Building around Reef should be the way...

[Diesel]

Three things I believe.

1. The Hawks should build around reef.

2. JT still must go.

3. If we trade Theo we have to get a bigger body.

Looking at the Knicks, I believe it's evident that Isiah has some more moves in his pocket. Namely, he's about to move Ward. Why else would he have traded for Norris. I think he waives Ameechi...uses Norris/Williams as his PGs in NY. Ward has a good deal to trade, he's basically capspace to anyone who would take him.

For that purpose, I would consider sending Nazr for Ward.

Now with Hendu back, we can think about shipping Nazr off and getting some cap relief. NY would love to have Nazr so that they can finally trade Thomas. My guess is that Thomas is traded to Dallas. Something like Eisley/Thomas/ and another player for Jamison.

[Weez]

why in the world would you trade for yet ANOTHER pg who can't play alongside JT nor is clearly that much ahead of him in terms of ability?

this proposal/idea does nothing unless immediately followed with a JT trade...which we all know is quite hard to do in season.

[Diesel]

Namely because:

1. This season is already in the dumps. I don't think we can get Playoffs from this season. What we should try to do then is raise the value of our player and cut some salary.

Moving Nazr for Ward is a Salary Cutting Move. We remove 6 Million dollars from our already LOW cap by the end of the season. That means that we will be at about 36 Million plus JT's salary... which might put us at about 41. We would have a few million to play with under the cap plus a High draft pick.

But mainly because Ward is a Better defender than both JT and JV. Ward is a better shooter than JV. Ward Runs offense better than JT or JV. We put in a backcourt of Ward/JT what we will get back is Improved offense because Ward would run the offense and JT will play the SG. JT's numbers will increase because there would be a better Ballhandler in the backcourt with him. Defensively, we will have some problems, but Ward is better than JV.

The end result however is that in the offseason, we will be able to move JT. His value should be higher because his BYC status would be lower (because his deal is frontloaded, I don't know how that will effect his BYC status). Also, His stats would be better because Ward would actually have run the offense and JT would have moved to his more comfortable position.

The only harm is the slower development of DD, Hansen, and Diaw, but you can also play them more and lessen JV's, Glover's, and Jax's minutes.

In the offseason, we lose the contracts of Glover, Ward, JV, and that's about 8 million right there. We trade JT. We consider trades on Theo. We leave Hendu unprotected.

We build around Reef.

[TheDude]

i do this in a heartbeat. we get rid of nazr(and let's be honest, he's injured alot and can be replaced by henderson)..

and we pick up a point to try something different but better yet, get his numbers off the books...

it gives the new owners something to work with in turning the franchise around..

please please please someone make this happen.

[Weez]

--"1. This season is already in the dumps. I don't think we can get Playoffs from this season.

agreed.

--What we should try to do then is raise the value of our player and cut some salary."

quite possibly

--Moving Nazr for Ward is a Salary Cutting Move. We remove 6 Million dollars from our already LOW cap by the end of the season. That means that we will be at about 36 Million plus JT's salary... which might put us at about 41. We would have a few million to play with under the cap plus a High draft pick.

here's where things start to go wrong. 41 million puts us under the cap...but not greatly.

--But mainly because Ward is a Better defender than both JT and JV. Ward is a better shooter than JV.

not by much, esp. on the prior. and JV generally takes shots solely within the offense.

--Ward Runs offense better than JT or JV (again not significantly). We put in a backcourt of Ward/JT what we will get back is Improved offense because Ward would run the offense and JT will play the SG. JT's numbers will increase because there would be a better Ballhandler in the backcourt with him. Defensively, we will have some problems, but Ward is better than JV.

the team will get killed because we've already shown we can't play a minime bc for extended periods of time. you know that even if the trade were made, that we wouldn't play Ward much ~ because a larger guard has to play with one of them most of the time. how would the numbers change much if the pt arrangements didn't change significantly much either...and they couldn't by necessity.

--The end result however is that in the offseason, we will be able to move JT. His value should be higher because his BYC status would be lower (because his deal is frontloaded, I don't know how that will effect his BYC status). Also, His stats would be better because Ward would actually have run the offense and JT would have moved to his more comfortable position.

his stats wouldnt' change significantly from what they are now for the prestated reasons. And Ward running the point with JT at sg (during limited time, as we currently do with JV) would not change things much, as Ward isn't that much better of a pg. JT's byc status expires exactly one year from the signig of his deal, htus it's not really any more possible to trade him in the magical "offseason" than it is now...cause it' won't expire until what, late august?

--The only harm is the slower development of DD, Hansen, and Diaw, but you can also play them more and lessen JV's, Glover's, and Jax's minutes.

you mean slow the development of the only players that we'll definitely have back next year? I mean, all are under contract except SJax, and do you really think he's going to risk free agency? Ward and JV could be gone again, and under your plan JT's traded, leaving us only DD to run the point...unless you want to try and find one in free agency? trade? cause you know most decent pg's are easy to come by...any draft ideas?

--In the offseason, we lose the contracts of Glover, Ward, JV, and that's about 8 million right there. We trade JT. We consider trades on Theo. We leave Hendu unprotected.

all this does is strip mine the team of talent, completly setting us in rebuilding mode again...but you hadn't considered that we can't trade JT until august. so your'e going into this offseason with essentially the same crew, plus Diaw, as you had starting this one. I see no major changes except the subtraction of our bu c (where hendu hasn't been) without regaining another one and the gain of some limited cap space that is of limited use, considering how bad the team is.

without some dynamic changes, no fa's going to want to come here, and that is sitll the truth. iether through trade or draft, players must be acquired. this may or may not require risky moves, but certainly something has to be done. trading for Ward and adding another moderatly servicable pg is not the answer: never trade big for small. Nazr can get us a [censored] of a lot more than just a little bit of cap space ~ he's worth more than just getting out of his contract, which is all you seem to want to do.

[Diesel]

This season is in the dumps so a discussion on the pluses and minuses of Ward vs. Vaughn is a waste of time Weez.

The only thing that really matters is can Ward handle the offense well enough to make JT look good. I say Yes. Ward is a better three point shooter. Ward is a better man on man defender. Will we get killed? Possibly but not as bad as we would with Vaughn.

The fine point is the money. Getting under the cap is a great start. Like I said before, we would Lose 8 million in Cap money with Ward/Vaughn/Glover. That would put us at about 33 Million (not considering JT's salary). I don't consider JT's salary because I'm not exactly sure how much he is slated to make next season. It's not much. I want to say it's only 5 million. Still being 5 million under the cap is good for something. Mainly we can either Trade Theo and get further under the cap or we can help make deals happen. The point is that we have flexibility. There will be many players who we will be able to get or trade for... Even BYC players.

Secondly...

How much value does Nazr add to the team?

I like Nazr, but truthfully, not much.. because we are losers.

[Weez]

--The only thing that really matters is can Ward handle the offense well enough to make JT look good. I say Yes. Ward is a better three point shooter. Ward is a better man on man defender. Will we get killed? Possibly but not as bad as we would with Vaughn.

but it's like I said, we WON'T play the Ward/JT combo any more than we currently do the JV/JT one now...even if it were to be an upgrade from the current version of minime, that backcourt in general cannot compete and therefore you won't see it that much. Stotts can't afford to just throw the team out to slaughter unless you give him an extension, and no smart mgt., esp. not a new one, is going to ask their players to go out there without their most competitive lineup so that they can lose more games/boost certain players' stats in order to be tradedto other teams (while possibly decreasing their own)

Nazr may not add a lot, but niether does cap space, as we can't bring in free agents, not with our current "level of excitement." Nazr IS worth more in a trade than capspace...could at least get a pick of some description in the first round...not just space for another player like Jackson who's more than likely not going to be worth the time/be able to develop and therefore not help a struggling team.

some risks will have to be made to get out of this quandry.

[Diesel]

Again, Capspace does matter. Because Capspace gives us flexibility. We can now consider BYC players, broker deals, and etc.

The problem is that you're approaching this idea as if Stotts has a chance in [censored] of staying anyway. You never know, Ward might be just the thing that JT needs to be a better player. I wouldn't say the same about JV because JV is far too cautious in scoring. Take the hint from Dallas, if you are going to be a team that plays players out of position for Offensive sake, then make sure that you can score at at least 4 of 5 position. They did that last year with NVE and this year with Walker. That's called going all out on offense.

Right now, if we stick to what we have, we will do no better and we will not be in a particularly strong positon for Free agency.

You say there is no cap gain.

Well, if you really do the math...

If all we have is 6.0 Million under the cap...

We are capable of offering some player MORE than the MCE that many of the other teams in FACy will be offering PLUS we still have a MCE to offer to another player.

However if we stick with what we got, we have NOTHING but those same 2 million to try to get somebody of JV and DG's caliber.

[TRUATLFAN]

I have heard you suggest. Reef puts up numbers but is not smart enough to win the close games. Reef lives at the line! We all know that you don't get the cry baby calls in the playoffs when you live at the line ie. Karl Malone. To be honest with all of the true atl fans out there REEF NEEDS TO GO. I don't know if it is the injury that has caused his hops to go away, but something is not there. HE LEADS THE LEAGUE IN GETTING HIS SHOTS BLOCKED! What kind of leader of a team can he be. This leader that you say that we should "Rebuild around" doesn't even run down the court after he throws the ball to the other team. Man I can't say enough about how dumb of a suggestion that is to rebuild around Reef.

BTW, Happy New Year to all the Hawksquawk members!

[Playmaker0017]

Do you even watch these games?

Reef lives at the line - sure.

He also shoots 50%. He also shoots 85%+ from the line.

He also turns the ball over a team low of 2.3 times a game.

At what point is he so out of control and awful?

He is the fifth most efficient player in the league.

He plays solid defense this year.

You are WAY off base, in my opinion.

Play.

[Diesel]

No, I disagree. I think you have fallen into believing the false criticisms on Reef and have not watched. When the team plays well it's because Reef is being showcased. When the team plays badly it because they have gone away from Reef.

In order to build around Reef, you have to have the right players in place. That means you need a PG that can get him the ball. You need a C who can rebound more than 7 rpg. You need a SG who can move without the ball and Shoot.

Reef is not perfect, but he's better than a lot of what we had before and he's better than a lot in the league. For Instance, I wouldn't be so apt to build around Walker. I think Walker has found his niche' in Dallas. I wouldn't even build around Jermaine Oneal. Oneal cannot create his own offense. But if you watch Reef, you would notice that he's [censored] near unstoppable when he gets the ball in his spot. That's the kind of thing you build around.

We should learn from Sacramento.

They had a young PF who wasn't quite an allstar in Webber. I mean they traded old man Richmond for him. And what they have done is build a team around him that's so good that they don't even need him to win. However, when Webber comes back (if he's 100%) the Kings will be probably unbeatable.

Here, we are looking like we are building around JT....

[TRUATLFAN]

Well, in the comparison to Webber, Reef falls way short. Mainly because Reef can't pass out of a double team, or even pass well at all for that matter. However, I do agree that Reef is almost unstopable in his few spots. But, teams (well coached teams) know that they can send a double team at him and he will nut up.

I also agree with you that Reef is the back bone of this team and we do not win when he is off. But because of his lack of abilty or heart on the defencive end he is just as much as a cancer as JT. Sometimes Reef our leader stays down the court arguing with the Ref after he has just threw the ball away instead of getting down the court and causes the team to go down even more.

I don't want to seem like I am saying that Reef is a bad player, I am just saying that he is not smart enough to be a on the court leader for the team like a CWebb or KG.

[TRUATLFAN]

Yes I watch the games, almost all as sad as that is. And I know he also shoots 50%. He also shoots 85%+ from the line. But tell me this, what new moves have you seen Reef develop? We know his moves and so does the players in the league that has to defend him. True enough, he gets his numbers but when they count the most, he is not the man. If he can't find the open man when he is doubled than the answer is simple for the opponets to stop us. Double Reef when he puts the ball on the ground. When teams do this he loses the ball or throws it away. Teams don't have to do this but at the crital times in the game to win and Reef is not smart enough to stop it consistanly.

[Playmaker0017]

True,

I don't see your point.

What new moves need to be created? How many new moves does Duncan showcase or Garnett? Plus, he is still shooting 50% and getting to the line... so, his percentage is going up and he is scoring easier. I can't see where he would need new moves or need to change things up.

As for Reef getting points in "crunch time" people have this stigma. Let's face it... first, Reef hasn't been in many situations like that. When he has, he has success and he has failure. Second, in situations like that... a team should not rely on a PF. Whether the PF is Duncan, Garnett or O'Neal. None of those players are "apt" during that time. During that time, teams rely on a player who can create off the dribble. Those is simple basketball fundamentals.

As for doubling and passing the ball out of bounds.... you must be lying about watching the games. Reef has faced a constant double throughout the year and is averaging career lows in turnovers. How is this? In Vancouver, Reef faced doubles and triples EVERY NIGHT. He was less of a passer then.

Look, I have a suggestion - take that "Slam" magazine from like 1998 and throw it away. It is old material.

Reef's only problem as a player today is that he has a pretty awful system to work with.

Play.

[Weez]

Play pretty much hits it on the head when talking about crunch time and pf's. Even Shaq, the most dominant man in the game right now, and in a while, needs Kobe for the same reason...because teams can make it very difficult for their opponents to get the ball in to a post scorer (difficult not impossible), and forcing things leads only to to's and failed possessions when you need them the most.

JT could possibly be our man...but he's a sg, and not a pg.

[cyman3]

u guys can bash him all u want about not being a leader... that characteristic is something ur BORN with...

since Reef isint jacking up shots like others, were just lookin for anytype of mistake in Reefs game... every player in the NBA has a weakness. but as we all know, Reefs strengths make up his weaknesses.

hes absolutely a keeper... w/o Reef,

we are 0-HowEverManyGamesWePlayed

but the thing is.. if we cant rebuild within 3 years, isint it in the best interest to move Reef?

thats how i see it.

if theres a clear plan to rebuild and move in the right direction as a franchise within 3 years, we HAVE to work around Reef.

if not, he has the most trade value on our team... i think its best we trade him.

[Weez]

it's that logic that fueled my proposing trading him for artest and harrington, croshere, guys with promise (the latter incentive for them to make the trade) and then going after Sheed/draft to further the cause.

at some point, regardless of the reasons, you have to realize that the players assembled aren't working.

[TRUATLFAN]

for superman or something. He is good at his position and he is the most consistant player on our team. I guess when you are tired of losing and tired of the team looking so bad you bash what you got. I am sorry for being that sinceless basher.

However, I am a Hawks fan for life and I am hurting, I have been hurting since "The Human Highlight" was traded.

Please forgive me!

[Lrenfro]

Tru we understand your pain. In the past Reef has made bad decisions. It is easy to carry a negative past with you. It is hard to see when someone has improved when we are still loosing. And if you are like me I don't pay much attention to stats. I watch ever game. I know that his contribution does not seem to help however you must know that all teams do their homework. They watch tapes. They know if we make Reef look bad then the team looks bad. They focus on Reef. It makes him look bad because he is so easy to pick on. Not to say anything bad about the supporting cast it is just everyone knows that reef is the nucleolus and if we stop him we stop the hawks.