My take on the pg situation

[Lascar78]

I am talking about over all effect on the team, not just assists and turnovers.

Again, Lue hogs the ball for 90% of the shot clock, and gives it up to someone in a bad position who has to force a shot. That gives you assists sooner or later. Ivey gives it up much sooner, is more unselfish, and moves around alot more without the ball to try to get things done. I think the latter is more useful to the team even though it doesn't show up as much in the boxscore. Especially when the said player is a better shooter and a better defender.

[exodus]

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that's why the great majority of us that watch lue every game are annoyed by how much he plays and when...we all say the same thing...he dribbles wayy too long and passes only to guarded men...when those men jack up a desperation shot and it goes in, lue gets an assist...doesn't mean lue is a pg...he doesn't create shots or opportunities...

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And how many opportunities did Ivey create?

You guys are really reaching. The Hawks are struggling

for offense all year yet somehow they are able to consistently make desparation heaves at the end of the clock ONLY when Lue passes them the ball. LOL

[Lascar78]

Ivey gives a man the ball, and gives him a chance to create, and if there's nothing there you have time to reset because he didn't dribble it around for 18 seconds. He also doesn't let his man light him the hell up on the other end of the floor

Nobody's arguing that Ivey is a good distributor (cough*strawmanargument*cough), so stop trying to disprove that. We're saying that he's better than Lue because while he's basically as inadequate a distributor as Lue, he's better at every other facet of the game and doesn't cost us over half of each posession due to him dribbling around for no reason

I'm out

[Nicholasp27]

they struggle offensively when lue is in the game...period

when he isn't in the game, they pass to each other more and there is more ball movement and off-ball movement

ivey hasn't set up too many shots because he's only played 77 mins all year long...way too few for someone our best defensive 1...ivey/jj is a defensive backcourt that can also pass and score

u do watch all of the games, right? u do see that lue will sit there at half court, dribbling the ball, even stretching his legs by grabbing one of his feet from behind (like he did last night)...

[Lascar78]

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u do see that lue will sit there at half court, dribbling the ball, even stretching his legs by grabbing one of his feet from behind (like he did last night)...

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haha, I'd never thought about that, that is really annoying come to think of it. It's like he thinks each posession is one in which we must try to score as close to the 24 second clock as possible

[macdaddy]

Lue played ok in the second half but Ivey deserves a more of a chance. Here is my post from another thread. Did anyone notice this:

I made a mental note. The score was 10-8 when Ivey went out. A couple minutes later it was 22-8.

Why not play this lineup:

Ivey/Salim/JJ/Al/ZaZa.

[exodus]

Yeah I noticed that. I also noticed that the Hawks made their late game comeback with Lue on the floor hitting key shots. Lue isn't the reason Denver could attack the rim at will. And it wasn't Lue's turnovers that led to the fast breaks during Denver's first quarter run.

[exodus]

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they struggle offensively when lue is in the game...period

when he isn't in the game, they pass to each other more and there is more ball movement and off-ball movement

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I guess you must have forgotten the games Lue missed. They scored 85 points and 74 points in those games.

*waits for nonsensical excuse*

[Nicholasp27]

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I also noticed that the Hawks made their late game comeback with Lue on the floor hitting key shots.

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again, except for his lack of turnovers and his 'accidental assists,' lue's best attribute is that he can hit shots...

in other words:

lue is a SHOOTING GUARD who is good at not turning the ball over, but he's too short to play sg so he plays pg

[Nicholasp27]

a) variance...sample size too small

b) we missed his 10ppg that woulda put us at normal range

c) our team as a whole scores more ppg when lue is off the court than on the court

[exodus]

LOL sample size LOL. How about this. The two biggest scoring games of the year were accomplished with JJ making only 6 field goals total.

When he shoots a lot the Hawks score less. And "shooting guard" Lue averages 1/3 the shots JJ does.

[mrhonline]

I went and looked for myself about the Denver game:

PG minutes:

A. Ivey 18 mpg (-5)

B. Lue 27 mpg (-3)

Looks like Ivey played nearly as well as Lue. Why not give him some of Lue's minutes for defensive purposes? And why not give Salim some of Lue's minutes when he's hot?

And I agree that JJ is not a PG. I was willing to give him a chance to prove it, but I've abandoned that ship weeks ago...

[exodus]

The ivey/Lue combo should be situational I agree. Some pg's are too much for Lue to handle defensively (Marbury, Francis) and it would be better for Ivey to be in.

Neither is a long term starter but they are the best we have. I do think the offense should start clicking with regularity before long.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'm almost convinced that exodus is related to Lue, because there should not be this much discussion over a guy that even he admits would be a backup PG, if we had a decent one to run the team.

I definitely want to see more Ivey on the court for one simple reason . . Ivey is much more aggressive on offense, that Lue.

People forget that Ivey was actually one of the guards playing alongside T.J. Ford while at Texas. So Ivey is more of a natural scorer, than a PG.

On a team that struggles to score points because they settle for way too many jumpers, it's nice to see a guy like Ivey, who can take his man off the dribble and go to the hole and score. While Lue can do that on occasion, he goes to the hole way too weak at times, which is why his shot gets blocked on occasion. Lue isn't a finisher when he goes to the hole, unlike Ivey.

From a PG standpoint, Lue is better than Ivey. But on the Hawks, we need a guy alongside JJ who can get his offense as well, not just when his jumper is on.

Lue definitely gets his props from last game though. Anybody knocking the kid from last night, is just a Lue-hater.

If the coaching staff still refuses to give Salim 30 minutes a game, the least they can do is split the minutes evenly between Ivey, Lue, and Stoudamire . . and play the guy who is playing the best in the 4th quarter.

[exodus]

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I definitely want to see more Ivey on the court for one simple reason . . Ivey is much more aggressive on offense, that Lue.

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You realize that most of the people here have been dogging Lue because he looks to shoot too much and you are criticizing him for not shooting enough.

I just don't like him being a scapegoat for the teams failures. Just because he isn't a young player with "upside" people are dumping on him. They would rather live in the fantasy world where Salim magically becomes a pg or whatever the case may be.

Actually I didn't know much about Lue when he came here. I remember him from LA but that's all. When he first started playing here he was very inconsistent, play really well one game and sorry the next. Then he started playing well consistently and I started thinking "contract year" but wasn't complaining.

However he took it to another level whenever the games were close and I realized that he really wanted to win. For a journeyman playing on a lousy team I was very impressed by this. Play like that comes only from a professional. I quote the 3 games they won but he also had big games in near misses.

Last game was a perfect example. He shot horribly the last two games after his short layoff, going 1 for 13. He started off badly again missing his first few shots. They did a close up of him clapping his hands an cussing in disgust. He could have easily had another bad game but pulled it together.

Back in the 90s one of my favorite Hawks was Grant Long. He always played hard and was the consumate professional. No way would he let someone shoot a layup in his face like harrington does. Long would drill them and force them to the line. he wasn't the most talented but he made the most of his abilities. A true professional.

Steve Smith used those words to describe Lue last night, true professional. he didn't sulk after being benched. All a guy can do is play to the best of his ability. If all the Hawks do that they will become a good team before long. That is why I pull for Lue.

And no we are not related.

[unknownjdb]

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Hi. I've found a nice webpage for you to read:

The Legend of the "Ad Hominem"

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Dude, you're sort of scary...

[mrhonline]

Thanks!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I think most criticize Lue for his basketball IQ, rather than him taking a bunch of shots. There is a difference in when to shoot, and when not to shoot.

Like I've said before, Lue is a Troy Hudson-like PG, in the fact that he's much more effective when he's looking for his own offense. If he's on, then he'll also look for others. If he's off, his entire game suffers.

I just don't want Lue just out there dribbling the ball up the court, and not being a part of the offense. I'd much rather him take an open 21 footer, than to dribble 10 seconds off the clock and not do anything productive with the ball.

You know he's not going to give you anything defensively, so he must be some sort of offensive threat, and not just a caretaker of the ball.