Search is over; Pierce is the man!

[sturt]

4 hours ago, Sothron said:

It does speak volumes that no player has said anything about Bud leaving. He quit on them. He's just like Bobby f'ing Petrino.

I must have terrible selective memory here... you mean, it's actually common that when a coach leaves, the players of the team the coach left behind will talk openly about their feelings... good or for that matter bad.... about that coach?

I just can't think of an occasion where that's happened, other than the more specific occasion of a coach being fired, and thereafter players commenting that they feel responsible for letting the coach down by not winning more games. That, of course, would be a very odd thing for anyone on this predestined-to-fail team to say. Or, there's also the occasion when a coach has been so openly despised while he was with the team, the players might pile on even more so after he leaves.

Seriously... am I just ignoring the obvious here, and as suggested, we should normally hear players talking about how they loved playing for the coach, even as they know they're going to be playing for someone else soon?

That's not to say Bud didn't quit. Maybe he did. Or maybe he was pushed out. We'll never know because neither he nor Schlenk are ever going to reveal that entire picture, at least not in the short term. There are viable arguments both ways, and it's even plausible that the mutual agreement thing is the most accurate way to characterize it. But for my part, I still believe Bud was all in or nearly all in until something happened after the AS break to change his mind.

 

 

[Jungle Jack]

In regards to not hearing much about Budenholzer's perception amongst players, discounting NBA twitter it seems like him being so below the radar is by design of his "team".  Seemingly every coach has acolytes usually a player who perhaps did not sync with the previous regime and did not get as much playing time.  How could Hardaway not be a big fan for instance?  

 

Also, I certainly don't remember many/any articles of Hawks being disgruntled by him.  While Bud's salary is high for an HC, it is peanuts compared to the players.  Lue was just remarking about the salary disparity and its rarity as the "boss" is invariably paid more in most instances.  That is, if the majority of players did not like him, I would find it hard to believe he would be a prospect for the Raptors or really anywhere.

[sturt]

5 hours ago, DBac said:

On point 1.. fair enough. I wasn't saying it as if it was special, but our last coach didn't want to be here.

On 3, the style of the offense is important in making sure that these guys develop properly. And plus I'm not overly interested in planning for the next coach right now, I'd much rather hope Lloyd can just keep the job.

And on point 1, I'm just being a pit bull and not letting go of the notion that he spoke with such passion mid-season that it told/tells me something happened in the relationship between the coach and the front office/owner in the 2nd half of the season to make it so neither side wanted him to be here. I can't know who initiated the "this isn't working" conversation, any more than anyone else here, and I think it's silly when people try to speak with confidence that they do know.

On point 3, I guess I think any offensive system is imperiled and going to be prone to consistently look bad when the priority is on player development. So, yes, we agree it's important to have a system you embrace for the long-term so that when the team is ready to re-engage a true contender mindset, those players aren't having to learn a whole new offense under a new coach.

History says there will be a new coach at that point, in the same way that history said that the new GM was going to go get another coach sooner than later.

If there's any lesson we should take from the contrast between last off-season and this off-season already it's that our situation is not immune from the lessons of NBA history. Practically no one here was willing to ascend to the possibility that Bud had become an outsider to the long-term plans in June 2017.

Having said that.... whatever questions Pierce answered in the interview about offensive system, I'm sure he was smart enough to talk a lot about how much he admires Golden State. So, take that for what it's worth, right? Seems highly likely, at least, he's going to try to run something that looks more D'Antoni than it looks like Woodson.

But it's not like we're hiring a disciple of a system in the way that Bud was a disciple of a system, of course. Therein lies some of the push back against instant optimism, and especially as-if a new coach like this has anything but long odds where it concerns a second contract. Like 90% (just a guess, but an informed guess) of assistant coaches getting their first NBA job, there's nothing actually that unique or special about the extant philosophy he's bringing to the job.... rather, he's the same collection/mish-mash that most are.

It's not saying there isn't the occasional Popovich outlier, and it's not saying anyone should be down on the hire necessarily. It's only saying expectations are low, and practically by definition of the team's current status.

So, I sum it up this way. One, it's true there's nothing wrong with hoping Pierce significantly exceeds expectations... any more than, two, there's anything wrong with admitting history stands ready to add him to the heaping pile of NBA assistant coaches hired to be head coach in the midst of a team's recession and whose first contract was their last contract.

Or another way... in Parcells speak (ie, football terms)... Pierce is a JAG. Until he proves otherwise, and unfortunately for his career, he's facing an automatically brutal climate to allow him to prove otherwise.

[EazyRoc]

7 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Heck I go all the way back to John Drew, Eddie Johnson, Steve Hawes, Dan Roundtree, Tom McMillen, Chalie Criss, Terry Furlow days

Who ?!

[Buzzard]

7 hours ago, sturt said:

No problem here with that part.

In fact, I would sit back and enjoy this, as I've routinely done throughout my life when my Hawks or my NFL or MLB teams were going through a player development series of seasons...

That is, if only Schlenk was giving me some reason to feel some confidence in his judgment and his own confidence in his own confidence. Instead, he expresses himself in ways that are more typical of someone who isn't all that persuaded he knows what he's doing. There's a palpable if not glaring timidity about him as I watch him in front of cameras and hear his words.

So I regrettably can't enjoy this part of the ride... too great a sense that we're only going to be spinning around in circles for awhile rather than making progress.

I think Schlenk's  reaction clearly shows Bud threw threw him for a loop. Bud had his interview suits pressed and packed before the exit interview words had left his players mouth. Ressler has moved on, Schlenk has moved on. the players have moved on.  It is time we moved on.

Schlenk drafted Collins 19th; who could end up being better than Bud's 12th pick in Prince and Bud's 21st pick in Bembry. Now he has hired a coach. Time will tell. I am going to try and enjoy this part of the process. With the draft comes hope. Schlenk has drafted well once; lets see if he can keep that rolling!

[Buzzard]

29 minutes ago, sturt said:

And on point 1, I'm just being a pit bull and not letting go of the notion that he spoke with such passion mid-season that it told/tells me something happened in the relationship between the coach and the front office/owner in the 2nd half of the season to make it so neither side wanted him to be here. I can't know who initiated the "this isn't working" conversation, any more than anyone else here, and I think it's silly when people try to speak with confidence that they do know.

 

So, I sum it up this way. One, it's true there's nothing wrong with hoping Pierce significantly exceeds expectations... any more than, two, there's anything wrong with admitting history stands ready to add him to the heaping pile of NBA assistant coaches hired to be head coach in the midst of a team's recession and whose first contract was their last contract.

Or another way... in Parcells speak (ie, football terms)... Pierce is a JAG. Until he proves otherwise, and unfortunately for his career, he's facing an automatically brutal climate to allow him to prove otherwise.

I cannot say who initiated that conversation either; but I do see the 2nd half as Bud totally blowing up our lottery odds. Was that Bud undermining management or was that Bud just coaching a bad team up? That is a question no one but Bud can answer. I do think it reflects more bad judgement on him whether he was playing a mind game or not.

I do not think it is anymore brutal than walking into OKC. New coaches, no matter what type of team they get have to excel. Billy Donovan will be out soon if he does not excel in the same manner that Pierce will be out if he does not excel. Expectations will be different; but they will also be high when compared to where their teams are when they took over.

[sturt]

20 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I think Schlenk's  reaction clearly shows Bud threw threw him for a loop. Bud had his interview suits pressed and packed before the exit interview words had left his players mouth.

I try to be objective about what I can know, and what I can only offer an opinion about.

You're free to your opinion on that, and I can acknowledge that it may have been as you think it was.

But to interject the word "clearly" suggests to me that you're not prepared to acknowledge you don't actually know how it went down.... and it's objective to say that that's not very objective on your part.

[sturt]

4 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I cannot say who initiated that conversation either; but I do see the 2nd half as Bud totally blowing up our lottery odds. Was that Bud undermining management or was that Bud just coaching a bad team up? That is a question no one but Bud can answer. I do think it reflects more bad judgement on him whether he was playing a mind game or not.

Good on you to, this time, acknowledge you can't say what, in fact, you can't say with any clarity.

And, I have to agree with the rest of that too... all viable observation and questions.

[Buzzard]

10 minutes ago, sturt said:

I try to be objective about what I can know, and what I can only offer an opinion about.

You're free to your opinion on that, and I can acknowledge that it may have been as you think it was.

But to interject the word "clearly" suggests to me that you're not prepared to acknowledge you don't actually know how it went down.... and it's objective to say that that's not very objective on your part.

Travis had that deer in a headlights look. I don't think it is because that is the way he always looks. At least when I saw him when he was hired he did not look that way. He seems to be a little on the nerdy/geek side in the intelligent form of those words; not the derogatory form. But lacking confidence or being fearful; no that is not how I have seen him in the past.

He looked like he had been thrown for a loop; and since Bud was the one out interviewing and he just had to let Bud go, I interjected the whole fiasco with Bud is what caused that look.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Buzzard

[Afro]

Schlenk is very awkward. Listen to him on 92.9 where there is zero pressure. He's the same way as he is in press conferences. 

Speaking to the media isn't really the biggest requirement for a GM. Sure, he might not instill confidence in some, but if he's doing a good job building the team....does it matter? 

I'll throw out another Atlanta GM, Copolella. He was strange, rubbed people the wrong way, but put together a pretty stellar roster for the braves as we're now seeing. *Cheating* aside, I'd take a weirdo GM if he can do his job that well. 

[thecampster]

11 hours ago, kg01 said:

In my short time here, I've learned not to bother with logic and reason with some.

I can't like this enough.

[rd79]

Is this the big "I'm a Hawks fan since..." topic?

I'm a Hawks fan since the day the one and only, future HOFer Dennis Schröder was drafted by former GM Ferry. Back in the day we had a New Coach also who even became COTY later. 

I had no feed for the draft, was o. Vacation and was checking twitter all night until Dennis was finally drafted by a Team I barely knew anything about. 

The following five seasons I watched nearly every game of them live and I will stay a fan forever... Ehhh... I mean... at least until Dennis gets traded...

[Buzzard]

8 minutes ago, rd79 said:

Is this the big "I'm a Hawks fan since..." topic?

I'm a Hawks fan since the day the one and only, future HOFer Dennis Schröder was drafted by former GM Ferry. Back in the day we had a New Coach also who even became COTY later. 

I had no feed for the draft, was o. Vacation and was checking twitter all night until Dennis was finally drafted by a Team I barely knew anything about. 

The following five seasons I watched nearly every game of them live and I will stay a fan forever... Ehhh... I mean... at least until Dennis gets traded...

His trade value is at an all time low so I have to hope Lloyd does a better job with him than Bud did.

If Dennis does not improve his efficiency and tone down his turn overs he may be another role player making way to much money. If he fixes those two things, he may be our next all-star.

[Peoriabird]

37 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

His trade value is at an all time low so I have to hope Lloyd does a better job with him than Bud did.

 

Can't judge Dennis during a tank year but I feel that Dennis did not play hard for Bud most of the time last year. My guess is that you will see a different Dennis this year under LP.  Prince too

[EazyRoc]

53 minutes ago, rd79 said:

Is this the big "I'm a Hawks fan since..." topic?

I'm a Hawks fan since the day the one and only, future HOFer Dennis Schröder was drafted by former GM Ferry. Back in the day we had a New Coach also who even became COTY later. 

I had no feed for the draft, was o. Vacation and was checking twitter all night until Dennis was finally drafted by a Team I barely knew anything about. 

The following five seasons I watched nearly every game of them live and I will stay a fan forever... Ehhh... I mean... at least until Dennis gets traded...

Nah it wasn’t. We were saying it to make a point. Those of us who’ve been fans for over a decade remember the Hawks being notoriously BAD and still rooted for them. There’s another group of posters who believe we will groan and complain through this process because we won’t win a bunch of games. 

[Buzzard]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

Can't judge Dennis during a tank year but I feel that Dennis did not play hard for Bud most of the time last year. My guess is that you will see a different Dennis this year under LP.  Prince too

I think Dennis's attitude shifted for the worse as well. He is only 24 and I hope Lloyd can get him to embrace a leadership role on a very young team.

[Peoriabird]

11 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I think Dennis's attitude shifted for the worse as well. He is only 24 and I hope Lloyd can get him to embrace a leadership role on a very young team.

It wasn't just Dennis...I think Prince's attitude shifted too.  Truthfully, I looking forward to seeing these guys grow under our new coach.  They can't play worse or care less on defense than last year.

[rd79]

1 hour ago, EazyRoc said:

Nah it wasn’t. We were saying it to make a point. Those of us who’ve been fans for over a decade remember the Hawks being notoriously BAD and still rooted for them. There’s another group of posters who believe we will groan and complain through this process because we won’t win a bunch of games. 

I'm totally aware of that. I just wanted to have some fun... Who knows when we will have some - while watching the Hawks - again 

[sturt]

3 hours ago, Buzzard said:

Travis had that deer in a headlights look. I don't think it is because that is the way he always looks. At least when I saw him when he was hired he did not look that way. He seems to be a little on the nerdy/geek side in the intelligent form of those words; not the derogatory form. But lacking confidence or being fearful; no that is not how I have seen him in the past.

He looked like he had been thrown for a loop; and since Bud was the one out interviewing and he just had to let Bud go, I interjected the whole fiasco with Bud is what caused that look.

I'll grant that possibility. Maybe so.

And I totally agree.... he seemed like a person who had been sideswiped.... or, just as plausible, to me anyway... a person who just made a monumental decision that he was now nervous about answering to.

Impose into the narrative the Steve Koonin interview not that long before the "mutual agreement" was released... the one where Koonin implied that he knew something about the whole drama that would eventually be made public and would make everyone feel positive about the situation... and the head scratching intensifies.

And I agree that I saw a different person when he was first introduced, and for the first several weeks after. Honestly, that deer headlights look, from where I sit, has been a pretty consistent look for the better part of the year.... maybe the time of the Jamal Crawford release(?). I'm sure there have been ebbs and flows in that regard, but the ebbs have been noticeable... I've found myself talking about that a lot in the last 12 hours here. It might actually be meaningless in the big picture and how the story ends, but it would do a lot for my confidence if I only could see a man who himself was confident.

Finishing up, the person that quite possibly, if not probably, had the most to do with all of this is Ressler.

The thrown-for-a-loop thing could easily be a function of Ressler unexpectedly imposing a decision on both Schlenk and Bud.... which might explain why Koonin thought things were going to evolve into something very positive, and then, it didn't.

[Flight]

The fact that a number of players from other teams are giving us props for the hire is actually really encouraging. I’m excited to see what Pierce can do with us going forward.