How about this team....

[Diesel]

I call him a poor defender because he is a poor defender.

As far as scouts agreeing with that...

Check out Draft City.

Draft City on Bogut

Quote:

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Omar Thomas, one of the great stories of the tournament after overcoming a childhood in which his father and two brothers were imprisoned for murder, scored 24 in his final collegiate game, many of the points coming in drives around the slower Bogut.

"I take everybody like that pretty much," Thomas said. "I knew he wasn't that fast going side to side so I tried to go around him."

---

You will always have your guys like Thomas, Harris, & Frye who are fast enough latterally to make Bogut look silly.

[chillzatl]

1. This isn't expert analysis. It's a quote by a college kid and as you are well aware of, college kids aren't experts on much of anything.

2. "I take everybody like that pretty much". This is a 6'5" guard... I would hope to hell he could get around Bogut...HAHA. This has zero bearing on playing D in the NBA.

3. Those other guys are PF's at the NBA level at best. Again, they should have the quickness to get around most 7'+ players. It still doesn't make him a bad defender as that is only one small facet of playing defence.

Again, nothing to back up your claims that he's a poor defender. He has the lateral quickness to guard 98% of the centers at the NBA level and is fast enough to help on most of the PF's. Very few PF's and C's in this league have the ability to put the ball on the floor and drive around anyone , anyway. Guys like Amare Stoudemire can do it. But he also dropped 26 on Ben Wallace. So I guess Ben is a poor defender too?

You're under the dillusion that we're going to be a great defensive team just because we draft a few kids that YOU like. That's absolutely absurd. Being a good defensive team in the NBA is one of the hardest things you can do. Look around the league. There are really only two great defensive teams in the entire league (Detroit and SAS). Most everyone else relies on scoring and plays just enough defense to offset that. You keep saying "we need to build for defense" like it's easy to do. Just bring in a few guys who have the ability to play defense and it will just happen? Please, that's about as unrealistic an assumption as anyone can make.

[Diesel]

Actually, I posted two things. ONE was the analysis you so desire by Draftcity.

The other was the quote.

You should be concerned that Bogut can't stop people from driving past him!

Quote:

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You're under the dillusion that we're going to be a great defensive team just because we draft a few kids that YOU like. That's absolutely absurd. Being a good defensive team in the NBA is one of the hardest things you can do. Look around the league.

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I know what good defense is NOT and it is NOT Bogut.

I am not saying that we spend the top pick overall on a defender. I am saying that we spend it on the player most likely to become a superstar. Bogut is not that either. He may become Solid but his achilles will always be that he can't defend. Interior defense is his weakness so how will he help us??

Quote:

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Again, nothing to back up your claims that he's a poor defender. He has the lateral quickness to guard 98% of the centers at the NBA level and is fast enough to help on most of the PF's.

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I like how you just pull this stuff out of your ass and try to pass it off as Facts???

If you want the truth, look over his olympic record... Was he supposed to have the latteral quickness to guard those Centers? He can't guard 98% of college Centers and in the MWC, 94% of those guys are NOT going to college. So how do you think he will do better in the Pros??

[Nicholasp27]

diesel is too blinded at this point...it doesn't matter if woody brings in amare, kg, duncan and shaq to play against bogut and bogut shuts them all down, diesel still would say that bogut is a poor defender

in fact, the scout article (draftcity or nbadraft.net) even says for weakness "lateral quickness, but it's not as bad as people say"...so his worst attribute isn't even as bad as some are saying...

a 6'5 guy can drive around duncan as well...

bogut will be able to guard the centers of the league and 98% of the pfs for help defense...if our TEAM lets the pg drive all the way in, then bogut may not be as successful at stopping that 6' pg, but that's why we need a defensive pg...u can't build a team expecting ur center to stop 6'ers...

[Diesel]

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diesel is too blinded at this point...it doesn't matter if woody brings in amare, kg, duncan and shaq to play against bogut and bogut shuts them all down, diesel still would say that bogut is a poor defender

---

You don't have to postulate Bogut stopping any of the great players, that's an insult...

Just tell me..

Who has Bogut shut down?

[chillzatl]

1. Bogut may not be a "star" or "superstar". But he will be a top 4 center in the league. I also think he will, at worst, put up 18/10, which is damned good. That may not be star quality to some people. But factored in with his passing ability and his ability to make those around him better, it's pretty darned close.

2. There isn't a free agent center that is available to us that, IMO, will offer the same production.

3.There is no need for us to get a PG with the #1 pick (assuming we get it) when we can fill that need later in the draft with a pick we already have OR trade Al for another first rounder and use that for a PG.

So again, the point: Our two biggest needs are a PG and a C. When we can get a top 4 caliber C in the draft and also meet our PG needs in the draft, it's absurd for us to spend a lot of money on a C that simply isn't as good and then waste our best pick ever on a PG that isn't going to offer us a whole lot more than a PG we could get later in the draft.

So we fill our needs and we're still sitting there with oodles of cash that we can use to bolster our lineup even more, giving us depth and possibly an established player.

[Diesel]

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Bogut may not be a "star" or "superstar". But he will be a top 4 center in the league. I also think he will, at worst, put up 18/10, which is damned good.

---

I think you need to reevaluate.. I don't think Bogut will get you 10 rebs in this league.

But let's say he does get 18/10. You should want more from a 1st overall... You should want a superstar with #1 overall. You have just shown Solid numbers but not superstar numbers. I expect 18/10 out of J-Smoove. Actually Better. He was not a #1 pick. In 4 yrs do you think Dwight Howard will be stuck at 18/10?

Secondly, in the lack of a COMPLETE game, at #1, you should want a player whoose presence can change a game. Bogut will not be that because he cannot contribute on the defensive end.

How much of an impact player was Toni Kukoc in his prime? In his prime, Toni was 5 times better than Bogut will ever be offensively while being the same defensively. Toni was never a player that could carry a franchise though. At #1 overall, you should want a guy that can carry the franchise!

Being that PGs make a bigger impact than Cs in todays game, I would pick D. Williams or Paul ahead of Bogut. If we got a PG, I would strongly consider M. Williams over Bogut.

[Nicholasp27]

i see bogut putting up 20/10/4 or even better...he is a dominant rebounder in NCAA, Olympics and international competition...he was top 4 in the entire Olympics in rebounding...he matched duncan pt for pt, reb for reb when guarding each other, so he was able to rebound evenly with duncan...

chill was the pac10 top rebounder and look, it translated to the NBA...

bogut's rebounding will translate to the nba and he'll easily be a 10rpg player...more likely 11-13

25/13/5/3 is his ceiling....

15/9/3/1 is his floor...

[chillzatl]

I want as much as we can get out of it. But I'm not dillusional. I'm not willing to risk the pick on the specter of "potential". When I see that we can get an extremely gifted player who happens to play the most hard to fill position in the league, I don't think I'm lowering my expectations at all.

18/10 for Bogut is what I consider "worst case". You continue to paint yourself as a biased observer to the player Bogut really is and could become. You say he won't get 10rpg. But he's considered a dominant rebounder at the college level. Not simply becuase of his size. But because of his rebounding instincts and how he plays. He has an uncanny ability to read the ball and is then willing to go and get it. Considering how few truely great rebounders there are in the game today, I fully expect him to be among the best in the league at it withing a few seasons.

Your comparison to Kukoc is again, biased at best. Once again you ignore the same intangibles that you use to validate other players when it comes to Bogut. Kukoc did not want to play defense, Bogut does. He may not be the most physically gifted when it comes to being able to play it. But heart and desire make up for a lot and you consistantly refuse to acknowledge that. Kukoc did not care about defense. The lack of desire to play it far outweighs any physical limitations he might have.

[Diesel]

Quote:

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want as much as we can get out of it. But I'm not dillusional. I'm not willing to risk the pick on the specter of "potential". When I see that we can get an extremely gifted player who happens to play the most hard to fill position in the league, I don't think I'm lowering my expectations at all.

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You need to define extremely gifted because Bogut is not that. If you mean a good passer at 7 ft. I agree. But he lacks Athleticism. He lacks verticle lift. He lacks good lateral movement & his defense is not good.

Secondly... The reason why C is so hard to fill is because there are a lot of guys who get hyped because they are 7 feet tall and they turn out to be BUST... Bogut is not the first 7 footer who put up good stats in a weak conference. Look at Kaman. Look at Olowakhandi. Then you have guys like Bogut who got lots of Hype from College who didn't live up to the hype. Look at Mihm. Look at Pryz. If you're looking for a Bust, draft a 7 footer who has been hyped by the media the way Bogut has... and IGNORE his defensive play the way that many of you are willing to do. Some of you are so rude to try to compare him to Duncan?? That's ignorance at it's best. How many times did Duncan play somebody 6'5" or 6'7" and the game took the ball into Duncan's lane and score at Will? How many Danny Grangers were there that matched up with Duncan on a switch off and scored with ease? Duncan was so dominating because he could do it on BOTH ends... Bogut can't.

Quote:

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say he won't get 10rpg. But he's considered a dominant rebounder at the college level.

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If you put Old man Jon Koncak in the MWC, he will come away with 18 points/12 rebs a game.

Quote:

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Your comparison to Kukoc is again, biased at best. Once again you ignore the same intangibles that you use to validate other players when it comes to Bogut. Kukoc did not want to play defense, Bogut does. He may not be the most physically gifted when it comes to being able to play it. But heart and desire make up for a lot and you consistantly refuse to acknowledge that. Kukoc did not care about defense. The lack of desire to play it far outweighs any physical limitations he might have.

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Oh.. My.. Kukoc did not want to play defense??? Damn Dr. Phil, how did you come to that conclusion? Kukoc had bad feet that slowed his lateral quickness. He wanted to play good defense.

Here's a quote about Toni when he was a Bull:

Quote:

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Toni Kukoc is having a little trouble trying to adjust to NBA

basketball. He has some of the best passing skills in the NBA (though

his teammates don't always expect it), and has developed into a

reasonable shooter. He is still rather slow and weak on defense.

---

You can apply that same quote to Bogut in 2009.

You just can't go around thinking that guys in the NBA that don't play good defense simply lack desire. That's absurd. There are a lot of guys with Desire and that desire never make up for their inabilities. The same will be true of Bogut. He may have desire, but desire won't help his lateral quickness. Lateral quickness allows a player to slide defensively, shift positions. Bogut lacks that so a player who can put the ball on the floor will move right past him. He will be as useful and Daniel Santigo.

[Nicholasp27]

lol

the further along it goes, the worse diesel is trying to make bogut out to be

and he still rebounded in the ncaa tourney and in the olympics and in international play...not just mwc...

he's a good rebounder, just like chill was in the pac10...period

[Diesel]

Do you Dare think that the MWC if comparable to the Pac-10??

[chillzatl]

Quote:

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You need to define extremely gifted because Bogut is not that. If you mean a good passer at 7 ft. I agree. But he lacks Athleticism. He lacks verticle lift. He lacks good lateral movement & his defense is not good.

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He's a good passer, period. He does not lack athleticism. Most reports consider him to be fairly athletic for his size BUT he lacks some lateral quickness. Again, you stretch ONE thing to mean things that it is not. How many 7 footers have a lot of vertical lift? shaq? no, duncan, no, dirk, no. It's really held them back too...

Quote:

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If you put Old man Jon Koncak in the MWC, he will come away with 18 points/12 rebs a game.

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So the tourney, olympics and international play were just flukes? He rebounded well in every instance and the experts seem to agree that he is a naturally gifted rebounder. You've seen him play, what, twice, maybe? These experts have seen him play...nearly every game of his career.. Who really has the basis to pass judgement, you or them?

Quote:

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Toni Kukoc is having a little trouble trying to adjust to NBA basketball. He has some of the best passing skills in the NBA (though his teammates don't always expect it), and has developed into a reasonable shooter. He is still rather slow and weak on defense.

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haha, so where exactly does he say that Toni "wanted to play defense"? He doesn't, there's nothing in that quote that even suggests it. You're trying to throw up some smoke screen to back up your amateur opinions.

I love how you throw around all these absolutes about Bogut. He WILL do this, or he WON'T do that. As if you are some sort of expert. Sorry, but you aren't an expert. You don't watch all the games, you don't see the private workouts, you don't see the practices. You have no more access to information than anyone else here. Yet you speak in absolutes as if you were an expert. Just because you ride people until they get tired of responding, talking longer and louder than anyone else is willing to do, doesn't make you an expert. It makes you the internets version of Stephen A. Smith, without a press pass.

[Diesel]

Quote:

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a good passer, period. He does not lack athleticism. Most reports consider him to be fairly athletic for his size BUT he lacks some lateral quickness. Again, you stretch ONE thing to mean things that it is not. How many 7 footers have a lot of vertical lift? shaq? no, duncan, no, dirk, no. It's really held them back too...

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We agree. In that Utah Offense, playing against MWC competition, he was a good passer. I don't know where his passing went when he played good competition, but I will give you that he's a good passer when he can throw over the top of his opponent.

However, You say I stretch the lateral quickness issue to mean one thing... But you can take this to the bank... Look at what happens when he plays players who are quicker than him. He gets ABUSED... Don't you see the connection? You guys heem and haw because guys like Thomas and Harris are shorter. But Height has little to do with it, they both said they took it right to Bogut because they knew he lacked speed going side to side and they scored 24 and 27 points respectively on OVER 60% FG% because Bogut is bad defensively.... Especially when facing people with good lateral quickness. So the question you must ask... How many guys will he face in the NBA that are similar to the stiffs he played in the MWC? My answer is probably NONE. Normally, those slow footed clods don't get on the court. I can see it now, Guys like Brad Miller and Antonio Davis will have career highs going against Bogut.

Quote:

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So the tourney, olympics and international play were just flukes? He rebounded well in every instance and the experts seem to agree that he is a naturally gifted rebounder.

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He was outrebounded in every game of the olympics by his opponents.

In the tourney... Let's see who did he face... BOOKOUT = 6'8" center from OK. John Tofi of Utep who average 6.2 rebs per game made his 6 rebs against Bogut. And Kentucky played an assortment of big men..

[Nicholasp27]

LOL...you're credibility goes down by the post when you talk about bogut...why so much hatred for him that you gotta lie?

Quote:

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He was outrebounded in every game of the olympics by his opponents.

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vs Angola

Bogut: 11 rebounds

Angola: 9 rebounds for best rebounder

vs Puerto Rico

Bogut: 11 rebounds

Puerto Rico: 7 rebounds for best rebounder (their pg..the centers had either 2 or 0)

vs Greece

Bogut: 5 rebounds

Greece: 9 rebounds by best rebounder (5 by 2nd best...not sure if 9 rebounder is center)

vs Lithuania

Bogut: 9 rebounds

Lithuania: 9 rebounds by best rebounder (5 by 2nd best...not sure if 9 rebounder is center)

vs New Zealand

Bogut: 10 rebounds

New Zealand: 6 for best player

vs USA

Bogut: 8 rebounds

Duncan: 11...but 3 were when Andersen was in, 8 while Bogut was in

so Bogut tied or outrebounded the BEST player on EVERY team except Greece...and we aren't even sure if that player, or any of the tied players were even big men...

do u wanna make up any more bullshit lies?

[Nicholasp27]

i went ahead and looked, and here it is...they are centers, but only one outrebounded him

US:

Duncan 11 center

Bogut 8

(but 8 for duncan while bogut was in...so a tie)

New Zealand:

Marks 6 center

Bogut 10

Lithuania:

Javtokas 9 center

Bogut 9

Greece:

Papadopoulos 9 center

Bogut 5

Puerto Rico:

Ortiz 6 center

Bogut 11

Angola:

Gomes 9 center

Bogut 11

[troubleman]

I had to comment on this Toni Kukoc stuff. How in the world are you comparing a slow footed sf to a center? Lacking lateral quickness at the 1,2, or 3 spots will make a terrible defender, but it's not as big of a deal at the 4 or 5. The one place it might hurt is the pick and roll, but that goes for just about any center in the league (key point is "just about").

Also your comparison of Kandi Man and Bogut is offbase, because Kandi-Man has always lacked desire. He has the skills to perform at a good level, but he vanishes after the 1st quarter. Bogut doesn't have that problem. Kaman will be solid center in the league if he can stay healthy, but he does not have the offensive tools of Bogut. Pryzbilla was not a big scorer in college, but his rebounding and blocked shots have carried over.

Honestly, I would love to have Bogut because he will solve a big problem on this Hawks team. Guys like Kwame Brown, Stromile Swift, and Tyson Chandler (hell throw in Dalembert), have done nothing in their careers to make me believe they have a bigger upside than Bogut.

[Diesel]

I compared their lateral quickness (toni and Bogut) they both lack it and they both suffer on defense because of it.

Also, you say that it doesn't matter for the 4, 5 as much.. That's TOTAL BS!! As a person who played the 5, let me tell you that defense at the 5 is ALL footwork. A 5 has to be able to slide, move, body up, keep his position and when the ball is rotated, he has to be able to rotate with it. You guys thought that Deke was dominating because he could block shots, but you missed that he had excellent footwork. He was quick enough to slide to where the ball was rotated and be in position to block the shot.

Bogut doesn't have lateral quickness. He gets abused by faster players. In the NBA, when the ball is rotated, he will be as effective as Drobs. AND Desire does not make up the difference.

The comparison with Khandi was right on and here is why. Coming out of college, Khandi had dominated the competition he faced. He went to a small school in a lowly conference too.. For that reason you could put Foyle in that mix too.

Foyle's senior year: 24.4 ppg, 14.3 rpg, 6.4 bpg.

Olowakhandi's Senior year: 22.2 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 2.9 bpg.

Nowhere is there a desire stat and you can only make a determination about Olowakhandi's and Foyle's desire AFTER the fact... Because while playing in college they both looked like they had great desire to make it as pros.

Quote:

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1994 Adonal Foyle made the unorthodox decision to attend Colgate, a small liberal arts college in upstate New York, rather than one of the traditional basketball schools. In his statement to the press, he explained that he wanted the opportunity to learn the principles of the game in a slower paced setting, where the coach would be able to give him the attention he desired.

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Quote:

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Foyle is the third player in NCAA history to accumulate 1700 points, 1000 rebounds and 450 blocked shots in a career. He also posted four career triple-doubles, had six games with 10 or more blocks. Adonal was named the Patriot League Rookie of the Year and the first freshman to ever earn First Team All-Patriot League honors. As a sophomore he was named the Patriot League's Male Scholar-Athlete of the Year, and was named the 1996 Patriot League Player of the Year during his junior year.

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Quote:

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Michael Olowokandi has so much potential, he warrants a top five pick on that alone. When Michael came to UOP from England the guy had raw athletic ability at best, he was a junior champion in the triple jump while in high school in England. However, it is his unquestionable work ethic that has propelled him into the upper levels in college basketball. The "Kandi Man" has great strength, 350lb bench press 1200lb leg press, and quickness. He developed an outstanding turn around jump shot and a baby hook his senior season, after being plagued my erratic playing time his sophmore year and injuries his junior year. He has the ability to step up in big games, Stanford and Fresno State this year, and can take over down the strech and score in bunches.

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Quote:

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The Kandi man definately can. He's got game. I've watched him play all year at Pacific. He's very, very active on both sides of the court, and it's evident when he fighting for position on the the block, defending, setting picks, etc. Big Mike already has all the physical attributes to be a great center, big hands, active body, quickness, long arms, and is extremely strong, so the athleticism is there. It was rumored that he can bench 500+. THis guy IS ripped !!! In England, he ran track, played croquet and rugby. Olowakandi SHOULD be a great defender at his position. Offensively, he's favored that right handed baby hook and turn around fade away, and he's been working out with assistant coaches to develop a wider range of moves. He also needs to work on his passing and dribbling as well. But he's a very intellegent kid and seems to enjoy this game a lot. Heck, that's the reason why he came to America in the first place, to ball.

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Quote:

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For Michael Olowokandi, the journey has been nothing short of remarkable. The son of Nigerian diplomats, he was raised and schooled in London and the sport of basketball played only a peripheral part of his life until he arrived at Brunel University in London i 1994. Taking tentative steps into the game during his first year there, Olowokandi found a niche, and deciding to learn the game almost from scratch, the 2.10 athlete wrote to hundreds of colleges in the USA looking for a place. Choosing an unorthodox route and having only undeveloped potential and height, few replied despite his offer to pay his own way there, but eventually Olowokandi ended up in Pacific University's basketball programme.

With intensive coaching and a will to learn, he now stands as a projected # 2 pick in the forthcoming NBA Draft,

the annual ordered selection of new collegiate and foreign talent with the 29 premier clubs in world basketball.

---

[troubleman]

Quote:

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I compared their lateral quickness (toni and Bogut) they both lack it and they both suffer on defense because of it.

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Yeah, but because of their positions one will suffer more than the other.

Quote:

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Also, you say that it doesn't matter for the 4, 5 as much.. That's TOTAL BS!! As a person who played the 5, let me tell you that defense at the 5 is ALL footwork. A 5 has to be able to slide, move, body up, keep his position and when the ball is rotated, he has to be able to rotate with it. You guys thought that Deke was dominating because he could block shots, but you missed that he had excellent footwork. He was quick enough to slide to where the ball was rotated and be in position to block the shot.

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Not true at all. Centers and power forwards are not required to have great lateral quickness, because the area they defend (the majority of the time) is a lot smaller than 1's, 2's, and 3's. Of course they have to be able to rotate, but again the area is smaller. Your comparison to Drobs was so offbase, it's borderline ridiculous.

Quote:

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Bogut doesn't have lateral quickness. He gets abused by faster players. In the NBA, when the ball is rotated, he will be as effective as Drobs. AND Desire does not make up the difference.

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Most true centers get abused by faster players. That's why the pick and roll is so popular, because most times you will get a matchup that favors the offensive players. If Deke is switched against McGrady, hell even a guy like Dion Glover, they will go around him because he is not quick enough to guard those guys.

Quote:

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The comparison with Khandi was right on and here is why. Coming out of college, Khandi had dominated the competition he faced. He went to a small school in a lowly conference too.. For that reason you could put Foyle in that mix too.

Foyle's senior year: 24.4 ppg, 14.3 rpg, 6.4 bpg.

Olowakhandi's Senior year: 22.2 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 2.9 bpg.

Nowhere is there a desire stat and you can only make a determination about Olowakhandi's and Foyle's desire AFTER the fact... Because while playing in college they both looked like they had great desire to make it as pros.

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It's offbase, because the only thing keeping Olowakhandi from being a good center in the NBA is his desire. He has the skills to perform at a decent level, but he is lazy. I didn't see Olowakhandi in college, so I could not make my own judgement (not some website or scouts judgement) on his desire in college. I'm sure he showed signs, but many people overlook it because they see other things they love. And let me go on record right now and say that I don't believe that Bogut will be a great defender, but I do believe he will surpass the expectations of some of his detractors on this board. Bogut has proven in college and international play that he has the desire. I'm not even going to discuss Foyle, because he has never, even in college, had the offensive skills of Bogut.

I've seen Paul (who has been abused by bigger guards), D Williams, and Marvin Williams mentioned because of their "upside", but I find it strange that some people do not see the same upside in Bogut. People mention lateral quickness, which is only one aspect of a defenders game. You, and others, need to realize that one player does not make or break a great defensive team. The Hawks with Deke were a pretty good defensive team, despite the fact that Laettner and Henderson were not good defenders at the 4 spot. San Antonio is a great defensive team despite the fact that Rasho and Nazr are not good defenders. Hell, Detroit is a great defensive team, but Rip Hamilton is not a great defender. Most great defensive teams have 3 or more players that are good defenders on the court and the others simply buy into the philosophy.

[Diesel]

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I didn't see Olowakhandi in college, so I could not make my own judgement (not some website or scouts judgement) on his desire in college. I'm sure he showed signs, but many people overlook it because they see other things they love.

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Just get used to saying that about Bogut!