HMMM. Have we all lost balls?

[Weez]

perfectly stated. The 'only' racial angle, based on said logic (which I agree with) is this: by 'preventing teenage men, the majority of which, in this subset, are black men, from entering the NBA. the 'powers that be' are subtly (or not so subtly) trying to 'keep men of african descent (sp)men out of the NBA, while promoting the admission of others of a different racial heritage'.

ok, so Euro's go pro earlier...what has that to do with the NBA (a privately owned US company)? by limiting the age, the only 'remote' tie would then be that, because Euro players, most of whom are 'white', dont receive much playing time when 'young professionals (15-18), by limiting the age-limit in the NBA you are 'promoting' the foreigners' odds of making an NBA roster because, in those two years, they may get more pt, thereby becoming more 'desireable and skilled (due to ?showcasing?)' than those of african (or perhaps, more specifically, african-american) descent and decreasing/altering the current overall % of 'african- vs. non-african descent players

[PhillyDC]

race isnt the main point and I dont look at david stern as racist, but consider this-MLB and NHL have been drafting HS kids since I can remember. now society says nothing of this or at least i havent heard anything about it, now the nba which is mostly Black starts doin the same and society/media screaming "the nba is going down", "product is gettin worse", "just showboating", "kids arent prepared to be have all of that $$$", "education is important" where is all this for the MLB/NHL kids??? now u can argue that these Leagues have minor league systems which i say the nba should have and would be good, but that is not the case. y should these kids be forced to go to school and not get paid when the MBL/NHL can not go to school and get paid

like i said it probably isnt the main reason, and it may, just may be a coincidence... but where there's smoke....

[Wretch]

...I can call it a stupid opinion all I want. Because that would be my opinion.

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2nd off i believe he has a strong argument. a person goes to college to pursue a chosen career. if this person can reach his career goal without going to college then he/she should be allowed to.

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Let's clear this up first. Last I checked, sports and academics were mutually exclusive; in fact, sports are simply extra curricular activities and playing college sports is no more a prerequisite to professional sports as participating in a debate club is to being president. Conversely, academic achievement and professional experience ARE usually a prerequisite to getting a (quality) job anywhere else. Yet, there is no such requirement in the NBA...which is foolish considering the pay scale and the price of the product that people, loyal to the game I might add, pay.

The bottom line here is that firstly, nobody is telling these kids that they HAVE to go to college. The message being sent is that the NBA is a professional league, which people pay money to watch professional players, and at a minimum it wants players who have proven themselves against more than HS teenagers - the VAST majority of which offer VERY little challenge.

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NHL and MLB have been drafting people out of high school for a long, long time, and there has not been any talk of putting an age limit.

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But again, as has been stated, these leagues have a safety net for bomb talent. They simply send them to the minors...and at what kind of pay scale? Does it compare to the GUARANTEED millions that lottery picks are afforded and the valuable roster spot (of what 12 to 15?) that they will own for 3 years?

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I think it is more than coincidence that as soon as a kids in a predominantly Black sport try to go straight to the pros the talk of an age limit comes in.

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Well, I wouldn't say "as soon" because the league has been lax on this topic for decades. It became an issue when it became a trend and the influx of unpolished HS and underclassmen dramatically and steadily increased. Still, with so many young black men dominating the league as it is, and making Stern and the NBA SO MUCH MONEY I might add, I don't see how making them wait 2 years equates to racism.

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Most of the high school players who have come in have done quite well. JO, Kobe, Al Harrington, Amare, Lebron, KG to name some.

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Those would be almost all of the HS players. I can scarcely name more...TMac...um... There are far more HS players that haven't proven anything. And just being in the NBA doesn't spell success. If that were the case, then you could say everyone playing in the NBA is a relative success. That is a farce as we all know.

So scratch off all the Wrights, Telfairs, Cisse's, Diops, Outlaws, Benders off the list. None of these guys are even close to the level of the elite HS players. The argument is, for every LeBron there are 3 or 4 average players who think they are better than they are. With the EXCEPTION of the elite, I think every one of those players on your list would benefit GREATLY from 2 or more years of collegiate ball BEFORE they step on the PROFESSIONAL hardwood.

Furthermore, we're not talking busts. I care less about HSSRs making the jump and becoming a bust. I think the majority of those in favor of the age limit are less worried about busts and more interested in seeing more polished players coming into the league.

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Some of the high school players could have been better had they gone to college yes (D. Stevenson for one), but they are the exception rather than the rule.

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They are the exception? I'm scratching my head here. Even the most talented HSSR could use 2 years of playing against heightened competition. Nothing like the pressure of delivering during the tournaments and big games to get you ready for the big games in the NBA. Nothing like flying all over the country OFTEN to face stiff competition to get you ready for the traveling you'll do in the NBA.

LeBron gets to practice his jumper against people his size and speed. KG gets to tackle PROVEN collegiate coaching schemes. I mean, the experience is going to hurt no one. Getting hurt in college is the only valid argument here. Though, even that can be debated with the old proverb nothing easy is ever worthwhile...and seldom does little risk offer great reward.

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I know NHL and MLB have minor leagues and the NBA should develop some type of system, but I dont think that players should be forced to go to school instead of pursuing their career goal.

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Again, nobody is saying "Go to school to learn how to play in the NBA." Stern is saying, "get experience and then come talk to us."

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Im an engineer, if i could have been an engineer without going to college i would have done it.

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I am a Network Administrator, 90% of what I know...I know from DOING and not from a book. But nobody is going to hire me because I say I know how to do it - even if I can do it. I won't even be interviewed without credentials and experience. So in line with your argument, why should an NBA player be given a golden pass without proving anything or even polishing his skills at a higher level?

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Look at all the high school players that came last year, are they hurting the league, NO!

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Which of them has led their team to a winning record? Collectively, all of this young talent IS bringing down the quality of the NBA. I'd rather have a 2 year collegiate Dwight Howard leading my team than a HS Dwight Howard. Most people with any kind of sense would.

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All that college experience, learning the game stuff is garbage. in the last 5 years who has proven to be better the high school kids or the college kids? yes, the high school kids b/c in the nba they have better coaching and are not forced to play in a garbage only works in college system like Duke. Consider all the facts people.

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Many of the best high school players are not going to college. They are making the jump directly to the NBA. So by default, this is a one-sided argument.

The age limit is not fueled by racism. I will tell you what racism is. Having myself and all of the other young black servicemen digging 3 and 4 mile cable runs and burying the cable in the torrid heat of the Egyptian desert for 16 hours a day, while the "good ole boys" and their "golden boys" play cards and monitor circuits in air conditioned vans...and take credit for all of our work and physical and technical troubleshooting.

...and when we made a stink about it, sh#t got addressed. I've dealt with racism all of my life. Jermaine was a pampered black millionaire at the age of 18, and a pampered HS superstar before that. He doesn't know what racism in the workplace is. He's simply a clueless HS player with a biased opinion on an issue that affects .0000000025% of the Black American population.

[chillzatl]

Where there's smoke? haha, You obviously feel there is more of a racial angle to it than you will admit. Otherwise why would you say that?

Get over it already. I think that people should be able to follow their dream at whatever age they are capable...

As long as their dream fits into the rules of that dream job.

The NBA has its rules and they can alter them to improve their product as they see fit. To hint that it's racism shows a poor understanding of what it really means.

[PhillyDC]

i agree with u what u r going thru is racism and trust me i see the same type of stuff (although not on the same scale) daily. racism can take different forms man. if u want to make everything relative than none of us are going through racism compared to Blacks that had to go through slavery and the Jim Crow era.

and u were attacking JO u called him stupid, not his opinion, u can call his opinion stupid, but its not right to call him stupid, hell i think half of the comments yall make are stupid, but i dont call yall stupid.

i know i wouldnt have gone to school if i didnt have to, if these kids can turn pro and they desire to be pro basketball players i say at least give them the opportunity to fail. thats all. a minor league system needs to be set up to let kids make $$ doing what they dream to do. its only fair, nhl/mlb has it so y does the nba have to be any different

[Weez]

boy, way to stradle the fence. you claim that you dont believe david stern to be a racist, and thereby 'agree' with the 'age-limit' to not be racially motivated in conception. However, you close by alluding to a possible 'ironical coincidence' between the comments and the 'perception of racial reasons...going so far as to 'agree with the substantiation as truth' by stating, "where there's smoke (JO's comments), there(then exists)s fire."

you can't say both things in the same statement. they're contradictory.

[PhillyDC]

i think u being naive. i have an understanding. its a private company and they can make any rules they choose true. what evidence are they using to say the L has gotten worst? ratings are high, merchandise sales are through the roof, new team sellin a lot of tix.

i know what im talkin about man.

[PhillyDC]

not a contradiction man. u think david stern is not influenced by outsides/owners. he doesnt act independenlty (xcpet when suspending pacers)

i dont think its soley him. not a contradiction.

someone tell me how the L has suffered, please im waiting.

[chillzatl]

net admin! What do you work with? What systems, rather, windows, nix's, etc?

I'm a network consultant/engineer/admin myself. No college, no outside training. Just several years of learning and improving my skills until I was ready to become a PROFESSIONAL at the next level.

Damn good post BTW!

[chillzatl]

if you're an engineer, please take the time to type so that others can read it without having to read it 3 times. This isn't a 12-16 yahoo room!

[PhillyDC]

u r just proving my point about college. if u dont have to go to school to do what u want/desire to do y go. they can just get paid for their training thats all. tired of the nba using the ncaa as a minor L.

[chillzatl]

You maybe have only been watching ball for a few years, I don't know. But if you've been watching long enough, you would know that the quality if the league is NOT what it used to be.

There are a multitude of statitics that back it up too. Practically every key team stat is significantly lower than it was before the influx of unpolished players hit the scene.

[PhillyDC]

what the he!! does me being a chemcial engineer have to do with the way i type??? i got my degree and about to get another, i got a;s in all my english classes. u guys r 2 serious. shorthand thats all. i see the audience that im dealing with here.

[Wretch]

I'll come on out and say it. I'll call him stupid (because that is my opinion) and I'll call his opinion stupid. However, by your own arguement of "relativity" here, I would also say that by screaming racism, HE is spitting on the real hardships that Black people have had to deal with over the years. Comparing his situation...

Hmm...I'm a pampered HS superstar that everybody loves. I don't have to work. I get all kinds of shoes, money, clothes, and whatever I want from people of all colors...respected for my abilities so much in fact that at the age of 18 I am offered millions of dollars to sit on a bench and watch a game.

As opposed to...what? Pick a REAL issue that has to do with racism.

(...)

Sh#t, not even a point man. Not even close. Hell, it isn't even close to some of the TRULy racist comments that were made about Tiger Wood's pampered golfin' ass...lol

Still, it's an atrocity...it's racism or anything close to it when someone wants to make young, black, JO's wait 2 years and polish thier game before they come to a proessional league to make millions?

No.

Jermaine is an ignorant, pampered, stupid ass. And his opinion is ignorant, biased (because he has been pampered), and stupid. At a minimum he should just shut the f#ck up and play ball for my $65 to some odd thousand dollars for one seat.

[chillzatl]

Wretch said it best, its' not about being forced into college. THough it's not a bad thing. It's about putting in the time to become better before you get paid to be a professional. If they want to go from highschool to the NBADL or euroleagues, who cares.

But let them get ready before they drag down the quality of the sport I enjoy watching.

[PhillyDC]

shooting %: zone D maybe and maybe the fact that u have long, athletic 6'9" 2 guards where as b4 2-guards were about 6'3" more emphasis on D. i luv espn classic, but lets be real those 70-80s team didnt play D as intense as they do now. D didnt become a priority until Isaiah and the bad boys.

[PhillyDC]

man im done, ive been saying the same thing u just typed since ive got on here 2day. they should be allowed to get paid. NBA needs to set up a minor L simple as that. no age limit, just a minor L.

[chillzatl]

you can take that how ever you choose to take it. I don't like reading a buncha l33t g1bber1sh, which is what that chatroom style crap is.

[chillzatl]

the whistle goes WHOOO WHOOOOOO!

[Wretch]

GOOD LORD, there is so much information. Just one freaggin interface, on a single freaggin LAN/WAN device, and you can have countless amounts of information...hold downs, hellos, encapsulation, access lists...and a different set for everything if you use multiple protocols...!!! I've got a good bearing on it now though. Pretty confident I can eek out a 70, but I want to walk in and KNOW that I can go in and ace it.

I'm fairly new to the server side of things. I've always been up on the concepts and the knowledge, but seldom put into direct responsibility for it. More recently, I've been doing contract work. I'm a Windows guy. I've done a good deal (in practice and live) with 2000 Server, fiddled with Unix a little... Cisco's fun though. lol Nobody knows what the hell is goin on. We have an issue or about to implement a change and they're either nose deep in one of my lab books or on the phone with a CCIE at Cisco. It's been my experience that somehow, things just seem to fall in place.

lol and yeah, I think we're all self-made until we're ready to go PROFESSIONAL. And then, unless you know somebody, it's all about flashing those papers in their face. And that's screwed up now because so many people realize how easy it is to get the training. It's like everybody's got an MCSA in their back pocket.