Hey Traceman, here is that list you wanted

[Admin]

We need either a SG or a SF that can score 20 ppg, has the size needed to play with Dickau at PG, and can defend. I am going to make this list with everyone who scored either more than JT or within 1 point less than JT last year.....

Top 30 Scorers from last year

1. Allen Iverson 31.4

2. Shaquille O'Neal 27.2

3. Paul Pierce 26.1

4. Tracy McGrady 25.6

5. Tim Duncan 25.5

6. Kobe Bryant 25.2

7. Dirk Nowitzki 23.4

8. Karl Malone 22.4

9. Antoine Walker 22.1

9. Gary Payton 22.1

11. Ray Allen 21.8

12. Cuttino Mobley 21.7

13. Jerry Stackhouse 21.4

14. Shareef Abdur-Rahim 21.2

14. Predrag Stojakovic 21.2

14. Kevin Garnett 21.2

17. Michael Finley 20.6

18. Jalen Rose 20.4

18. Stephon Marbury 20.4

18. Allan Houston 20.4

21. Antawn Jamison 19.7

21. Sam Cassell 19.7

23. Latrell Sprewell 19.4

24. Jason Terry 19.3

24. Rasheed Wallace 19.3

26. Shawn Marion 19.1

27. Jermaine O'Neal 19.0

28. Wally Szczerbiak 18.7

29. Nick Van Exel 18.4

30. Eddie Jones 18.3

Now, we have to take that list and break it down to only include SG's and SF's.

1. Allen Iverson 31.4

2. Shaquille O'Neal 27.2

3. Paul Pierce 26.1

4. Tracy McGrady 25.6

5. Tim Duncan 25.5

6. Kobe Bryant 25.2

7. Dirk Nowitzki 23.4

8. Karl Malone 22.4

9. Antoine Walker 22.1

9. Gary Payton 22.1

11. Ray Allen 21.8

12. Cuttino Mobley 21.7

13. Jerry Stackhouse 21.4

14. Shareef Abdur-Rahim 21.2

14. Predrag Stojakovic 21.2

14. Kevin Garnett 21.2

17. Michael Finley 20.6

18. Jalen Rose 20.4

18. Stephon Marbury 20.4

18. Allan Houston 20.4

21. Antawn Jamison 19.7

21. Sam Cassell 19.7

23. Latrell Sprewell 19.4

24. Jason Terry 19.3

24. Rasheed Wallace 19.3

26. Shawn Marion 19.1

27. Jermaine O'Neal 19.0

28. Wally Szczerbiak 18.7

29. Nick Van Exel 18.4

30. Eddie Jones 18.3

So, taking out all centers, power forwards, point guards and of course JT, that leaves us with 17 players. Also, gotta take out Iverson because he is too short.

1. Paul Pierce 26.1

2. Tracy McGrady 25.6

3. Kobe Bryant 25.2

4. Dirk Nowitzki 23.4

5. Ray Allen 21.8

6. Cuttino Mobley 21.7

7. Jerry Stackhouse 21.4

8. Predrag Stojakovic 21.2

9. Michael Finley 20.6

10. Jalen Rose 20.4

11. Allan Houston 20.4

12. Antawn Jamison 19.7

13. Latrell Sprewell 19.4

14. Shawn Marion 19.1

15. Wally Szczerbiak 18.7

16. Eddie Jones 18.3

Now we have to look at which players we can possibly acquire. So, lets cut out the guys we have no shot at getting without giving up more than JT/Nazr/filler

1. Paul Pierce 26.1

2. Tracy McGrady 25.6

3. Kobe Bryant 25.2

4. Dirk Nowitzki 23.4

5. Ray Allen 21.8

6. Cuttino Mobley 21.7

7. Jerry Stackhouse 21.4

8. Predrag Stojakovic 21.2

9. Michael Finley 20.6

10. Jalen Rose 20.4

11. Allan Houston 20.4

12. Antawn Jamison 19.7

13. Latrell Sprewell 19.4

14. Shawn Marion 19.1

15. Wally Szczerbiak 18.7

16. Eddie Jones 18.3

So, now that leaves us with 7 potential guys left

1. Jerry Stackhouse 21.4

2. Allan Houston 20.4

3. Antawn Jamison 19.7

4. Latrell Sprewell 19.4

5. Shawn Marion 19.1

6. Wally Szczerbiak 18.7

7. Eddie Jones 18.3

With Detroit recently signing Billups I would say that they are probably out of the market for a PG, so that takes us down to 6.

1. Allan Houston 20.4

2. Antawn Jamison 19.7

3. Latrell Sprewell 19.4

4. Shawn Marion 19.1

5. Wally Szczerbiak 18.7

6. Eddie Jones 18.3

New York and Golden State are both in need of good Point Guards, and if Marbury is traded to Minnesota or someplace else Phoenix may be in the market. If Minnesota isnt able to get Marbury or another PG, they will be in the market. Miami definitely has a need for a PG. We can also add Lamar Odom to this list because he is a definite 20PPG scorer, or very close to that when healthy. There are also a few more guys we can add that are close to 20ppg scorers and may be very soon.

1. Allan Houston 20.4

2. Antawn Jamison 19.7

3. Latrell Sprewell 19.4

4. Shawn Marion 19.1

5. Wally Szczerbiak 18.7

6. Eddie Jones 18.3

7. Lamar Odom 17.7 (last fully healthy season)

8. Bonzi Wells 17.0

9. Rashard Lewis 16.8

10. Lamond Murray 16.6

11. Keith Van Horn 14.8

I would say that we cannot get Houston because of salary reasons and he doesnt play good defense anyway. Murray and Van Horn are not good defenders either, so they are going to come right back off the list, which leaves us at 8 players. Wally world is not a great defender, but he is good enough to remain on the list.

1. Antawn Jamison 19.7

2. Latrell Sprewell 19.4

3. Shawn Marion 19.1

4. Wally Szczerbiak 18.7

5. Eddie Jones 18.3

6. Lamar Odom 17.7 (last fully healthy season)

7. Bonzi Wells 17.0

8. Rashard Lewis 16.8

So Traceman, I would say that realistically these are about the only players in the league that would fit the mold of what we are looking for. What do you think about these guys in a possible trade for the JT package?

[uga2006]

Odom,Marion and Wells are the only ones I would consider but you cant replace the Haks heart and soul in a trade.

[BlackHawkDown]

Odom Marion and Wells will all require us to give up a qaulity player these players are catching undeserved flack and truth be know I'm sure their GMs know it. I would kill to pull of a trade for Odom and Marion if we could get them for DG and DJ but I doubt that would happen so again I reiterate what I have said for some time if we are patient some opportunities will open up. I really like the idea of Miller/Nazr trade if we package cash in the deal, instead of wasting it on the mid level exception. We can pull it off + not end up with some hack in the trade as filler.

PS We should have keptr JV as trade bait he could have really helped bring in some value. Goodbye CAL HANNO, only Kukoc CC and Kruger to get rid of now. I've given up hope of getting rid of Hendu anytime soon.

[KB21]

His game is a bad mix for what will be the make up of this team unless they kept Jason Terry. Even then, I don't want to add his unreliability due to his mental instability and drug problems. Lamar Odom is a complete quack, and he'd have to pass a battery of psychiatric evaluations before I even give him a second look.

As far as his game goes, he's not the equivalent of JT as a scorer or leader. Jason Terry can and has taken over games in the fourth quarter. He can go for 35-40 points at a moments notice. Lamar Odom can't do this. Odom is a guy who scores well when he isn't the main option. He's better at creating for others and deferring the ball. When it comes to crunch time in the fourth Q, who on the Hawks can be relied upon to take over the game? Shareef, as great as he is as a player, has proven that he's not clutch when the game is on the line. JT has proven this.

So, you have to revise that list and go with the players who can take over a game at the end.

Latrell Sprewell is a guy who can do this, but his age makes that trade a senseless trade.

[Traceman]

Of the 8 guys you listed, I'd only CONSIDER trading JT for 4 of them: Marion, Jones, Odom and Lewis.

Jamison is simply not as good a player and he has postion issues just as JT does.

Spree's too old and on the decline.

Sczerbiak is okay but I don't think he's going t get much better plus he selfish and can't get along with his teamates.

Wells is very talented but he's a headcase.

Now for the 4 possibles:

Eddie Jones fits what we need VERY well on paper but look at his track record. His teams have underachieved everywhere he's ever been. LA, CHA & MIA. He hasn't been able to get his team over the hump. I am beginning to wonder if he can be more than a very good role player. I'd LOVE to have him in ADDITION to JT, I'm just no so sure I'd trade JT FOR him.

Lewis has the potential to be a very good player and I like the fact that he would play SF. He looked FAR better than JT on a team full of superstars in the Goodwill Games but during the season last year, JT looked like the better player. I like Lewis a lot but I'm not sure trading JT for him would make us better.

Odom would be GREAT from a talent standpoint and if he didn't have the off court issues, I'd do this deal without blinking. That being said, he DOES have the off court issues and one more screw up could see him looking at a lengthy suspension. If LAC included another quality player such as Wilcox or Magette, I'd PROBABLY pull the trigger.

Marion would be a no brainer. I'd do that deal in a heartbeat. He's the only one of the 8 that I'd trade JT for without any hesitation whatsoever. I just can't imagine why PHO would trade him though.

I can certainly see where you and others might disagree with me on this issue but I value JT and what he brings to the table very much. It would take a lot for me to trade him if I were the Hawks GM. I honestly hope the guy retires a Hawk.

Again, very well thought out analysis. EXCELLENT post.

[Admin]

Thanks Traceman, great thoughts on those players, let me give you mine now......

I totally agree 100% on the Matrix trade, and I seriously doubt anyone other than Hawksfreak from an Atlanta fans perspective would turn that trade down. He is an amazing player and someday soon he will have a breakout season and really take over. He is the only one I give up JT for without hesitating also.

Odom, great talent but he has major off the court baggage, plus he isnt the picture of perfect health either. Like KB said I would really drill him with a battery of tests and I would have everyone in the organization talk with him and see where his head is at first before making a trade for him. Talent wise he is honestly worth a little more than JT, but this comes down to more than talent since he does have baggage, which to me would mean that they would have to come off with Wilcox or Ely in any deal for him in addition to Odom.

Eddie Jones is the model player that we are looking for. Plays great defense, is a fundamentally sound player and can score without needing the basketball. His age is a concern, but not to the point where he is on the steep downside of his career. You mentioned about his teams never winning anything before also. Well normally I do not like that arguement because you cannot fault one guy for his team not having major success, however if you look at the teams he has played on, they have had some pretty good talent on them. Is he a winner? I dont know, but I really wont hold too much against him for not having ever won anything. The biggest question mark concerning him is whether or not he can step up in big games. He has a history if I remember correctly of disappearing in playoff games, so thats definitely a strike against him. Maybe if we could get Jones and Grant from them while giving up a JT package that would hopefully send them Hendu and Toni we could work a deal with them since I feel that JT has more value than Jones straight up.

Lewis is the real enigma here. He is about to get a major pay raise most likely, but will he get the MAX? I am thinking he will get around 6 years 70 mil, which is about what JT is in line for so their salaries would be a wash. Hopefully the franchise isnt looking to trade JT just to cut salary so that wouldnt matter. Lewis is really on the verge of stardom I think. He had 2 very good players in the lineup with him last year in Barry and Payton, plus the black hole Vin Baker and still put up very good numbers. I see no reason why he couldnt come here and be our first option and easily average 20+. My main concern will just be whether or not we can get a guy like Hudson or McInnis or Best with our MCE to start at PG for us until Dickau is fully ready.

Jamison is a guy that I have really never been a big fan of. He has the ability to be a big time star in this league, but he just doesnt seem to want to be. We really need to keep SAR at PF unless we get a dominating PF, and Jamison is not that. He also isnt a good SF so I gotta say no to him.

Spree is far too old and the Knicks have nothing else to offer us that I would accept that they would be willing to deal to make this deal fair.

Wally world is a guy that his teammates cannot stand for some reason. I really dont know his personality well enough from not seeing a bunch of interviews with him to know exactly why this is. Maybe he is just in a very bad situation in Minnesota? Maybe Garnett is just a guy like AI that cannot co-exist with another good player. There could be many reasons, but I wouldnt be comfortable trading JT for him to be honest and just like the Knicks, they really have nothing else that interests me that we could make this deal fair with.

The last guy is Wells. I believe he is the second most T'd up guy in the NBA behind Wallace isnt he? Or at least on his team for sure. Is it because he is just flat out crazy or is it because he really gets too pumped up sometimes and goes overboard? I dont see him in the same light as a Kenyon Martin or Rasheed Wallace though temper wise. All of that aside the guy is a phemoninal talent who is probably good for 20+ on most teams and even on that talented Blazer team last year he averaged 17 points and 7 boards. He really excites the crowd and can score in bunches. He also plays very good defense. I wouldnt trade JT straight up for him, but if we could get Randolph and Davis from them in the same type of package I talked about with Miami, give or take, then I think I would have to send JT packing to the Blazers, which I would hate doing.

So, the guys I would consider from that group are (in order):

1 Matrix

2 Lewis

3 Jones

4 Wells

5 Odom

My heart says that I would love to see JT retire as a Hawk and prove all of the nation wrong about him not being able to play the point, but I honestly cannot see Dickau staying on the bench and I dread the thought of the both of them on the court together at the same time. Maybe having Theo and a solid zone defense will help that, but my gut is telling me that eventually, maybe not this year, but soon JT will be traded.

[Diesel]

I agree with that listing, especially the final five...

However, in order of our need and who we can get.... The numbers should be turned this way:

1. Jones

2. Odom

3. Wells

4. Lewis

5. JAMISON

6. Matrix.

I added in Jamison. He was removed from the discussion too soon.

However, Let me explain why:

1. Jones. Jones is everything we need. He plugs in at the 2 and he would give us about 17 -19 ppg and defensively we can expect about 2.3 spg. He's a very good defender and with Him at the 2 and DJ/Ira at the 3, teams will have a very hard time scoring from the perimeter.

The reason why Jones is up this high is because Miami needs MONEY. They are not selling out anymore. They have a make shift PG rotation. I think Riley would love JT's overall game (if he worked hard on defense). But the contract is the major issue. One more yr and Eddie is making more than he's worth and is probably untradable. Not to mention Zo wants an extension and will probably be traded to Dallas for Raef, NVE, somebody else. Where does that leave JT? Maning the SG position. Size doesn't matter a whole lot with Riley... Size Magic Johnson and John Starks for a reference. Bottom line is that JT is cheaper than Eddie and scores more than Eddie already.

2. Odom. Another good fit. I don't like his history but he's a good fit at Sf. He scores and passes. The problem with him is that he's replaced in LAC and they need a PG.

3. Wells. Not a perfect fit. And there's question about his knee... But this would be a perfect guy to get along with Dale Davis.

I'm thinking JT/Hendu for Davis/Wells. Anyway... Wells plays the 2 like Rider use to. Wells has the power 2 game. Him and Glover would be a good continuium of Power 2. His game would accent that of DD and Dj.

He's available because Trader Bob is always looking for a trade. Problem is that with Mighty mouse there, Bob may be less inclined to take JT... My trade of the day has been:

JT/Hendu/Toni/Nazr for DD/Wells/Stoudamire. I still like it. Not to mention DD/DS live in Atlanta.

DD/DS/DJ/DD/DG = The killer D's.

4. Lewis.

Don't know. I'm not high on Lewis. GP showed that anybody can do what Lewis does. Maybe Lewis proves me wrong but for now, I don't see it. He's available though. He's making 4.4 million or so right now. He's looking for BIG MONEY. I don't think he's worthy.

JT/CC can get him.

JT/Hendu can get him and Barry.

The question is does he make us better?

5. Jamison... My wild card. You guys might feel about Jamison the way I feel about Lewis... However, with all that is said about Jamison, he's still a scorer.with no PG, Jamison puts up good numbers. When his team is all injured and it's just him and Foyle, Jamison does a good job. Unfortunately for him, he's trade bait. He's not considered part of GS's future. It's very settle but GS's future is already there:

Richardson/Dunleavy Jr/Murphy.... These guys are it. All young and cheap. I have the feeling that GS is so high on these guys that they will showcase them for most of the yr and try to get a C next yr. What they need though is a PG. There's gilbert but they would trade him and he's not half bad... However, to get JT back, they would be estatic. So for the guess.

Jamison/Arenas to Atlanta for JT/Hendu

6. Finally Matrix.

There is no freakin way that Phoenix will trade Matrix. In fact, I look for them to trade Marbury before Matrix. How's this:

Marbury/Googs to Minn for Wally/Brandon/Nestor...

Mark it down... Things go back this yr.

So the question becomes would they ship off Matrix and take JT for him?

Probably not. His rebounding is what sets him apart. BTW, the reason why Phoenix dos that trade is that they get out of Goog's contract. They pick up Brandon's contract (he's in his last yr). They get a big man (Nestor). And Wally world. More than likely though, three way with us getting Wally for JT?

I don't like Wally. Nothing about his game, but his attitude. What's he saying up there in Minn that has everyone ready to kick his a**. Even quiet Anthony Peeler is ready to go off on Wally???

Just watch it happen.

[Admin]

In reply to:

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GP showed that anybody can do what Lewis does.

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In what way did GP show that anybody can do what Lewis does? That statement really doesnt make sense to me. Can you please elaborate an explain what you meant there?

[Guest]

Suns don't need Nestro because they have Big Jake

who is and will be just as good.But you are right,nobody

other than SAR can get Maxtrix.Marion is not a first

option,but he brings so much to the table and since

he has developed a jumper there is almost nothing

he can't do on the basketball court.

JOnes for JT is bad...Jones is over 30 so it's still a

bad deal.

JT for Jamison sucks.Jamison is a extremely poor

mans version of Benard King.Since GS is so terrible

on defense they probably get blowout alot(almost

twice by us alone)and so that makes Jamisons

stats look more bloated.

Odom/Wells/Lewis I'd all consider but Odom has the

best talent out of the 3.

[Guest]

I'm with the group. Marion or one of the better players we excluded would be required for me to give up JT. I'd rather just stick with what we have or trade some less valuable players. I'd rather see us deal off Nazr or even DJ and some draft picks. I'd like to have a big guy off the bench, maybe one of Golden State's centers could be picked up for Nazr, etc. I'd like to figure out how to get an athlete maybe like Stromile Swift. Or my favorite gem that probably is off limits is warming the bench for Sacramento, what's his name, from Alabama (Gerald?). I'd give up alot for him. But unless someone great comes along I'm keeping JT, Shareef, and even Theo!!

[Admin]

Dallas wont be trading for another small backcourt player then they already have Nash and NVE. Its not that I dont think Finley is tradeable, but I just took him off because they for sure wouldnt take JT for him, and honestly I dont think I would trade JT for him anyways.

[Diesel]

All I'm saying is that while out, Seattle played Desmond Mason in the SF position and they faired the same as they would have with Lewis in.

That's important because, Lewis had been crying about being the leader of the Sonics, being a max player but when he was out, Payton and Mason picked up the slack and showed that Lewis wasn't NEEDED.

This is what was written about Lewis nearing the playoffs.

In reply to:

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Rashard Lewis continues to put up solid numbers on a regular basis. But Lewis actually hasn't improved as much as the franchise expected. The Sonics called plays for Lewis early in the season before realizing that he has trouble creating his own shot. Although Lewis has good numbers, he has taken too many jumpers. Lewis' strong point this season has been his defensive rebounding.

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Doesn't sound like a max player.

Seattle may get rid of Vin Baker and his contract. If they do, look for them to start rebuilding... AND maybe not around Lewis?

James/Radmonivich/Mason/Barry/ and a PG... could be their core.

In fact, they may be drooling over the prospects of JT as we speak.

[Admin]

Just because they have two players who are of equal talent and skill, or very close to it, Mason and Lewis......that shouldnt take away from Lewis. It just means that Mason is a very good young player himself. If they could replace Lewis easily with a guy like Mason then they should definitely look to trade Lewis to fill another hole on the team. Makes no sense to have 2 of your 3 best players playing the same position.

[Diesel]

Most of the stuff I read on Lewis (again, I'm no expert on him) says that he's good but he's not neccessary.

For instance... I would say that SAR is neccessary. Paul Pierce is neccessary. Even Jerry Stackhouse is neccessary. But Lewis is an add along player. Seemingly, he can be replaced by Radmanovich or Mason without any trouble.

Bottom line is that with his contract coming up soon and his belief that he is more than he is... The Sonics might trade him... Resign GP to an extension and find a PG to replace GP in the future. JT fits what they would want really well.

The question is would we do a Lewis for JT/CC trade? The bottom line is that I don't know if Lewis is going to make the difference for us. Yes he will bring points to the SF position... And yes he will rebound. But can we count on him to be a scorer?

Who knows? I don't doubt that Seattle would do the deal.

[Hawksfreak]

GSW get: Jason Terry

Atlanta gets: Antwan Jamison

We need a bigger guard right? I hope this trade doesn't happen but this would be the best solution.

Dan/Email

AJ/DJ/Dion

Ira/CC

Reef/Haslem/Hendu

Ratliff/Nazr

[Diesel]

Well young hawkfreak...

I think not.

First off Jamison and JT salaries differ about 7.5 million dollars.

Second, Jamison is a SF wannabe PF.

Here's what is true...

GS wants a PG and they will look to trade Jamison sooner or later.

My guess is that an Armstrong for Fortson trade will go down anyday now.

THEN

Next yr when all the free agents are out and about, GS will flaunt having:

Armstrong, Richardson, Dunleavy Jr, Murphy already in place... Then they will try to trade for a guy like Duncan or Oneal... Using Jamison and maybe a lottery pick as the bait in a sign and trade?