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You know why we don't have a post scorer?

Johnnybravo4

By Johnnybravo4
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Johnnybravo4 Newbie

Johnnybravo4

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Because we rarely run post plays. Our post plays are mostly limited to some with Zaza and some with JJ on mismatches.

But if you watch the games when we put Shelden on the post, he actually shows some good moves. He did a nice turn around jumper against NJ the other day.

When we put Josh on the post he usually beats his man and either gets a foul or an and one opportunity

We matched up Marvin in the post against VC the other day and he hit a good turnaround jumpshot, which was negated by a foul call on the floor.

We forget that Chills played PF in college and has some excellent post moves. But since he is so slight, we don't think of him as a post player. BUT. Since he plays point foward, he is usually matched up against PG or 2's which with his length he should be able to post up.

Boris Diaw kills players in the post in Phoenix, but we never thought of posting him up here.

ITS ALL COACHING. For all we know we have a team full of Karl Malones and David Robinsons.

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CBAreject Newbie

CBAreject

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ITS ALL COACHING. For all we know we have a team full of Karl Malones and David Robinsons.

I can't decide between "absurd" and "ludicrous". Which adjective is best for this ridiculous statement?

This argument, though flawed is an interesting one. JB argues that our team doesn't score in the post because we don't run post plays. A more sensible person might argue that we don't run post plays because we don't have post scorers.

He does have a point that Shelden does have *some* post moves. He's a well-schooled basketball player. I don't think he's Karl Malone (or even close), but perhaps he could score more if plays were run for him. I think one of the main problems is that he's just not on the floor very much. Also, he hasn't shot for a very high percentage, so that casts doubt on his ability to be a go-to post option. Anecdotally, I've seen him try to make a move and get tied up or trapped a few times.

I guess if this whole thing is an attempt to say we have all the pieces we need (except maybe PG), I would have to disagree. If it's an attempt to say we could squeeze a few more wins out of these boys, I would agree. I'm just not sure that's in our best interest, as you all know.

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TheNorthCydeRises Grand Master

TheNorthCydeRises

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ITS ALL COACHING. For all we know we have a team full of Karl Malones and David Robinsons.

I can't decide between "absurd" and "ludicrous". Which adjective is best for this ridiculous statement?

This argument, though flawed is an interesting one. JB argues that our team doesn't score in the post because we don't run post plays. A more sensible person might argue that we don't run post plays because we don't have post scorers.

He does have a point that Shelden does have *some* post moves. He's a well-schooled basketball player. I don't think he's Karl Malone (or even close), but perhaps he could score more if plays were run for him. I think one of the main problems is that he's just not on the floor very much. Also, he hasn't shot for a very high percentage, so that casts doubt on his ability to be a go-to post option. Anecdotally, I've seen him try to make a move and get tied up or trapped a few times.

I guess if this whole thing is an attempt to say we have all the pieces we need (except maybe PG), I would have to disagree. If it's an attempt to say we could squeeze a few more wins out of these boys, I would agree. I'm just not sure that's in our best interest, as you all know.

Jesus must be coming today, because I actually agree with CBA on this one.

The whole "post scoring" thing is absent for the same reason why this team takes a lot of jumpers instead of penetrating. We don't have guys that do either of those things well. What they do well, or better than anything else, is shoot open jumpers. The key is to take "good" open jumpers instead of forced ones.

But back to the post scoring thing. ZaZa isn't a post scorer per ce. What ZaZa does, is take his man from the high post and tries to beat him off the dribble with a "crafty" move. He either beats his man, gets his shot blocked, or turns it over. What you NEVER see, is ZaZa sealing someone off in the low block, and getting a dunk or shooting a hook shot over his man.

I think Shelden could be a post scorer from the simple fact that he MIGHT could draw fouls from his man. But as far as his effectiveness as a low block scorer, his skills are limited at this time. But he is smart enough to draw fouls.

Other than that . . we have no post scorers . . unless you count when JJ posts up his man. In fact, JJ is probably our best low post scorer, from an efficiency standpoint. Smoove can't do it with regularity yet. Nor can Marvin. Lorenzen has never done it.

It doesn't make any sense to complain about something, that you can't do efficiently.

And the same goes to people "driving to the hole". We just don't have guys who are naturally comfortable with going to the basket.

- JJ doesn't like to do it, and when he does, he'd rather shoot the floater in the lane than to draw contact and get to the line.

- Smoove is trying to do it more, especially when he plays the 4, but he has major trouble finishing his drives or hanging onto the ball.

- Marvin tried to do it when he first came back, but he's obviously much more comfortable as a jumpshooter and not as a slasher.

- Chill does it a lot, and may be the best on the team at it.

- Speedy could do it, if healthy . . but since he isn't, he penetrates looking to pass, instead of to score

- Lue would always rather shoot the jumper.

- ZaZa is the guy that always goes hard to the hole, looking for contact. But if he doesn't get the contact, it usually results in a turnover.

LOL . . we're a jumpshooting team. I've learned to live with that. If we move the ball around and get guys open looks, it's a philosophy that can definitely work. But when you shoot jumpers, you better hit in the high-40% range, if you want to win. That, or hit 7 or more threes.

I'm more worried about what this team is incapable of doing defensively, than what they can't do offensively.
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Johnnybravo4 Newbie

Johnnybravo4

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We're a jumpshooting team because our plays call for jumpshots. Think about it. We run JJ through screens until about 8 seconds on the clock. then JJ goes one on one and if he doesn't have a shot he passes it to the nearest open player....for a jump shot. Very rarely do we set up Shelden or Smoove or Childress on the post. We never put Diaw on the post, who obviously has some post skills.

You don't develop post skills until you actually run post plays. I keep hearing on how Smoove works with Coach Drew every day, so when are we going to see the fruits?

Childress was a four year player at the 4 in college. So was Shelden. Do you mean to tell me that these players never developed post moves at Stanford and Duke?

Woodson just can't coach. He can't put a lineup together. He can't call an adequate play at crunch time. He stinks

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bfwolf Newbie

bfwolf

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ITS ALL COACHING. For all we know we have a team full of Karl Malones and David Robinsons.

I can't decide between "absurd" and "ludicrous". Which adjective is best for this ridiculous statement?

This argument, though flawed is an interesting one. JB argues that our team doesn't score in the post because we don't run post plays. A more sensible person might argue that we don't run post plays because we don't have post scorers.

He does have a point that Shelden does have *some* post moves. He's a well-schooled basketball player. I don't think he's Karl Malone (or even close), but perhaps he could score more if plays were run for him. I think one of the main problems is that he's just not on the floor very much. Also, he hasn't shot for a very high percentage, so that casts doubt on his ability to be a go-to post option. Anecdotally, I've seen him try to make a move and get tied up or trapped a few times.

I guess if this whole thing is an attempt to say we have all the pieces we need (except maybe PG), I would have to disagree. If it's an attempt to say we could squeeze a few more wins out of these boys, I would agree. I'm just not sure that's in our best interest, as you all know.

Jesus must be coming today, because I actually agree with CBA on this one.

The whole "post scoring" thing is absent for the same reason why this team takes a lot of jumpers instead of penetrating. We don't have guys that do either of those things well. What they do well, or better than anything else, is shoot open jumpers. The key is to take "good" open jumpers instead of forced ones.

But back to the post scoring thing. ZaZa isn't a post scorer per ce. What ZaZa does, is take his man from the high post and tries to beat him off the dribble with a "crafty" move. He either beats his man, gets his shot blocked, or turns it over. What you NEVER see, is ZaZa sealing someone off in the low block, and getting a dunk or shooting a hook shot over his man.

I think Shelden could be a post scorer from the simple fact that he MIGHT could draw fouls from his man. But as far as his effectiveness as a low block scorer, his skills are limited at this time. But he is smart enough to draw fouls.

Other than that . . we have no post scorers . . unless you count when JJ posts up his man. In fact, JJ is probably our best low post scorer, from an efficiency standpoint. Smoove can't do it with regularity yet. Nor can Marvin. Lorenzen has never done it.

It doesn't make any sense to complain about something, that you can't do efficiently.

And the same goes to people "driving to the hole". We just don't have guys who are naturally comfortable with going to the basket.

- JJ doesn't like to do it, and when he does, he'd rather shoot the floater in the lane than to draw contact and get to the line.

- Smoove is trying to do it more, especially when he plays the 4, but he has major trouble finishing his drives or hanging onto the ball.

- Marvin tried to do it when he first came back, but he's obviously much more comfortable as a jumpshooter and not as a slasher.

- Chill does it a lot, and may be the best on the team at it.

- Speedy could do it, if healthy . . but since he isn't, he penetrates looking to pass, instead of to score

- Lue would always rather shoot the jumper.

- ZaZa is the guy that always goes hard to the hole, looking for contact. But if he doesn't get the contact, it usually results in a turnover.

LOL . . we're a jumpshooting team. I've learned to live with that. If we move the ball around and get guys open looks, it's a philosophy that can definitely work. But when you shoot jumpers, you better hit in the high-40% range, if you want to win. That, or hit 7 or more threes.

I'm more worried about what this team is incapable of doing defensively, than what they can't do offensively.

I agree with you entirely, Northcyde, from a short-term perspective. JJ is our best post player by far, but he's good at just about everything. Childress is the best at taking it to the hole, although JJ is pretty good, too (again, he's good at just about everything), and J Smith is OK at it. But we have nobody who is GREAT at posting up or taking the ball to the whole, and most of our team is actually quite poor at those skills. So in the short term, it makes sense for us to shoot a lot of jumpers. HOWEVER:

1) I think we'd get a lot more open jumpers if Childress and Smith look to take the ball to the hoop more often. They're both good enough at it to demand defensive help, then we kick it around the perimeter for the open shot.

2) In the long term, we'll never be a successful team shooting J's all game long. We need guys to really develop their post and driving skills so we have some other options. Or, alternatively (and preferably), we need to change our style so that we're an up-tempo team that doesn't need to rely on post moves or beating your man off the dribble to be effective.
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CBAreject Newbie

CBAreject

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Childress was a four year player at the 4 in college. So was Shelden. Do you mean to tell me that these players never developed post moves at Stanford and Duke?

Childress was a three year player at the 3. Justin Davis was the powerforward who played beside him. Childress scored mostly on jumpers, drives, and in transition.

Just keep saying stuff and hope that some of it is right.

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bfwolf Newbie

bfwolf

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We're a jumpshooting team because our plays call for jumpshots. Think about it. We run JJ through screens until about 8 seconds on the clock. then JJ goes one on one and if he doesn't have a shot he passes it to the nearest open player....for a jump shot. Very rarely do we set up Shelden or Smoove or Childress on the post. We never put Diaw on the post, who obviously has some post skills.

You don't develop post skills until you actually run post plays. I keep hearing on how Smoove works with Coach Drew every day, so when are we going to see the fruits?

Childress was a four year player at the 4 in college. So was Shelden. Do you mean to tell me that these players never developed post moves at Stanford and Duke?

Woodson just can't coach. He can't put a lineup together. He can't call an adequate play at crunch time. He stinks

We call plays designed to get J's because that's the strongest part of our game. The time for Josh Smith to practice his post game is in practice, not in the game. I'm not saying Woodson doesn't know how to coach. I agree with that. But in this situation, he's right to not try and run low-post plays through players that don't have low post skills.

Now, I believe that we would get more open J's if the players on our team with the most take-it-to-the-hole skills did more of that and then kicked it out. I don't, however, believe we'd get more open J's by posting any of our players up. None of our players demand a double team on the low post. If they're not going to score on the low post, and they're not going to demand a double, what's the point of doing it?

Saw Childress play quite a bit in college. I don't recall him ever doing much posting up. Stanford liked to run a fair bit which took advantage of his natural finishing skills, and they also ran lots of off the ball screens to get him open down low where he'd pick up easy buckets. And he did plenty of taking his man off the dribble...as you might imagine, he was quite a handful in college with those long arms and ability to finish.

From what I've seen in Shelden, he does have some post moves, BUT his lack of athleticism makes it tough for him in the NBA against taller guys who get up higher in the air than him.

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bfwolf Newbie

bfwolf

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My point is this. We have no idea how good of a post scoring team we have because we don't run post plays. That is unless you have 100% faith in Woody's ability to maximize the talents of this team. Which I don't.

I have seen most Hawks players receive the ball on the post, even if this isn't our primary (or secondary) offense. I haven't been wowed by what any of them did with it.

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MoonKnight Newbie

MoonKnight

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JJ is a very good back to the basket post player against most guards but we have extreme difficulty feeding the post with entry passes. There have been many times during the season when JJ posts up another guard and the rest of the squad either cannot make an entry pass or goes away from the block. On one or two occasions JJ was effective posting up Kobe the other night but we did not return to that play. Shelden might also be a decent offensive post player but he does not get the rock in a position to demonstrate what he can do. Feeding the post is an example of a fundamental skill this team (and Woody) is lacking regardless of the individual skills of the players.

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Johnnybravo4 Newbie

Johnnybravo4

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Thank you Marc Spector. That is exactly my point. Shelden Williams got his jersey retired at DUKE. That don't hand those out with your schedule at freshman orientation. And I don't think that anyone here would argue that Coach K is a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better coach than Woody is. It may be just me but I am assuming that he learned some post skills.

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Johnnybravo4 Newbie

Johnnybravo4

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Shelden's got potential in the post. There's no reason we shouldn't give him the ball there a few times a game when he can draw a favorable matchup. But as a general rule, the Hawks don't post-up much for good reason--we're not good at it.

My question is Is how do you know? We only post up our young players once every 5 games, and that is only when we are getting blown out and are in garbage time.

People leave the Hawks and all of a sudden become studs. Hell I even like how Mikki Moore looked the other night.

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