Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was.

[Guest Walter]

This is in response to the thread related to who Horford most reminds people of and the individual who wanted to "feel better" about the Horford selection.

Tell me who these quotes are discussing:

KB

Quote:

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I think he's going to be more productive than a lot of people think. Offensively, he could very well be similar to

Carlos Boozer

. Defensively, he could come close to being

Elton Brand

, though I think

Emeka Okafor

is a more likely comparison. (His) downside may be Brian Grant.

---

link

Traceman

Quote:

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"I think (he) will actually be a better defending

Carlos Boozer

and that is pretty good if you ask me."

---

Busboyisback

Quote:

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"(He) is

Carlos Boozer

with defense."

---

link

Sound familiar? Boozer, Brand, Okafor? Familiar? It's some of the same people Horford is compared with. But this isn't Horford. This was SW last year! But, of course, Horford isn't like Shelden Williams AT ALL (the nerve). Horford is only like the players LIKE Shelden Williams. Don't forget that negligable distinction!

Moreover, it's not like these pro-SW people were right about SW. Look at Roy in terms of comparision. Then look at these comparisons. Both were 100% off. Roy won R.O.Y. and SW looked more like Brian Grant NOW than these other guys.

Another example of poor player evaluation as it relates to SW?

Busboyisback

Quote:

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"He will be a much better defender than Charles Oakley. (His) will average a shade under 2 BPG next year just watch."

---

Now, when you see somebody 400% off in terms of how many BPG a WELL KNOWN player like SW will get in the NBA as a rookie (0.5 BPG), should that instill confidence in their player evaluation skills, particularly regarding players that "aren't like Shelden Williams but are Like players LIKE Shelden Williams"?

Seriously, Busboyisback even contradicts himself about this very topic.

Quote:

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It's no coincidence that Boozer, Brand, and Hill the three players from Duke who actually made it,...all have athleticism.

---

link

Wait, I thought Shelden Williams was "Carlos Boozer with defense"? You can't say on one hand he's better than Boozer ("with defense") and in the other the reason he's failed to be as good without contradicting yourself. And are you REALLY suggesting that the reason that Boozer "made it" in the NBA was "athleticism"? Boozer's advantage is "athleticism"?!? I mean. Come on!!! Wrong on how good SW would be. Wrong on why SW wasn't as good as you projected (Boozer's athleticism?). ALL wrong about Horford as a great NBA center prospect.

You cannot trust this kind of "repeat-after-me", self-contradictory, proven wrong, player evaluation that relies upon belated negligable distinctions. If you do, then you are the next Jay Bilas. Wait, not the next Jay Bilas. The guy LIKE the guy that is the next Jay Bilas but definitely NOT the next Jay Bilas...that would be wrong.

W

[Seano]

Oh who cares, Walter? I mean seriously, do you *really* care about this? These are nothing more nor less than fan opinions posted on an internet message board. So whooopity-doo, big freaking deal.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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Oh who cares, Walter? I mean seriously, do you *really* care about this? These are nothing more nor less than fan opinions posted on an internet message board. So whooopity-doo, big freaking deal.

---

...your comment applies just as much to itself as any other "fan opinon on an internet message board"? Your comment is just another example of ad hominem. Alot of people choose to use this towards me. It's not an argument and is a clear indication of a lack of one on your part.

I do care about when Horford is compared to the same players as SW, but for some reason cannot be compared to SW.

I do care when the people that support the drafting of Horford saw SW as "Boozer with better defense" and thought SW would block 2 shots per game his rookie year.

That kind of nonsense and inaccuracy about the very topic at hand should undercut just about any pro-Horford argument coming from these people.

That is if reason and rational thinking are your thing and not ad hominem attacks.

W

[Seano]

Uhmmmm, then maybe you need to turn off the PC and get out for awhile then? You seem to invest FAR too much time in these utterly pointless debates. It's summertime. It's beautiful out there. I'd recommend taking a walk, or going for a bike ride personally. You only live once. How much of your life are you going to waste away pounding away at a keyboard, about topics which in the end mean absolutely nothing at all?

[leftwich]

It's impossible to make any definitive statements about who Horford is before he's played in a game.

[Guest GHook4]

Quote:

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Busboyisback

Quote:

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"He will be a much better defender than Charles Oakley. (His) will average a shade under 2 BPG next year just watch."

---

Now, when you see somebody 400% off in terms of how many BPG a WELL KNOWN player like SW will get in the NBA as a rookie (0.5 BPG), should that instill confidence in their player evaluation skills, particularly regarding players that "aren't like Shelden Williams but are Like players LIKE Shelden Williams"?

---

He was actually 1.5 BPG off, which is 300% of .5 BPG. So it's 300%, not 400%.

I'm sure you're wrong somewhere else in there but I've done my part.

[jaywalker72]

I can't remember what I thought about the Hawks taking Shelden other than, "Really? We Promised him?"

I didn't know what to think. I was bummed at all the attention he received throughout the college year, the Landlord and all of that, but I was hopeful that they knew what they were doing when they forsook all for him.

When I saw him here in Orlando, things did not look good. Maybe it was his shoulder, but he did not look anything like a Landlord.

It is interesting to see what people saw in Shelden last season....

[Hatertots]

What exactly about Seano's post do you consider an ad hominem argument, Walter? He basically just said that fan opinions are pretty insubstantial. Nothing about that is a personal attack against you.

And I think it's fair to say that anyone who expected Shelden to come out and play like Brand or Boozer his rookie season set themselves up for disappointment by placing unrealistic expectations on the guy. Considering he played limited minutes and was injured, I think Shelden acquitted himself well.

Regardless, I fail to see how Shelden's (alleged) failures have any direct bearing on Horford. That's akin to saying "People said Vince Carter would be the next MJ, and he's not, therefore Kobe Bryant will also fail to live up to the hype." One factor has zero influence over the other.

Or is what you're saying "These people made homeristic predictions for Shelden and now they're at it again with Al!"? Well, of course, man. We're fans, not GMs, team managers, or beat reporters; part of being a fan is being a homer. This happens for every team. If you check the Portland boards over at realgm, those guys expected Oden, like Moses, to part the Western Conference and carry them to the promised land his first season in the league having never seen the guy play one game. Had they, they would've noticed that he tends to pick up fouls like they're made out of money (they're noticing now, much to their chagrin). But that's the joy of being a fan, objectivity isn't required.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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Uhmmmm, then maybe you need to turn off the PC and get out for awhile then? You seem to invest FAR too much time in these utterly pointless debates. It's summertime. It's beautiful out there. I'd recommend taking a walk, or going for a bike ride personally. You only live once. How much of your life are you going to waste away pounding away at a keyboard, about topics which in the end mean absolutely nothing at all?

---

...to sound like you do.

I fly-fished the N. Mills River the day before and Yellowstone Prong river yesterday and played disc golf today. I camped for 2-3 days in Pathertown last weekend. It appears that your judgement of persons is the only thing worse than Busboy's judgment of players.

And of course, you too pound away at the keyboard. Hmm? Hello pot. What exactly were you doing today before you thought it your place to judge me (inaccurately)?

W

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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He was actually 1.5 BPG off, which is 300% of .5 BPG. So it's 300%, not 400%.

---

400% of 0.5 (0.5 x 4) is 2.0 BPG. I simply went with that figure but 300% WRONG is correct. Does that make you confident in Busboy's player evaluation skills? I mean SW was the most seen, easiest player to predict IMHO. If you're 300% off on him, how much further are you off on other players?

Quote:

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I'm sure you're wrong somewhere else in there but I've done my part.

---

Yes, the part of [censored]. Ghook4, you're better than this. You realize a 300% vs 400% player evaluation miscalculation is aggregious either way and your willingness to point out the minor detail but not the major one indicates a personal bias and not a credible, reasonable position.

W

[TheDude]

Wally, step away from the Candyland board. Pick up your toys and go to bed right now young man. We've told you about going insane in front of company, and here you go with that IHateSheldenButICan'tStopTalkingAboutHim talk. And take your sister Diesel with you too, she's been pulling the hair on that Marvin Williams doll all evening.

[kelston827]

ZING!

Wally and Diesel, one-trick (My Little) Ponies.

[BusBoyIsBack]

I was very surprised when Shelden's defensive skills didn't translate to the NBA.

I remember saying he was in a category with Ralph Sampson and Tim Duncan in points, rebounds, and blocked shots in college basketball history.

But that's the problem

I was using his STATS to say why he would succeed.

The same thing you guys are doing to say that Horford isn't a better prospect.

Shelden had 18 PPG

Shelden averaged 10 RPG

He had 3 BPG 3 years in a row

But those are only numbers

I looked past his ridiculous slow speed. Looked past the fact that the scouting reports say he is robotic in nature despite all the moves in his arsenal offensively.

I remember someone making a big deal out of his 8'8 reach.

Well guess what? You can't look past all those things.

Bottomline is that athleticism and length DO MATTER.

And I probably tried to convince myself that they didn't just because he was our pick. Let's face it we were SCREWED by the age limit and I remember saying that 1000 times.

In the case of Horford, I don't have to convince myself he's a great prospect. All the NBA experts and pro scouts agree.

Nice digging though. Of course you've never said anything contradictory have you?

I'll man up and admit the mistake I made regarding Shelden.

[Seano]

Oh Walter, I have no interest in getting into it with you. You obviously seek internet conflict, which I have no desire in participating in. The Net is something fun and enjoyable for me. But, there are reasons the way you're treated as you are, and the constant conflict. So, you really shouldn't complain about it and say that people are being mean to you, because you bring every bit of that on yourself.

[atlien]

An ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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What exactly about Seano's post do you consider an ad hominem argument, Walter? He basically just said that fan opinions are pretty insubstantial. Nothing about that is a personal attack against you.

---

I believe it was personally motivated but not an ad hominem. I get quite alot of both responses in large part because I take difficult (but accurate) stands.

Quote:

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And I think it's fair to say that anyone who expected Shelden to come out and play like Brand or Boozer his rookie season set themselves up for disappointment by placing unrealistic expectations on the guy. Considering he played limited minutes and was injured, I think Shelden acquitted himself well.

---

Consider Roy won R.O.Y. I'd say BK didn't acquit himself. SW wasn't horrible at some points but at others he absolutely was. You don't draft in a vacuum and outside it the R.O.Y. makes SW's meager end season play uninspiring. I think our drafting Horford demonstrated just how little BK even thinks SW "acquitted himself".

Quote:

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Regardless, I fail to see how Shelden's (alleged) failures have any direct bearing on Horford.

---

Hmm? Pf forced to play center. There's a similarity that indicates a likelihood for similar failure. It happens all across the NBA people. Yes, there are exceptions like Amare, but your don't draft top 3 (or top 5) for exceptions.

However, my point isn't primarily about SW and Horford but the fact that individuals who predicted SW was the next Boozer, also predict Horford will be the next Boozer, AND insist you can't compare SW to Horford.

The whole series of premises just might be the most ridiculously flawed I've seen around here in some time, but more importantly they indicate one should not trust certain individual's ability to player evaluate (KB, Busboy).

Quote:

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Or is what you're saying "These people made homeristic predictions for Shelden and now they're at it again with Al!"? Well, of course, man. We're fans, not GMs, team managers, or beat reporters; part of being a fan is being a homer.

---

Then don't pretend to have credibility. Be a "fan" and if "fan" means feelings over reason, then don't pretend to have credibility. I don't have a problem with being a fan in this sense, but you sacrifice your credibility when you are, particularly to this extent. Say things like, "I hope Horford is great!" or "I'm hoping all the Hawks have career years." We ALL hope that. We're all "fans". We don't all have to have reason center lobotomies to be fans. In fact, I believe an educated, reasoned fan is prefered. Even YOU agree with this. Here is your quote from this very post:

Quote:

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And I think it's fair to say that anyone who expected Shelden to come out and play like Brand or Boozer his rookie season set themselves up for disappointment by placing unrealistic expectations on the guy.

---

I guess you are saying part of a fan is always being a homer AND being dissappointed. I doubt this is all good to you.

Quote:

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This (homerism) happens for every team.

---

It happens, certainly. And people get called out for it.

Quote:

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objectivity isn't required.

---

It is if you put forth a statement like "SW is Boozer with defense" and "SW will block 2.0 BPG as a rookie". Those are statements of judgement. You don't get a free pass because you are a fan, a patriot, a comrade, etc. Do those who say America has the best criminal justice, healthcare, or education system in the world get a free pass because they are "patriots"? It doesn't work that way. You make statements of judgement you better put your credibility and not fan, citizenship, etc. bias first.

W

[TexasPete]

I despised the SW pick with an incredible passion because I felt he was not athletic enough for the league. I figured career role player and you dont use the 5th pick on that.

I'm fine with AH and see few qualities besides the obvious ones. AH has better post moves, is a quicker jumper, is more athletic, runs the floor and fills the lane...and is a great passing big man which SW is certainly not.

They are both PF/C...AH is taller, a legit 6'10 in shoes. If you want to compare all PF/C types then go for it. You will be wrong.

The fact that a few here bit on SW last year has nothing to do with Al Horford. Nice try.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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I was very surprised when Shelden's defensive skills didn't translate to the NBA.

---

So you were wrong about SW and his defensive AND offensive skills (last I looked "Boozer with defense" indicated both offensive and defensive ability).

Quote:

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I was using his STATS to say why he would succeed.

The same thing you guys are doing to say that Horford isn't a better prospect.

---

I would wager that just like with what GSUteke says about SL, that in players that play great in SL may not play great in the NBA, but that players that do NOT play well there will generally not be great NBA players, applies here. Players that have good stats in college MAY not succeed in the NBA but FAR more rarely do players that do NOT have good stats in college go on to succeed in the NBA.

Quote:

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Shelden had 18 PPG

Shelden averaged 10 RPG

He had 3 BPG 3 years in a row

But those are only numbers

---

And reach and height aren't (and neither # is as good as the average NBA starting center much less 3rd pick worthy center).

Quote:

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I looked past his ridiculous slow speed. Looked past the fact that the scouting reports say he is robotic in nature despite all the moves in his arsenal offensively.

---

That's an awful lot to look past. WHAT have you looked past regarding Horford? It would seem one cannot trust your player evaluation based upon your own willingness to "look past" so much.

Quote:

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I remember someone making a big deal out of his 8'8 reach.

---

And rightly so.

Quote:

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Well guess what? You can't look past all those things.

---

But you did. What are you looking past now.

Quote:

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Bottomline is that athleticism and length DO MATTER.

---

Which is precisely why Horford is not a good CENTER prospect. His height and length are less than average for a starting center much less for a top 3 pick worthy starting center! WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO OVERLOOK THESE NUMBERS DESPITE THE "LESSONS" YOU INDICATE YOU HAVE LEARNED ABOUT OVERLOOKING THE NUMBERS RELATED TO SW!

Quote:

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And I probably tried to convince myself that they didn't just because he was our pick. Let's face it we were SCREWED by the age limit and I remember saying that 1000 times.

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Busboy, WHAT ARE YOU OVERLOOKING ABOUT HORFORD?!? You know that you are doing the same thing you did last year with SW, just using a different rationale. Instead of overlooking one thing for SW you are overlooking another thing for Horford (Horford in relation to the CENTER position). You even acknowledge your credibility should be questioned as a "fan" and you fall back on the age limit for what reason I don't know.

Quote:

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In the case of Horford, I don't have to convince myself he's a great prospect. All the NBA experts and pro scouts agree.

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As "they", whoever the hell they are, did with MW, another over-hyped championship winner. Mind you, they weren't considering Horford for the CENTER POSITION! This is an entire cop-out anyhow.

Quote:

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I'll man up and admit the mistake I made regarding Shelden.

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The same mistake you made about Horford...overlooking too much.

W

[kelston827]

Like your credibility and your Sene predictions?

[Guest Walter]