KB21 & Josh Smith as the Hawk's next Sg

[Guest Walter]

Re: Josh Smith... [Re: smithrules]

#67050 - 12/19/04 02:45 PM Edit Reply Quote

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Everyone wants this kid to become a small forward or a power foward, but I still see a kid that has untapped skills and will make a fabulous shooting guard in the future. His skill level combined with his size will make him unstoppable as a shooting guard.

I still believe that Smith and Harrington are the two guys this team will be built around. The task is now to get guys who can play defense as well as give some offense to put around them.

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How Josh went from KB's Sg prospect to a Pf alongside an undersized center no less is just inane. It's not like Josh has developed a post move in that time. Please.

W

[pathway23]

Its an old quote , and last season Josh Smith did play some SG for the Hawks. The kid is very versatile, its a good thing, not a bad thing. I think his game has evolved into more of a 3/4 game and still can evolve into primarily a 4. But the versatility he and Marvin both have to play the 3/4 is fine.

[Weez]

good points (walt), but the defense is proper too, especially when given what the team had in terms of sg at that time.

regardless, retrations of previous standpoints are proving to be more and more valuable on this board...

[Guest Walter]

Old quote or not, nothing has changed. I would appreciate KB's response also.

The fact is it is not anything about JS's play or the prospect of a dominate 2-way center in this draft that possibly justify a two, Sf starting linuep. JS play would suggest the opposite, he's a Sf, PERIOD! The ONLY reasons anyone could suggest the idea of two, undersized adjacent interior players with Sf and hybrid center skill sets playing Pf and C for a team is a good, desirable thing (that all teams should strive for) is if:

1) they desire above all else to see our current situation as a good thing

or (like KB)

2) they want to hold MW's jock strap

I can't speak to the later as they are already lost. To the former, our current situation can be a good thing without forcing ourselves into a handicapped lineup. We have positional redundancy. We can trade away selected current assets to meet positional and skill set needs without creating a hole to fill one. This IS a good thing and we need to do it as this is the last offseason we have to build a winner or else watch ourselves lose some of our existing young talent come contract negotiations.

Now onto Pathway's response.

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The kid is very versatile, its a good thing, not a bad thing. I think his game has evolved into more of a 3/4 game and still can evolve into primarily a 4. But the versatility he and Marvin both have to play the 3/4 is fine.

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Pathway can't cite one actual bit of evidence as to why he thinks JS's game has "evolved" into a 3/4. Fact is he's been a 3 ALL ALONG. People here saw him as a 2 last year because of Childress and Childress' good play at the 3. People here see him as a 4 this year because of the wrong or otherwise lame reasons not related to JS play and game I cited above. WHEN are we going to see JS for what he is and NOT for what the players around him make us need him to be?!? That is the question nobody seems able to give an answer to. If it weren't for Josh Childress or MW, and on occasion whatever twisted agenda some seem to have, Josh Smith would have always been a 3 in our minds just like he has always been one on the court.

W

[KB21]

Yeah. That was before Joe Johnson as well. Josh Smith could play that position if he concentrated on it. That's the plus of getting guys who are as versatile as Josh and Marvin. They can play several positions.

[Guest Walter]

It's one thing to be versatile size-wize. It's another to be versatile skill-wise. Last year you commented upon Smith's skill set possibilities to play the Sg spot and in other posts his size advantage at the 2. Unfortunately, he would have neither the size advantage OR the skill set to play the Pf position. In short, NO ADVANTAGE! On top of that you want to pair him with a Pf AT BEST Pf/C hybrid creating an already handicapped frontline? Why? Because of your lust over MW and your staking your claim to his greatness.

Honestly, KB I'm fine with you continuing to believe MW is all that, just don't d@mn the team to a nugget frontline when we need at least one full-sized chicken strip manning the paint! If you continue to think MW is so great then suggest we keep him as our Sf and trade JS for a similar talent/prospect at a position of need. KB, you won't do that because despite your weird loyalties to MW you don't believe MW will be better than JS at Sf. ADMIT IT KB!!! That we agree with, just you are so loyal to MW you would d@mn the team to the shortest frontline in the NBA to keep him.

Yes, THE SECOND SHORTEST AND SMALLEST FRONTLINE IN THE NBA! It's not like Pheonix didn't try to get a bigger lineup or that injuries haven't necessitated they go even smaller, but they have an MVP at Pg and a unique coach that can coach to his player's strengths and not their weaknesses (see Tim Thomas, sudden 20 PPG scorer for the Suns).

We have NONE OF THAT and the second shortest and smallest frontline in the NBA is what you are suggesting KB! Nevermind that one of them wouldn't have a single GD post move, they would comprise THE SECOND SHORTEST AND SMALLEST FRONTLINE IN THE NBA. Our current front line is even too small, yet it nearly dwarfs your prospected one. Za Za is 1" and at least 20 lbs heavier than Aldridge at the same age and Al is 20 lbs heavier with infinitly many more post moves than JS. And that's assuming we could even draft Aldridge. What if he's gone by our selection? WHAT THEN?!? Then we settle for the SHORTEST FRONTLINE IN THE NBA according to you as you suggest we get Thomas next. Tyrus Thomas and Josh Smith as our C and Pf. JOKE! Uber athletes doomed to have their weakside athleticism negated while they are on the backs of 7'ers.

KB, you're lame and lost. I sincerely hope someone in our front office sees where we appear to be heading in our most important offseason in the past 10 years. A flawed, Frankenstein, handicapped team. Too short and lacking necessary skills to compete, especially in the playoffs. WE must make serious changes NOW or be stuck with such a team during our young talent negotiations. We'll lose. TEAM first.

W

[Guest Walter]

aside from JS himself.

You've done that too him THREE TIMES NOW, KB. First, you saw the improved play of Childress when he was at the 3 and liked JS at the 2. Now, you claim JJ pushed JS to the 3 (I assume, or did JS make a 2 position jump this offseason from the 2 to the 4?). Then, with your MW love, you project JS as a Pf. ALL BASED UPON EVERYBODY B-U-T JOSH SMITH. Is that not f-ed up! If we draft Tyrus Thomas, perhaps Josh Smith will become a center if Tyrus looks better at Pf. Shameful.

Fact is ONLY ONE player justifies a "change" of position for JS and that is JJ, because he is already great, not some lesser than JS prospect. Of course, JS was a Sf prospect all along so JJ coming in as a 2 (not 1 as you projected) was fine.

I post again...

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Some people here saw JS as a 2 last year because of Childress and Childress' good play at the 3. People here see JS as a 4 this year because of the wrong or otherwise lame reasons not related to JS play and game I cited above.

WHEN are we going to see JS for what he is and NOT for what the players around him make us need him to be?!?

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Either embrace JS for what he is, potentially a great Sf, or trade him and get his worth as a Sf in return. Don't d@mn him to lesser, AT BEST mediocrity at the Pf position. That's my take, I just assume trade the lesser one of our Sfs to fill many other positional and skill set needs and that lesser player is MW.

W

[Diesel]

Our players skillset should determine what position they play... Not the next hole.

I guess if we get Rudy Gay... He can be our Center of the future.

[Buzzard]

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Our players skillset should determine what position they play... Not the next hole.

I guess if we get Rudy Gay... He can be our Center of the future.

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Hmm I just cannot help but disagree with you on skillset determining position. Coach and style of play determine that now and you just need to get your head out of the 50's, 60's, and 70's.

PF's all over the league are playing center and SF now when needed. I mean, what is Boris Diaw? You really beleive he is a prototypical center or PF? Please...Lamar Odum has played SG, SF, PF, and Point Forward during his career (played them all very well). KG gets almost 6 assist a game and can play SF, PF, C, or Point Forward...Amare plays center all the time, Boris plays SG, SF,PF, and center. Marion plays SF and PF....Dirk could easily be a SF in a big lineup...

This trend started with Magic playing center 30 years ago . Pipen and Jordan use to bring the ball up for Chicago all the time. Barkley would play SF or PF depending on who was in the lineup. Better athletes with more versatile skill sets equal more versatile lineups.

There are PG's in the league now that are better rebounders than a lot of SF's. There are eqally as many SG's who are getting more assist than PG'S.

It would not suprise me one bit to see JJ, Chillz, Smoove, Marvin on the court a lot next year at the same time. Just insert PG to go small or insert PF/C to go big.

I am old as well Diesel; but times are changing. We have to accept them or we get pushed aside as dinasours. Time to move on and enjoy the game as it is being played now. I certainly am looking forward to this team we have now for many seasons to come.

[gsuteke]

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Re: Josh Smith... [Re: smithrules]

#67050 - 12/19/04 02:45 PM Edit Reply Quote

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Everyone wants this kid to become a small forward or a power foward, but I still see a kid that has untapped skills and will make a fabulous shooting guard in the future. His skill level combined with his size will make him unstoppable as a shooting guard.

I still believe that Smith and Harrington are the two guys this team will be built around. The task is now to get guys who can play defense as well as give some offense to put around them.

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i'm going to get sick next year when the Hawks actually have a chance to win some games when Smoove keeps chucking up 3s. i think it's dumb, dumb, and dumb. did i mention him shooting threes is dumb?

How Josh went from KB's Sg prospect to a Pf alongside an undersized center no less is just inane. It's not like Josh has developed a post move in that time. Please.

W

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[TheDude]

congratulations Walter on being able to go look specifically for someone's opinion on something just because they disagreed with you on another subject.

[Diesel]

Please continue to help me make my point Buzzard...

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Lamar Odum has played SG, SF, PF, and Point Forward during his career (played them all very well). KG gets almost 6 assist a game and can play SF, PF, C, or Point Forward.

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Lamar Odom is 6'10. If we were ignoring skill set, he would be a Pf and a Pf only.

KG is 7'0. If we were ignoring skill set, he would be either a Pf or a C.

The whole point of the lesson is that somebody took into consideration that these big guys were talented enough with their dribble and with their style and with their mentality to play these other positions proficiently.

Lamar Odom played in Rhode Island and he had Point Foward skills. He didn't have to come to the pros to develop them.

Imagine.

What if Odom couldn't dribble and pass very well when he became a pro...

Do you think somebody would have said.... We lack a PG on this team. Let's make the new 6'10 guy our new PG. I know he doesn't dribble so well and I know that he turns the ball over a lot... But We have a hole at PG and we need to plug it with somebody talented.

That's exactly what it sounds like when you guys say that JSmoove is a Pf.

KB at least has come out and says that he doesn't consider skillset when he thinks of the best place for Smoove to play.

Now you come out and say that Skillset shouldn't be the determining factor.

May goodness... That's not smart at all.

[Iman]

Geez guys, pretty much everyone agrees that we have a ton of players best suited to play SF. None of the top3 picks last year would make us much better or have much more trade value than Marvin. Most everyone was worried that Paul could be shutdown by big points, it may still prove to be true under playoff conditions but probably not and he has tons of trade value so that was a bad draft pick. Otherwise, BK is trying and has probably done what many other good GMs would have done. So far lotsa tweeners is what we have and probably what we'll get outta this draft. Marvin and JSmoove have tons of physical maturation to go thru still but even with that, probably both will never be above average at any position other than SF. Hopefully we'll get more of a PF tweener outta the draft. Practically all will be tradeable if the right deal comes along. The deal probably wont come along so us optimists just have to dream that Marvin and JSmoove together will be fine. Let us dream and let us forget Paul, btw I'm glad NOK is falling.

[Buzzard]

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Now you come out and say that Skillset shouldn't be the determining factor.

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You really missed the whole point...multitalented players (that's what we have in Chillz,Marvin, and Smoove) can play multiple positions. Of course you went off the deep end with Odum playing PG but that's to be expected. Drama Queen not Diesel really should be your board name

If you look at Marvin and Smoove strickly on what they do best right now its a wash. Smoove shoots the better three right now, passes better, and blocks more shots, Marvin plays inside better and hits the boards harder.

Are you trying to tell me Smoove and Marvin cannot learn how to box out, shoot a better jumper, pass out of double teams, develope a post up move, and dribble a basketball better?

Smoove and Marvin each need to work on some of the above mentioned skills. I don't care what position they play, they both need to work on them. Maybe you think they should not have to; which is ridiculous considering the money we pay them and their ages.

What is it about their games that make you think this it. This is the best we are going to get from Marvin and Smoove?

We drafted them as 18 and 19 year olds knowing fully that time to develope is what they were going to need. Again Diesel, just relax...all three of them will get better. Even Chad Ford is starting to see that Marvin and Smoove can be our starting forwards of the future....why can't you?

[Diesel]

another attempt to evade the truth.

Neither Smoove nor Marvin has essential PF skills.

Your hoping that they would just develop these skills is just as hopeful as me hoping that one day I will learn to play the piano by ear.

The major problem is that we don't have the time it would require for them to become just average PFs in this league. And we are surrounded by MONSTERS. DHoward. Bosh. Okafor. JO. These are just some of the power fowards that we have to contend with...

And you want to do it with a guy who's mentality and skillset is not that of a PF. That's the road to disaster.

The easier path is to let them play thier positions and to find a player who doesn't have to develop into the mentality and skillset of a PF.

Again. it was evident by their skillset that KG and Odom were already Point Forward material. The Skillset determined where they should play. JSmoove's skill set is screaming Sf and a bunch of you guys want to make him a Sf. That's not smart.

[Guest Walter]

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congratulations Walter on being able to go look specifically for someone's opinion on something just because they disagreed with you on another subject.

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Unsure about the tone of your post, however, KB's position on Josh's Smith's skill set and best position being a Sg then and his insistance that he be a Pf now are so utterly inconsistent they make his justification for his position if not his position itself ludicrious.

W

[Diesel]

That's what happens when you base position on availability and not on skillset.

[TheDude]

there are a lot of people who think smith can be a pf...

to me it's not about who is small forward and who is power forward..to me it's Josh Smith and Marvin Williams CAN (and most likely will) be a dominating forward duo...who plays power at one point and who plays small at another point won't make a difference, they are both flexible.

who cares what the Hawks site lists Smith as or what the position column says on fantasy basketball...

can Smith and Williams co-exist as our forwards of the future (interchanging)..i say yes....and i don't really see why this is such a big deal on this site.

[exodus]

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and i don't really see why this is such a big deal on this site.

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It gives Diesel and Walter another reason to bash the Marvin pick.