GoDawgs21

no saying I disagree with any of this here at all. But shhhhhhhhhhh............ don't let any of the BK haters hear that Roy was a scoring guard and would have been an exact replicia of JJ. Everyone loves ripping on BK for passing on Roy because he was in their eyes a franchise PG last year. This is the same argument I posed last year against Roy, while talented he was just as redundent as draft any other 2.

This is becoming absurd. We draft Marvin knowing he will probably take 3 years to develop. He hada very solid season last year after it took nearly a month to fully get back what the wrist injury cost him. Now in what should be his break-out year some of you want to trade him and a lotto pick for bad contracts adn a bag of peanuts. It seems this happens every year fans become infatuated with the talk that is going on now. It may be college football and recruiting or predraft hype. Fans are ready to push out the proven players for the unknown based on hype. I want an honest answer. Is Conley THAT much better then Law to give up Marvin who is just 21 and coming into his own?????????????? That is just absurd. I love all the pop shots BK receives. IF you want to attack his drafting so be it, I don't agree seeing how all of his players even 2nd round picks are all playing and are also valuable assets. However, please explain to me your comment that he gets taken in trades ????????? So lets review trades: Jon Barry for T Lue, I'd say that was a win for us. Diaw and a late 2008 draft pick for JJ, ummmmmmmm Diaw and what may be a 13 or 14th pick 3 years after the deal for an ALL-Star, yep he really got had there. Al Harrington for the 11th pick, so how is Ind doing with Murphy??? We would be in there shoes, no pick and with his contract so large for 4 yrs no room for FA, so all of you wanting Law or Critt could get used to Lue and Speedy with no hope of changing that had we gone that route. Note this was the only other solid offer reported. So we would have another F with a huge deal, and you thought we were loaded at F as is imagine Murphy in the mix now. Rasheed who was a FA and was most assuredly not resigning for 17th pick. I'll take that JT for Tione, ok you got me on this one. But BK was trying to shake things up, but this was just not working out While some of the early trades, JT, Theo, Rahim, may be iffy it was amazing that BK was able to get rid of those contracts at all. We were a 40 win team with no salary cap room and may have to take a little bit less then market value to move some contracts. While they may not have been idle they werent rapings. Oh and just for fun, Pau Gasol for Rahim. So please tell me were BK got completely raped on a trade. You can walk blindly and follow the popular masses, and disagree with his drafting, but honestly BK and his trades have worked out for the most part.

WOW Could you draw a more biased conclusion off of half stats. Yes while BK has drafted these F's there are other circumstances. Its very narrow minded to just look at the players. BK has simply taken the BPA. In generally there are elite PG's and then the rest, just role players that dont factor. So if you don't get an elite PG why not take the BPA. Diaw was the 17th pick, so your saying there was a great C or PG after the 17h pick, oh and Diaw has become a vital cog in a team. Smith at 14 (?) really name a better player late in the draft. Also a very good player in the NBA. Childress, soooo you wanted Deng, Iggy, oh wait even if he takes the guys you want it would have been another F. Chill is still a very good player and contributor. Marvin was considered in that draft as 1 of 2 top players. that draft was similar to this draft, predraft all talk was aboutb 2 guys. Even Chad Ford predraft who hates BK said he didnt see how we could pass on Marvin, gee like you hindsight is Chad's weapon of choice. Marvin still hasnt been a bust. Guys like Rafeal Arrojo are bust. Shelden I can see your argument if you wanted Foye or Roy. So thats 1 out of your 8 cases where the player taken wasnt the BPA, or there were only F's like Iggy or Deng there. I suppose teams that succeed with a lot of F's like Detroit, Clev, etc are doing things wrong too. My point is BK hasn't wiffed on a single pick. You may personally like the pick, but each of BK's picks still have value and use and are guys other teams covet. Would you rathr have picks like Ed Gray, DeMarr Johnson, or Priest that 3 years later arent even in the lague and have no trade value?????????

So on Chill's runner he gets pushed to the ground no fould, but then twice the ball is knocked from Amare and Lo and Speedy get bogus fouls. I usually cn't stand people whining about refs, but i will admit this is borderline absurd.

There is no way you can say one way or the other bust or not not even 2/3 of the way through 1 season. Secondly, Shell has some nice moves, but please name me one time all year a pla was run speciffically for him. He gets his 6-8 pts nightly without one possession designed for him. It's way to early to say one way or the other. My point about the rebounding was when I used rebounding to show Shell is having an impact. How you can say the leading rookie rebounder is a bust is funny, but whatever. So your statement of "anyone can rebound wooohooo" means that shouldn't matter so much. Im not saying Smith isn't amazing either. Just if you aren't goign to use the stats a guy is in the game for i.e. Shell with reb and Smith with blocks etc then whats the point. Shell is in the game to rebound and he does his job. he isnt in there to score. I was just showing you you can't ignore stats at will. You proved my point you response about how Smith is the best player beside JJ etc is what I wanted you to say. Your reasoning is he gets blocks, reb, etc. Thats his job. Shell job is to rebound which he does. You say he cant score, but he isnt out there to score. Thats why I showed you if you just look at ppg, then your hero in smith is only marginally better then Marvin. you have to look at the entire package.

How I missed Soth's rants. Or being born on Oct. 21, 1983 makes him 23. For who said rebounding doesn't matter. Clearly the only thing that matters to you is scoring. I guess you would love watching the Grizz go up and down and lose everynight. But answer this if all you are concerned about is PPG, why is one guy is treated like king in his 3rd NBA year (when most improvement happens) with 14.7 ppg. Then a player who is younger and only in his 2nd year rattled with injuries to his hand (kind of important in scoring) has 12.3 ppg. Yet is treated like the black plague. ?????????????????? If scoring is all that matters as you say anyone can get rebs, why do you love Smoove so much more then Marvin when the 2nd year guy is only 2.4 ppg behind while playing almost 8 min less a game. Funny how you only look at certain stats when they matter to your particular argument.

Yeh I know exactly what you mean. Our biggest problem last year was interior defense and rebounding. So our draft pick in only roughly 20 min a game and while being injuried is the leading rookie rebounder. Uh, so we had a problem, and we drafted the guy who out of the entire draft is going that best. I clearly see your point. I think people whine to just whine.

I like Law alot, but the best PG if he comes out is Collison out of UCLA. Having several 15 assist games in NCAA is nuts.

Hawksfantic, I love you calling others idiots for not understanding the cap. However, it you yourself that looks like the complete moron. Yes while your pea sized brain processed we can take on as much salary up to the cap limit, and this just takes out 2.5 of that. You completely missed his point. In the NBA there are guidelines for trading. Trades have to have be a % of relative porportion. Thus, if team A trades with team B a player with a salary of $6 million, team B must send back roughly $4 million in assets. Thats why in most trades proposed in "trade checkers" we always send out more players. While you say Marvin for Bibby makes sense. The problem is Marvin is on his rookie contract making less then a quarter of what Bibby does. So other pieces picks, trade exceptions, or otehr player saleries have to be included. So before getting AJ and his 2.5 million, any trades we would be involved in would most likely have to include us giving up more players or picks due to their relative salary. Would you rather in a trade include with Marvin; AJ or say childress. Teams will have to recieve that amount from somewhere so who would you rather send as the necessary filler AJ or Chill? That coupled with this summer his contract becoming an expiring contract that teams will desire. Make sense now. Next time dig your head out of your ass and pay attention.

Not to rehash, but i wasted an entire afternoon debunking this bad draft theory. See the below from a previous post. While BK may not have gotten the guy you wanted. All his pics are worth something on the open market. I reiderrated this after sitting courtside with Mr. Levenson, he said "We have a lot of sought after pieces". Meaning if we need to fill a hole we have players worth something to get guys in return. I pointed out in this post there wasnt but 3 other GMS that can say everyone of their picks has valuable trade or valubale contributions on their teams. So while it may not be the "perfect" draft that you think ever GM should have look at the compiled list with which spot on average they pick. Then tell me 20 GMS that havent done worse then BK Quote: Re: Here is where BK really screwed up... [Re: BossTweed] #175167 - 11/07/06 11:55 AM Edit Reply Quote Call it a slow day at work, but just to show what we are saying by picks better GM, here are teams drafts for 2003,2004,2005 since the 2006 rookies havent played enough to judge they will not be included. The teams are ranked in avg. pick number. This only includes 1st rounders. SO logically the teams with the lower draft postion should be worse picks. Those at the top of the list have had picks of better caliber players. Avg Pick 1) 4.5 Mil- 8)TJ Ford, 1)Andrew Bogut 2) 5.5 Cle- 1)Lebron James, 10)Luke Jackson 3) 5.6 Chi- 7)Kirk Hinrich, 3)Ben Gordon, 7)Loul Deng 4) 6.6 Cha- 2)Emkea Okafor, 5)Raymond Felton,13)Sean May 5) 7.3 LAC- 6)Kaman, 4) Livingston, 12)Yaraslov Korolev 6) 8.5 NYK- 9)Frye, 8)Sweetney 7) 8.8 Tor- 4)Bosh, 8)Arajuo, 7)Villenueva, 16)J. Graham 8) 9 Phi- 9)Iguedola 9) 10 Was- 10)Jarvis Hayes 10) 10.3 GST- 11)Pietrus, 11)Biedrinis, 9)Diogiu 11) 11.8 Atl- 22)Boris, 6)Chill, 17)Smoove, 2)Marvin 12) 12 Orl- 16)R. Gains, 1)Howard, 20)Nelson, 11)Vazquez 13) 13.3 Uta- 20)Pavlovic, 14)Humphries, 16)Snyder, 3)Deron 14) 13.6 NO - 19)West, 18) JR Smith, 4) Paul 15) 16 Sea- 12)Collison, 15)Ridnour, 12)Swift, 25)Petro 16) 16.6 Den- 3)Melo, 20)Julis Hodge, 27) Linos Kleiza 17) 17.6 Mia- 5)Wade, 19)Dorell Wright, 29)Wayne Simon 18) 18 Det- 2)Darko, 26)Delfino, 26)Jason Maxell 19) 18.3 Por- 24)Outlaw, 13)Telfair, 22)Khyrpa, 23)Monia, 6)Jack, 22)Martell Wbster 20) 18.6 Dal- 30)Howard, 5)Harris, 21)Pavel Podkolzine 21) 19 NJN- 23)Zoran Planic 22) 19.5 PHX- 18)Cabarkaba, 21)Nate Robinson 23) 20 Bos- 17)T. bell, 21)D. Jones, 15)Jefferson, 18)Green, 24) West, 25) Allen 24) 20.3 Mem- 14)Banks, 28)Perkins, 19)Warrick 25) 20.5 Min- 27)Nbudi Ebi, 14)Rashd McCants 26) 20.6 LAL- 25)Cook, 27)Vujaecic, 10)Bynum 27) 23 Ind- 29)Harrison, 17)Granger 28) 24 Hou- 24) Luther Head 29) 24.5 Sac- 26) Kevin Martin, 23) F. Garcia 30) 28.3 SA- 29)Barbosa, 28) Udrih, 28) Ian Mahiuni Have fun but name 5 teams with better total picks, not just one guy cause they had a high pick and then compare that years pick wtih Atl. Name 5 teams with better drafts. PLEASE. I will give you with avg picks worse then ours Dal, NO, and Utah have done better.

That's what I love about this board. Pre road trip all the naysayers and negative posters were saying we will go 0-5 or 1-4. Some even said we wouldn't win a game in Feb. with that brutal schedule. Yes it was a bad loss, but for all the bitching. We just went 3-2 on a road trip and are .500 in Feb. Take that month of Dec. out when half our roster was out and this is a .500 team. Thats what we are. Gotta love the people that come out to bash and only talk about last night and not going 3-2 on a road trip that was against 4 WC teams.

Quote: With all that being said, I would be ecstatic if the team, including Speedy, could get completely healthy and really look good together. It could be that we just haven't had a chance to look at this team with all the pieces together and healthy at the same time. Maybe we'll get a glimpse of that tonight. Wow finally someone got it. When the majority of our players were out we went 3-13. Before and after when jsut missing a key pieces we have been .500. .500 might be good enough for a 5 or 6 seed this year. For everyone talking about how bad the Hawks are, Friday will be the first time practice or gmae that we have had our entire lineupas we invisioned it this summer together. Thats half a season without even being able to practice a play with all of your guys in. This being said we still have an outside shot, remote, but shot at the playoffs, and a good chance for our best record in 6 years. So tell me how is this an awful team? Midseason is the first time everyone is healthy and yet it still will be our best team in 6 years? Yeh Billy really screwed us. What a joke. If you cant see what this team would be like firing on all cylinders then jump ship now, I dont want you to be a fan when are winning.

Quote: ... They extorted two picks for their 4th best player. We gave away our 2nd best player for a single pick. And the list goes on and on... Probably the funniest thing I have read all year. So just because Al was our second best player we should get more. So by that logic since the Lakers traded Shaq their second best player, for Odom, Grant, 2 picks, and Butler we should have gotten something equivalent to that since they were both steconed best players on their teams. First off JJ was there 2nd or 3rd option depending on the matchup. But that happens to be behind the 2 time league MVP. Then Al is on a team with nobody over 21 yrs old. Come on now, with the latest trade its pretty safe to say there wasnt much out there and teams know he is a bum now. There is nothing even close about JJ and Al, JJ plays 40+ min everynight plays great d on the other teams best player, and then is expected to get 30 on top of that. JJ is an amazing player. Note we kept our pick last year since it was protected. So for all this whining so far all we have given up is Diaw. With all the belly aching about the log jam at F I think that would be making everyone happy. Lose the bench weight at a deep position, and get an all-star. Sorry it didn't work out for you. I love all the tank talk on here too. While we have played 4 fewer games then most teams in the league all while suffer major injuries. We are 5 games out of the 8 spot, yes Miami will get better. But we do have games in hand against most everyone else.

I can't wait for my corn dogs, and I should get a bonus for calling the push on the blocks. Joe Johnson 23 points +/- over Royal Ivey 3 points +/- over Josh Childress 15 points +/- under Marvin shooting 35% from the field +/- over Total number of 3's made by Hawks 4.5 +/- over Gerald Wallace 9.5 rebounds +/- under Adam Morrison 18 points +/- under Shelden Williams 6.5 rebounds +/- under Josh Smith 3.5 blocks +/- over

Hawks win by 5 +/- (over) Joe Johnson 28 points +/- (under) Solomon Jones 9 minutes of playing time +/- (under) Joe Johnson 6 assists +/- (under) Josh Childress 9 rebounds +/- (over) Shelden Williams 7 rebounds +/- (over) Adam Morrison 16 points +/- (under) Salim Stoudamire 10 points +/- (under) Marvin Williams 15 points +/- (over) Josh Smith 4 blocks +/- (push)

Can I please bookmark this one. So let me get this straight 2 years after a draft you want to trade the 2nd pick for kibbles and bits. Jack is a good player, but for Marvin. I realize some people aren't happy with Marvin, but they at least suggest plausable trades. Marvin is 20 in his second season and is still playing with a hurt hand. With his role at UNC Marvin is more like the high school picks then most people suggest. He is being brought along slower. The first 3 months last year he avg less then 10 minutes a game. I bet LA is kicking them selves in the foot for keeping that Kobe kid, I mean in his second year he was airballing 3's in playoff games, and avg just over 15 pts a game. Why didnt they trade him after that second year when he was 20. Damn Jerry West. Playing on a playoff team with quality players around him Kobe: Year 1: KB: 7.6 pts, 1.3 ast, 1.8 rebs MW: 8.5 pts, 1 ast, 4.6 reb Year 2: KB: 15.4 pts, 2.3 ast, 3.3 rebs MW: 11.6 pts, 2.1 ast, 4.7 rebs I know they dont play the same postion, and I'm not saying Marvin will be a Kobe, but um he is right on track with development with guys like O'Neal, Byrant, KG, etc. So yeh lets trade him for Jack right now. Can't anyone here have patience. I swear its a land full of chicken littles. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant/career_stats.html Marvin for Jack?????????????? and if we really want another piece throw in Speedy huh, wow can I please do transactions with you in real life.

So Walt in your wisdom I know you were on the phone with BK and GS about the trade. Nobody ever mentioned Ellis in any trade talk, because why would GS give him up. Its nice to see we could do this or could do that, but in actuallity this is what GS was willing to give up to get AH. SO in your scenario they give up a more vitale player in Ellis then Diogu, but dont get any thing beside harrington. Ummmm, so what they did do was get another starter in Jackson and harrington and didnt have to give up Ellis. yep Im sure he was part of the original offer then. My whole point of this post was who got the better deal for Harrington. Without your BK hate glasses on look at it: Harrington.......1st rd pick Jackson, Harrington..... Murphy,Dunleavy, Diogu I take that top one and aviod 30 million in salaries any day. Special when that will cause you not to sign your top young guys, and all three recieved already play the positions of Smoove, Shelden, and Childress. So not taking this trade what other options might have BK had this summer?

So for all of you guys out there yelling at BK for getting fleeced in the Harrington deal, would you have done this. Purely hypothetical, but it is easy to assume that this is was GS asked for in the offseason. Harrington, plus maybe a role guy (bet they asked for Chillz or Salim) in Jackson's place. For Murphy, Dunleavy, and Diogu. So two of the worst contracts in the NBA, and a undersized rebounder (Ike Diogu Height: 6' 8" Weight: 255 lbs.) Now that sounds just like Shelden. I know he may not have lived up to everything, but he was brought in as a undersized PF to grab rebounds. So in the offseason when you get Shelden to fill the role of Diogu are you willing to take on the extreme salaries of Murphy and Dunleavy. Both who have severlly underpreformed???? Just asking who got fleeced, Harrington for a 1st rd pick in an extremely deep draft or Harrington and Jackson for Diogu, Murphy, and Dunleavey. Yes, Indiana got players back but at close to 30 million in 2009-2010. Who else are they going to have on their team. With those contracts you could have said goodbye to Chill, Smoove, and Marv. So your left iwth that nucleaus in 2010. HAHAHAHA

Point taken exodus, but my question was what team with 3 starters missing over 5 games ???????????? Your list is from teams, Allen hurt still have Redd, Ridnour, etc playing all games. Shaq, still had DWade, Williams, Haslam, Walker, etc. For 10 games we played without our starting PG, 15 games without our starting SF and second scoring option, 5 games without the number 4 scorer in the league. Then now 16 without our number 6 guy that was avg 14/7. Honestly I'm not even goin to speak of the dribbling machine known as Lue, I hate to say this, but with his no defense dribblin antics, I know I will get slammed for this, but I want to see if we are better without him. I know he is our locker room guy, but honeslty i want 5 games without him, as a trial. If we are worse so be it i was wrong, but at least see if we can trade him for something else we need (i.e. a replacemnt for LO) Back to my point, yes other teams have injuries but name one team that has had 3 starters out for more then 5 games this early in the season. That's espically hard when most of our games have been road games.

Everyone is saying this and that about the Hawks, Moore rips into BK today in the paper. How bout one media guy wait just to see what we have. Everyone was excited about the possibilites coming into the season. We have been far more competative in every game, losing in close ones. Everyone is pointing fingers even though we are 8 games ahead of last years pace. So there is one thing I don't understand that hasn't being said. Our starting lineup projected for the season has started ONE F$##@%#ING GAME TOGTHER. Say what you want about this team, but the lineup we all looked forward to of Speedy, JJ, Marv, SMith, and Zaza. Has started only one game with that lineup (being Sat. vs Chicago). I want to know another team in the league that has had to deal with 3 starters missing for time. I would have loved to seen the press if Denver hadn't got AI. If they would have gone 4-11 or 5-10 during the stretch with all of the suspension people would give George Karl a key to the f'ng city saying "He held them close till everyone got back". I am the biggest Woody hater, but to judge this team is unfair. I love Moore writing this column now after Speedy post two straight games with 11 assist. Maybe you should have written this back when he was hurt, or before he got 5 + steals in 3 straight games. OOPS! We are one game out of the playoffs, and just now are getting all our players back. We have played 13 road games compared to 10 home games, with basically half our starting line up. We have already gone through one of our 2 West road trips. Jump ship if you want, but its ludacris for anyone to say anything so far. Nobody knows what this team is really capable of. How bout we give our starting lineup 10 games to play before we even say anything good or bad. For all the chicken littles out there yelling about that sky, take a deep breath.

Zaza, wasnt a discount???? I agree with you actually for once TP which is absurdly scary, i give BK about a B overall. People get on here and act like he is Babcock or something, he is slowly getting everything in order. Patience people, you act like a 5 yr old. For everyone's whining, we are actually a competitaive team besides 3 games (Philly, Orl, Sad) we have been ahead at sme pont every game and in contintion to win coming down the stretch. Please show me were in th last 7 years we can say we had a team that was NBA competeitve night in and night out or at least 17/20 games. We are a young team, and yet we are still hanging around with age and maturatiy late this season or next we will win those close ones. It takes baby steps folks. 3 years is a relativley quick turn around, look at Boston, Chi, Clips, Sac, Den, etc. they all took about 4 years. Give it time, none of those teams started from scratch scratch, they at least had several pieces to trade or do whatever wth. BK got nothing and is at least building the team. For the poster that said we were stuck in quicksand, I am puzzled. 13 wins, 26 wins, on pace for 34 so far with all of our injuries its no stretch to think for a better finish, so maybe 38 or 40 this year. I dont think that is quicksandish.

TP, yes BK could go after these guys, but what if they dont want to come???????? We got LO late after seeing what the money we had to spend (not the cap, but what the courts appeased by way of Belkin and owners agreeing to) he more then likely wanted to play here. We needed a veteran presence and he wanted to be here. We dont need attitudes on the team that I am here for a paycheck and thats it. You say Damp and Kmart, note we never offered KMart the max thats why he didnt come. Secondly, we never made an offical offer to Dampier, do you not remember Buck and Kincaid lambasting BK for not tossing money at him. It was rumored because we were under the cap, but it was never actually brought about. Lastly, did you not even read my article or the Sekou article that said Speedy's knee problem was not CRONIC, but temporary. The team preferad him to rest so he could completely get over the injury, and it would be lagging all season. Speedy came out and said he wanted to play both the Sea and Den games but was told by the coaches he would be needed late into the season, and they didnt want him having a nagging injury all year.

NBASUPERSTAR, after reading your other moronic post, I questioned your watching the NBA for 8 years and Hawks fan for 9, but now I know it. The question was what other moves has BK done. The answer, wasnt we should trade Lue for Barry now. The answer was we got Lue from Houston by trading them Barry right before he retired. I brought this up because TP mentioned that Lue was one of our surprises and contributors. Just saying at the time of the deal nobody even cared. Like the Detriot deals, but give it some time and look how it might turn out. Please think before you act.

Jon Barry for Lue ? I've posted previously the last 4 drafts and teams avg. drafting positon and what kind of picks the teams have gotten. Say what you want about our drafts, they may not be the player you ideally wanted, but he is one of 3 GM's without a bust. Joe Dumars won GM of the year. What did he do? He picked up Richard Hamilton for Jerry Stackhouse which at the time looked horrible. Got Billups which nobody liked. Then drafted Prince. He also drafted Darko, now letting Wallace go. I just wonder if in the next year if we are a playoff team what these deals will look like. For a year or so it looked like Lue for Barry was meaningless, but now look. It's been 18 games with Speedy who is coming back, and appearently the knee thing isn't cronic its a temporary thing. Give it a full year before you dismiss it.

The whole point of the article was lottery picks, aside from his rookie of te year, thus no solomon.