100 casual fans would obviously say Walker or Jefferson. I've seen most of our games versus the Horcats over the past few years, the guy was almost never available so I couldn't comment on his game having never seen him. Charlotte fans and writers have always highly touted his defense, though. I guess you're worth what a team is willing to pay, bur I will never adjust to this spiked pay scale, man. This shit is way outta control.

And I take Shump's deal over MKG, DeMarre's, and Matthews' all day.

Edited August 26, 2015 by benhillboy

[JETSET]

Some? How about tremendously. The only half-interesting thing coming out of Charlotte every year is Jordan beating one of their wings in one on one.

I'd never heard the opinion that he was their best player until now, very interesting. 99 out of 100 casual fans would obviously say Walker or Jefferson. I've seen most of our games versus the Horcats over the past few years, the guy was almost never available so I couldn't comment on his game having never seen him. Charlotte fans and writers have always highly touted his defense, though. I guess you're worth what a team is willing to pay, bur I will never adjust to this spiked pay scale, man. This shit is way outta control.

And I take Shump's deal over MKG, DeMarre's, and Matthews' all day.

Walker and Jefferson are both iso chuckers who play almost zero defense or team ball.  They are the biggest problems in Charlotte.  Talk about a bad deal, Walker's deal is the definition of horrid.  This once again goes back to my previous point about Vucevic vs MKG.  People see a highlight of Kemba making a couple of tough shots and miss out on the 15 misses that came before and after.  They see Jefferson post 24 points on pretty good FG% but don't notice how the offense completely stalls once he touches the ball or how terrible of a defender he is.  The truth is the Hornets become a far better team when MKG steps on the court while Walker and Jefferson barely move the needle.

 

I could maybe agree with you on Shumpert if he was closer to 40% on 3's instead of 34%.  I would rather have the younger player who is also a better defender if neither one is very reliable beyond the arc.  MKG will be Shumpert's current age at the end of the deal he just signed.  The kid still has a ton of room to grow and it sounds like he's a hard worker so he should improve some.

[MaceCase]

My dislike for him stems from the similar hype that Oladipo received out of college.  Apparently to scouts they are the only two hardworking players in the entire NBA and through pure force of willpower both would either become the best wing in the league or be able to play any position despite having shown zero evidence of such yet.  They are "P" words to the max but because they have age and likable attitudes scouts and fans alike just feel that they are more likely to achieve their destiny even if it's a far cry from their current product.  

 

Beyond that I'm not getting some of the arguments like comparing him to a center like Vucevic.  A capable center even if one dimensional is naturally going to cost more due to the rarity of their position than a (no)3 and D wing.  The poor man's Tony Allen just got 52 million which is like wow to me.  Maybe I'm also biased because he had perhaps the worst distinction for an "elite" perimeter defender ever when he allowed both LeBron and Melo to drop career highs of 61 and 62 on him.  I mean damn, even Russell could say he walked away with the W whenever Wilt hung a double nickel on him.

[Guest]

My dislike for him stems from the similar hype that Oladipo received out of college.  Apparently to scouts they are the only two hardworking players in the entire NBA and through pure force of willpower both would either become the best wing in the league or be able to play any position despite having shown zero evidence of such yet.  They are "P" words to the max but because they have age and likable attitudes scouts and fans alike just feel that they are more likely to achieve their destiny even if it's a far cry from their current product.  

 

Beyond that I'm not getting some of the arguments like comparing him to a center like Vucevic.  A capable center even if one dimensional is naturally going to cost more due to the rarity of their position than a (no)3 and D wing.  The poor man's Tony Allen just got 52 million which is like wow to me.  Maybe I'm also biased because he had perhaps the worst distinction for an "elite" perimeter defender ever when he allowed both LeBron and Melo to drop career highs of 61 and 62 on him.  I mean damn, even Russell could say he walked away with the W whenever Wilt hung a double nickel on him.

 

 

This is a much more well-stated breakdown than my meager intellect can generate.  I hate you slightly less today.

[AHF]

Lebron and Carmelo had huge nights against him before he was old enough to buy a beer? I'm shocked! Who would have thought that a multiple mvp and big time scorer in their prime would abuse a 20 year old?

I also blame him for the 50% of minutes that he wasn't on the floor when they were. (Example: he played 18 minutes versus the Knicks when Carmelo put up his huge night in 38 minutes).

[MaceCase]

Oh, AHF. I know that you gotta protect your kitkat and all but LeBron and Carmelo have played a long time in the league and against a lot of scrub players if not a lot of scrub teams yet they just so happened to finally both coincidentally garner their career highs against a player drafted 2nd overall almost solely on his defensive ability. Something ain't adding up there (but the points were, zing!)

That he played such few minutes against the exact type of guys that he's theoretically supposed to be locking down if not just competing against (again, thus why drafted so high and now getting paid so much) is an indictment in itself. Either Clifford felt he wasn't up to the job those nights or he was saving his young lad from being shell shocked into a terrible case of PTSD.

[AHF]

Let's try to be a bit logical, though.  In a game where Carmelo plays 38 minutes he is guarded by MKG for 18 minutes or less and we want to blame that all on MKG?  Come on. 

 

If you are making that argument that MKG isn't an elite defensive stopper, then I can get on board with that.  He is a good one but Tony Allen sure wasn't an elite NBA defensive stopper at age 21 and neither is MKG.  His impact on Charlotte's defense is pretty obvious both with stats and the eye test but he still has development ahead of him to be a true stopper.  And no one is a stopper against guys like Lebron - you just try to limit the damage.

[MaceCase]

Let's try to be logical though, if you're sole current skill and reason for being in the NBA is to defend wing players yet you aren't playing against a wing that is on his way to a career high... how are you not to blame?  Is Clifford to blame?  Did he develop amnesia not once but twice to forget MKG's sole purpose in the league and affect on the team defense that he chose to not play his best option in the midst of two all time performances by the opponent?  Was the boxscore not "pretty obvious" to him?

 

You can talk about how he's not Tony Allen at his age but uhmmmmm Tony Allen wasn't getting drafted 2nd overall nor making 52 million at MKG's age neither nor is he expected to make that now.  See, we can play this both ways.  If he isn't great at the one thing that he's supposed to be great at and is markedly below average in much of the other categories then beyond him getting drafted where he was why is he subsequently making the kind of scratch that he's making now?  Thus the flabbergastery in the thread title.  Could he prove worthy of the signing if not exceed it?  Sure, potential and all that jazz, but his career track up to this point obviously brings up questions as to the sanity of the deal.

[Guest]

@AHF was like ...

 

 

@MaceCase was like ...

 

(That's really what he looks like.)

[AHF]

Let's try to be logical though, if you're sole current skill and reason for being in the NBA is to defend wing players yet you aren't playing against a wing that is on his way to a career high... how are you not to blame?  Is Clifford to blame?  Did he develop amnesia not once but twice to forget MKG's sole purpose in the league and affect on the team defense that he chose to not play his best option in the midst of two all time performances by the opponent?  Was the boxscore not "pretty obvious" to him?

 

You can talk about how he's not Tony Allen at his age but uhmmmmm Tony Allen wasn't getting drafted 2nd overall nor making 52 million at MKG's age neither nor is he expected to make that now.  See, we can play this both ways.  If he isn't great at the one thing that he's supposed to be great at and is markedly below average in much of the other categories then beyond him getting drafted where he was why is he subsequently making the kind of scratch that he's making now?  Thus the flabbergastery in the thread title.  Could he prove worthy of the signing if not exceed it?  Sure, potential and all that jazz, but his career track up to this point obviously brings up questions as to the sanity of the deal.

 

You are starting off with a faulty premise.  MKG is an elite rebounder, a plus defender and has the tools that teams are hoping will eventually enable him to be a contributor on the floor on offense.  Given that Charlotte was better on offense with him on the floor, he may not be quite the crippling hindrance you are making him out to be.

 

More to the point, you are picking out two games from his 20 year old sophmore season and trying to extrapolate some larger meaning from that.  Last year, he put up career highs in PER, WS, WS/48, TS%, RB%, A/TO ratio, PP36, RB36, FTs and a number of other categories.  Why didn't you look to last year?  Oh, because the standout performances against him happened before he turned 21 so let's reference back to an age when Tony Allen was still 4 years away from playing in the NBA.

 

First, picking two games in isolation is a bad way to draw conclusions on any player.  Second, trying to pretend that games against the league MVP during your age 20 season are predictive is a bad idea.  

 

For example, Jordan put up 59 and 61 points against Joe Dumars.  He must not have been a standout wing defender, huh?  

 

Take a HOF scoring stud and he is going to have some really good nights against poor, good, and great defenders -- because when a guy like that is really feeling it there isn't much that can be done about it.

 

So what I'm saying is not to read too much into two games.  I think this deal is an overpay for MKG but I do think he'll be far, far from the worst deal in the league if he develops anything meaningful on offense.  I'd worry more about a guy like Enes Kanter whose teams have generally been worse with him on the floor than a guy like MKG's whose teams have been way better with him on the floor.

[MaceCase]

Actually no, I'm not extrapolating anything.  My premise was that potential is overrated and I happened to make mention of those two games as tongue in cheek footnotes on his resume (I compared him to Russell for God's sake).  You, of course, then came riding in as the Wildcat White Knight with a passive aggressive response trying to make that the focus.  Of course, I enjoy tit for tats so I played along. 

 

Why didn't I make mention of his 3rd season or his overall stats in general?  Because I didn't feel the need to go that in depth on why I don't think he's good player.  You talk about his 3rd season being career highs in many categories and yet most of them still put him distinctly at or below league average....yea, that's a problem for a guy you just handed out that amount of dough to.  I thought contracts operated in that you give lucrative deals to good players and not because they happen to be a better player on your terrible team.    

[AHF]

I thought contracts operated in that you give lucrative deals to good players and not because they happen to be a better player on your terrible team.    

 

Nope.  See Tobias Harris, Enes Kanter, MKG, Reggie Jackson, Brook Lopez, Omer Asik, Iman Shumpert, etc.  Guys who teams view as important pieces or guys with potential to grow get big contracts regardless of whether they are even starters let alone average starters for their position.