HMMM. Have we all lost balls?

[Wretch]

See, I don't buy this arguement about the last 2 ROYs being HSSRs. For the simple fact that these guys are NOT the standard HSSRs jumper, but the exception. I'm not saying the elite guys aren't good or ready for the NBA. I'm saying the 3 or 4 OTHER guys trying to be like them are not.

...and how would Olowakandi fare had he NOT gone to school. Do you even know the story on that cat? Rich kid, bored, big and wanted to play basketball. He walks into Pacific and says, "can I play basketball?" They tell him ... uhhh, sure, but we don't have any more scholarships ... and he's like, "Not a problem. I'll pay for it myself." Guy never played a day of basketball in his life before that. I'm not sure that he even made the team in his freshman year. I think he did some training in Europe and came back either his sophmore or junior season and made the team.

In any case, he improved enough to get noticed and get drafted. If he had just came straight to the NBA, he wouldn't have even made the 2nd round. Many of these HSSRs are good enough to play in the NBA, but all could benefit from collegiate or semi-pro exposure.

In any case, I do agree with you that there may be other motives for Stern to push an age limit. POSSIBLY...knowing how crafty Dave is with the business. However, the main point that I'm making is that it has NOTHING to do with race and JO is still a dumbass.

[Wretch]

They can go to Europe and get paid. The top HSSR players will certainly get picked up quickly. And this argument about the HSSRs snatching up the ROYs is silly.

THESE ARE THE TOP PREP STARS IN THE COUNTRY.

These guys ARE so good that they're skipping college - which puts a dent in the representation of the college players. Even still, guys like LeBron...they're obviously gifted. Whether or not they went to college, they would still come to the NBA and still snatch up ROYs because they are that good.

Stern may want kids to go to college, but you can probably scratch off the NBDL as a method. They're pushing for a farm system whereby each team is filled with prospects from NBA teams. And since they won't be able to draft these 20 year olds, they won't be able to play for the NBDL. At least that's the way I see it.

I don't agree that there is a hidden agenda and at the same time, I don't disagree because I know Stern. But it has nothing to do with Race and more than anything, I believe it has to do with grooming players before they come into the NBA.

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

He's not mandating that highschoolers go to college.

---

No... He's not mandating that.. But he is.

You can't come to the league. We won't really consider you if all you do is sit at the house until you're 20. So, you're just stuck. Review the Osmaine Cisse Story... Where is he now?

If a kid doesn't go to College, he will probably end up as a career Journeyman if a team takes a chance on him.

[Diesel]

Stern has made exceptions to age limits as it applies to Europlayers before...

Darko entered at 17...

[Weez]

Diesel, as someone who knows their facts and does reading...I can't believe you pulled out this crap.

I would think (and did before you posted it) that you were well abreast of the story with Darko...he turned 18 between the 'declaration for the draft day' in May and the actual draft in June. The player's association challenged Stern's original ruling to keep him out of the draft, stating that he would be 18 by the time the actual draft commenced...and, realizing that the wording was ambiguous, STern and the league mgt. agreed to let him into the draft...

that's not making an exception. sorry. try again.

[Weez]

ok. here are your options:

a) you could go to college (assuming you make 750 on the SAT or whatever). It's paid for and you really dont have to study that much...especially if you're not staying for long. you will get national publicity (to some degree, but regardless, more than you got as a highschooler).

b) you can try to show your wares in the ABA or other basketball leagues throughout the country (note~currently the NBDL does have an age limiti of 20, though Stern has said that that would be abolished if the NBA put an age limit in place...thereby, allowing players to 'go pro' from HS).

c) you could go to Europe and play...where there are multiple teams in a variety of countries, all willing to pay you more than any state-side league other than the NBA (and perhaps more than you'd make there, depending on on where a player is drafted).

no, you don't have to go to college.

[Eeeee]

.................or they could come down to play here in Australia. (Just like Rick Brunson, Darnell Mee, Chris Jent, Acie Earl, Ricky Grace, Dwayne McClain and many, many others)

I dont think any imposed age limit would be a negative thing, In this day and age, we have colleges in the USA, having 'student-athletes' exist on the campus living up to some ridiculous, idealistic, moral-based rules so the colleges can reap the billion dollar rewards of national exposure on tlevision. Players dont see a cent. At the very least, player participation in a minor league would pay a player, say, 40K per year. Thats better than college for someone who's intention is to turn pro anyway and they get looked after more thoroughly basketball-wise.

Moreso, there must be a significant preportion of players that attend college solely on the basis of getting a shot at pro basketball. Studies are a distraction. Straight entry from HS to any minor league that has affiliations with the major league teams (NBA) would eliminate distractions in a players ability to focus on basketball. At the same time, development programs could be instituted by the NBA to educate players on conduct, media, public management issues that they will face if they have the ability to move onto the big time.

There will need to be some kind of clause that ensures 'special' players (read the Lebrons, Kemps, Kobes and Garnetts) can be called up to a major league team if they dominate early in a league such as the NBDL, however they should have an ability to renegotiate with a team as a free agent (even if just drafted). That way they get to see fair market price.

So what will happen is the players who are NBA ready can get to the league straight away. Those not ready can develop in the pros and still make a living (albeit with a salary on par with most civilians).

The other comparison, which no-one as picked up here, is the enormous popularity enjoyed by the commercial emergence of streetball in the last 5 years. This type of game is full of BS and hype and would allow for hometwon locals to see phenoms with 'maaad skillz and crayzee hops' before they blow up and whoop everybody that steps in their way. Surely With the introduction of a fully integrated minor league, D. Stern is looking at this and licking his lips. While development leagues and streetball is not NBA calibre, therein lies a great deal of its attraction. The establishment of an NBDL would allow basing of teams in smaller cities, an increasing groundswell of support for local players who can play for these teams and poaching of potential college player players with the added attraction of making money that they dont get by going to college.

With more exciting pro prospects in the NBDL, and less pro calibre players in college, watch network TV money deals drop.

Lets be honest, players who go to schools with the aim of going pro that dont make the NBA, generally go to Europe, Asia or Australia to play. While maybe not becoming super rich, In many cases they make great careers out of it Its not like they are attending college for the education.

Coaches will win out of this too. How many successful college coaches have made the jump to the NBA? Less than former players who have gone through the semi-pro and pro ranks. A full minor league would provide for professional development of coaches also.

Sterns not trying to help the NCAA at all, he's going to make a hard run at taking the basketball market completely and killing it. If anyone will be kicking themselves in 25 years time, its the colleges, that didnt figure out that by paying players to play for them, they survived and thrived.

[Weez]

there's a couple of things you're not factoring in:

a) yes, you're correct that most of the players attending the 'bigger' university's do so in hopes of elevating their game/gaining exposure and making the NBA. True, they are not paid, and many probably could care less about the formal education they recieve (though others would kill for such an opportunity, having to delay or propagate college years in order to earn money to pay for it).

However, these players, while they're not 'making money,' they're not losing it either...and they gain FREE national exposure. That, in turn, heaps the rewards and endoresement deals (of those who make the pros, for those who don't, it's an obvious downside).

b) you're right in that coaches most certainly benefit. Think about how many college coaches have lost jobs...and then ask yourself if that would have happened had they retained their 'signed' players who never came or left after a single year. HUGE effect on stability, not to mention the fact that such coaches would also 'get to work with' superior talents, thereby broadening their perspective on the game and it's 'workings'.

c) you could not make an 'exception to the rule' for players such as LeBron, Carmelo, etc. On what objective basis would you make the discrimination? Trying to put one in place, as it MUST BE a subjective ruling, creates the opportunity for exploitation and reversal further down the road. Sorry, but we'd just have to have waited a year or so to see LeBron in the NBA...oh well.

d) you're completely right on those 'college players' who don't make it in the NBA...a large percentage of them eventually (if they choose) make a living playing basketball in other countries, and make a more than decent living at that.

[Eeeee]

Weez, what you say is true regarding the free college exposure. What Im suggesting however is that perhaps a Stern model would see an eventual decline in the public exposure of college basketball. Simply because it has always been the way it is, does not mean it will continue to be under a changing business environment. Particularly if the colleges continue with their sweatshop mentality. Food for thought.

Regarding the Lebron, Carmelo issue. Im not suggesting they make exceptions under special circumstance, merely that if a player is to be drafted into a minor league, then they can be more appropriately screened as to who is ready to play and who is not. Perhaps the rule should be that all players under 20 are drafted into the minor league and not the NBA. From there the league could filter through those deemed 'ready'. That would form a fairly objective standard IMO.

[CBAreject]

"first off, you cant call somebody stupid b/c of their opinion."

That's just your opinion....and yes you can. What better reason is there to call someone stupid? I'm not saying you should ever call anyone stupid, but in the event you did, might as well base your assessment on their opinions.

Also, people say his argument is stupid because he's playing the race card. So, you think he has a strong argument? The NBA is racist? Well, you might be right. You know, I do believe the NBA is racist. Whites represent over 50% of the American population, but only 10% of the players in the NBA. It's time for AFFIRMATIVE ACTION!

[Eeeee]

I dunno why 'stupid' was even mentioned, I never called him stupid.

Did I recommend he give himself an uppercut? Yes

Did I ask what he was smoking? Yes.

Did I say he was talking out his ass? Again, Yes.

Did I call him stupid? No.

[vonrauss]

[Diesel]

Stern has been talking about Lifting the limit for Europlayers because they get experience in Euroleagues... He did it once with Darko and Sokofalosis...

If he gets the age limit and lifts if for Euroleaguers, it's racism.

[Weez]

here's a copy of it:

Diesel, as someone who knows their facts and does reading...I can't believe you pulled out this crap.

I would think (and did before you posted it) that you were well abreast of the story with Darko...he turned 18 between the 'declaration for the draft day' in May and the actual draft in June. The player's association challenged Stern's original ruling to keep him out of the draft, stating that he would be 18 by the time the actual draft commenced...and, realizing that the wording was ambiguous, STern and the league mgt. agreed to let him into the draft...

that's not making an exception. sorry. try again."

where have you 'heard' that he's been considering lifting it for Euro players, and, more specifically, citing his motivation for doing so is 'their earlier experience/babtism to professional play'???

I have NEVER once heard any allusion to such matters...

[Wretch]

And if I met him, I would walk up to his face...well, not in his face...maybe looking around the corner, behind security, maybe over the phone with his big ass...I'd call him stupid and I would say that he has a stupid opinion.

If anything the only color that might have any bearing on this issue is Green.

[Eeeee]

Quote:

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If he gets the age limit and lifts if for Euroleaguers, it's racism.

---

All incorrect information aside. Even if he did this, it STILL wouldnt be racism. It would be system-ism. Obviously Stern would thyink the Euro system is superior to the US system. Dont forget, what you are suggesting WOULD eventually affect a white american.

Do you think Stern wants to see the next Lebron/KG/TMac/Kobe stopped from the entering the NBA? Dont be daft........

Ridiculous.

[Weez]

if he did that though, one could at least make an argument for racism, be it true or not, the 'data' would be there for the argument (pretty big if).

that's the thing I have with the whole JO stuff. I simply fail to see any way that it could be construed as such. He definitely has a right to his opinion, though I STRONGLY disagree with it.

[Eeeee]

Ditto.

[Weez]

nm

[Eeeee]

As an interesting side note; The 'Euro' system is pretty much the way the entire rest of the world organsises sports. University reputation has little importance down here (Australia) especially, its more of a social event.

Persons displaying talent at sport are usually identified, integrated into pre-professional programs such as the governement funded Australian Institute of Sport and related state programs.

The college system seems to work in the US because of the amount of $$ that the US colleges have.