Josh Smith's Natural Position

[Lascar78]

I typed this up as a response to Weez's post here. I figured I might as well make it a new thread rather than derail. Also I figured I'd see where everyone stands on this and why.

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If you don't like JSmoove at the SF...then this team has some soul searching to do.

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Agreed. Which is why I wouldn't have drafted yet another forward. I really hope Horford can be good enough at C even though he's a PF.

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Smoove likes shooting 3's, he appears most comfortable on the wing (offensively anyhow). While I know he's worked with Hakeem this off season (anyone have a link to that btw), but...he plays like a sf, plain and simple...

unless we move towards a PHX style offense (in which case Woody must be jetisoned), smoove is a SF...

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Well, there are two sides to the game.

On Defense, most SF's can get right by him and he still bites on all the fakes. He's still not perfect in the post, but he is 100X times better defending big guys in the post (even taller ones) rather than quick guys on the perimeter, it's not even close. On top of that, the guy is one of the best shot blockers in the entire league, and if you want him to get help blocks (which he excels at), you want him defending a post player, not a guy that draws him out on the perimeter where he can't help. So on defense, you unquestionably want him in the post on offense.

On offense, let's look at what he has:

-Dribbling: His dribble is still absolutely horrendous. Well actually, he's improved a little and we see a crossover now and again, but I'd still say it's bad. It is unquestionably worse than any other starting SF in the league, maybe than any SF in the league period. He masks this flaw well with his long steps and jumping ability that allow him to start his layup from the 3 point line, but his dribble is still a huge flaw, and is moreso that of a PF than of a SF.

-Jump Shooting: Yes, he LIKES shooting. But he is a BAD shooter. This season he made 25% of his threes. That is horrendous. For reference Joe's is 38%, Chills' is 34. His effective FG% on jumpers is 31.6%. For reference Joe's is 49.8%, Marvin's is 41.5%, Chills' is 38%, Zaza's is 34.1%. So as far as shooting goes, he does not have the shooting abilities of a good SF. Woody should have forbidden him for shooting 3s a long time ago. Marvin for instance doesn't have 3 pt range yet but is smart enough to realize it, and steps in for the shot he can make.

-Moves: Well at this point, he basically has none. If he's going to be a SF, he needs a much better handle and some perimeter moves. If he's going to be a PF, he needs better post moves. However, when he's been in the post, we've seen him be very successful. They just didn't go to that much at all. On the perimeter he typically took open jumpers because the defense (rightfully) didn't respect his J, or blew right by his man and was able to get points / FTs inside. As far as his "wishes" go, he worked with Hakeem this summer. That tells me that he might have wisened up, realized that his future is at PF, and gone to sharpen his skills in that direction. I think he is much closer to having good post moves than he is to having good perimeter moves.

-Body: I think his body is clearly that of a PF. He has bulked up fast in the league. He has the strength to handle even big boys, and makes up for any height differentials with his hops. On the other hand he doesn't have the lateral quickness to stay in front of quick SF's, and he's unlikely to get quicker as he gets older. He struggles on SF's like Chill struggles on SG's.

To me, if you look at the actual skills / talent / body, there is no question that he is a PF on both sides of the floor. That doesn't mean he needs to be in the post 24/7. I think that he can be like Shawn Kemp. He can shakes his guy in the post and attacks the rim, but he'll really take his game to another level when his jumper gets more consistent. Not to mention that you draw a big man out with you if you do decide to go to the perimeter.

The only reason to really insist that he's a SF at this time is because of where he's been on the floor to this point: mostly on the perimeter. But to me you shouldn't pick position by where a guy's been, it's where his skills fit. Diaw hadn't played in the post as a center until the suns figured out it might match his skills, and it worked. I think he likes shooting long balls because he's proven himself as a dunker and all big guys want to play like little guys. The problem here is that Woody has let him play there. I think a better coach would have put him in the post more frequently a while ago.

[AtLaS]

Definitely a PF, no question. You've highlighted all the points that I would have made. It's no coincidence he was getting bashed relentlessly in the first 17 games while playing SF, and after he moved to PF broke out and had the best run of his career.

I think he should've always been playing PF. I remember his rookie season he went up against KG and played PF most of the game b/c Harrington was out and Walker had been traded, and he went for like 15/11 with a few blocks, while playing good D on KG the entire game.

He also played PF/C his entire high school career, with the exception of his AAU team.

[MikeWilksBooth]

My vote is PF

[Weez]

I too agree that he 'should' be, or is more suited to being, a pf. Oddly, it's more because of what skills he does NOT have than those that he does...

Dead On: dribbling and moves...his handles bare no resemblance to most sf's in the league. He has few, if any, 'moves' that he can employ to get his own shot on the perimeter...

I won't go on, point by point, because in most every point, I'm in full agreement with you. He's more suited for the PF...but he has to accept that and go forward in that mold (honestly tell me, what does he NOT ahve in his game that Kenyon Martin, the NJ version, did HAVE? very little...should tell him something)...

[Weez]

btw, and yes, a double reply...nice job on creating a new thread with the link to the old one. Classy tactic that I wish more would employ. Kudos...

[atlien]

And I'm not sure what the people who think he's better suited as a SF are thinking... Did yall watch games? Or do you just not know much about basketball?

Why do you think AK-47's production dropped off so much last year?

Same deal with Smoove if he is moved to the 3 full-time.

[Guest GHook4]

PF, no doubt. Can't wait to see what The Dream's taught him.

[Lascar78]

An agreement on HS? I didn't think that was allowed.

I guess your point was that we've been playing him more like a SF which is kind of true. He played the bulk of the season at PF, but more on the perimeter than down low. Hopefully Hakeem got through to him, and Horford should help him out too as far as post scoring goes.

[MikeWilksBooth]

Well Smith showed some nice post moves in a game vs I think Minnesota last year or maybe was Philadelphia at home. I think if he gets stronger he can be very good on the blocks

[Weez]

that's exactly what I was refering too...till now, he has patterned his game in the stlye of a SF, from shot selection, to willingness to bang, to posting up. Until he changes his goals and style of play, he 'wants' to be a SF. He's better suited for the 4 due to the reasons listed (especially his handles and shot creation ability), but he has yet to show that his truly willing to play there...

but hey, he's a basketball player, that's why we drafted him!

[Diesel]

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On Defense, most SF's can get right by him and he still bites on all the fakes. He's still not perfect in the post, but he is 100X times better defending big guys in the post (even taller ones) rather than quick guys on the perimeter, it's not even close. On top of that, the guy is one of the best shot blockers in the entire league, and if you want him to get help blocks (which he excels at), you want him defending a post player, not a guy that draws him out on the perimeter where he can't help. So on defense, you unquestionably want him in the post on offense.

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I would agree and disagree with what you say here. I think it depends on the type of defense you play. Smoove has no post presence whatsoever defensively. He likes to sit back and go for the block. However, the problem is that while he's sitting back, the post player (especially if he is a good one) will score on Smoove everytime. I feel that it's better for Smoove to put him in a Zone, I would say we play a 1-3-1 (matchup)... with Shelden playing the middle... and Smoove on one of the wings. I think him playing the wings will allow him to rover when the ball is not on his side and he can definitely benefit from backside blocked shots.

I agree that his 3pt shooting is a problem. I would nip that right now... unless it improves drastically.

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To me, if you look at the actual skills / talent / body, there is no question that he is a PF on both sides of the floor.

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I disagree here. I like to look at skillset too. He has neither skillset really, however, his inability to score in the post makes it evident that he cannot be a PF. Now maybe Dream will teach him post moves and at such time, I would consider him a pF, but right now, with no skillset whatsoever, it's easier to play him as a Sf.

[Diesel]

I have read too much that Smoove cannot be a Sf because of his ball handling.

UHM..

You know that's kinda a new thing. Sfs historically were not always good ball handlers. The Larry Bird's, Worthy's, Pippen's, Odom's. and KG's have gotten you guys Spoiled. Really the Small forward was a finisher and a wing player. Maybe 2 steps off the dribble and finish but not a guy you want dribbling all over creation. Every Small forward need not be a Point Forward. I think Smoove dribbles well enough to be a good Sf.

[Lascar78]

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However, the problem is that while he's sitting back, the post player (especially if he is a good one) will score on Smoove everytime.

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A year ago, I would have agreed. But he's improved a lot. He holds his ground and doesn't get bullied anymore. I'd stay he's actually not bad once his man has the ball. I think his big problem is that he doesn't prevent big guys from getting position before they ever get the ball. Hopefully he'll work on it.

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I feel that it's better for Smoove to put him in a Zone, I would say we play a 1-3-1 (matchup)... with Shelden playing the middle... and Smoove on one of the wings. I think him playing the wings will allow him to rover when the ball is not on his side and he can definitely benefit from backside blocked shots.

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Actually I think our team would look great in a zone, and I also think we are built to run. The problem is that doesn't fit our coach at all. Not only is he not good at all, his style doesn't fit our team style at all.

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I disagree here. I like to look at skillset too. He has neither skillset really, however, his inability to score in the post makes it evident that he cannot be a PF. Now maybe Dream will teach him post moves and at such time, I would consider him a pF, but right now, with no skillset whatsoever, it's easier to play him as a Sf.

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Well you have to include both sides of the floor, as well as his body. As we know, he doesn't have moves on the perimeter or inside. The way I look at it is that he is a lot closer to having good post moves than he is to having good perimeter moves. Right now, his contributions in the half-court offense are typically limited to open jumpers and just blowing by his man (sometimes running through him). He looks good because you only remember when the jumpers go in, but I think that as of today he would get a lot more points per posession on the inside. When he was actually down there, we saw the hook, we saw a spin move, etc... he was just virtually never there. It doesn't take much separation for him to be able to take off and attack the rim. Add in an up and under and a fade away and we're in business. You can teach all of that. It'll be really tough to teach a pro baller to dribble well enough to shake NBA caliber SF's if he's still so bad at it after 20 years.

Most importantly, if we agree that he should (eventually) be a PF, then he needs to go there now even if you think he's better at SF right now. You only get better at a particular skillset by trying over and over against other top players. He's not going to improve his post moves by standing on the perimeter.

[Lascar78]

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I have read too much that Smoove cannot be a Sf because of his ball handling.

UHM..

You know that's kinda a new thing. Sfs historically were not always good ball handlers. The Larry Bird's, Worthy's, Pippen's, Odom's. and KG's have gotten you guys Spoiled. Really the Small forward was a finisher and a wing player. Maybe 2 steps off the dribble and finish but not a guy you want dribbling all over creation. Every Small forward need not be a Point Forward. I think Smoove dribbles well enough to be a good Sf.

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Well the point forward differs from other SF's by being a great passer. All good SF's have had a good dribble. I'm not asking him to be Allen Iverson, but the guy couldn't dribble from the halfcourt line to the 3 pt line in the dunk contest. As a SF, you have to have some way to get it done when your man is on you. You can do it by being an outstanding shooter, having a great dribble or having other great moves to get rid of your man, with or without the ball. You don't have to do all of those to perfection, but you need to be pretty good all around at most of them. Smith is below average at all of those qualities. If he could shoot the lights out and moved well without the ball, I could handle subpar dribble. But he doesn't have any of those qualities.

He shoots open jumpers because he is left open, and other than that he attacks the rim if his man gives him a lane, but typically can't create one on his own.

[AnakinJoe]

PF. No doubt about it.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Link

PF

[roezag]

Would the people that say JSmith is a natural PF also consider Marion a natural PF? I'm just curious because I think Marion and Smith are similar and I would consider Marion a natural SF, even though he's been playing the 4 a lot the past few years. I just chalk it up to going with a small lineup as opposed to a traditional one.

[AHF]

Power forward. My thoughts on Smith's skills, body and development are similar to yours. It is nice that he has developed a radically improved jumper but his bread and butter should be taking the ball to the whole and operating near the basket offensively.

[SmooveTheFuture]

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And I'm not sure what the people who think he's better suited as a SF are thinking... Did yall watch games? Or do you just not know much about basketball?

Why do you think AK-47's production dropped off so much last year?

Same deal with Smoove if he is moved to the 3 full-time.

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hmm last time I checked AK47 made the allstar team and numerous all defensive teams playing the SF spot. Anyone who saw Josh Smith go for a career high 32 points vs the Wolves he played pretty much on the wing hitting numerous pull up jumpers and slashing to the basket the way he played was not like a PF but more of SF so people who say he cant play well at SF are fooling themselves watch that game and tell me he cant play SF in this league the guy was 10-10 from the field to start that game all from the Wing. Smith would be our SF right now if he didnt make the horrible drafting of Marvin WIlliams thats all I know. Also I wanna add that Josh Smiths dribbling and jump shot are improving by leaps and bounds every year and I expect to be even better this year if thats the case there is no doubt he could be a very good SF in this league. The people that say Smoove cant play SF then how heck can Marvin do it he is not better then Smoove and people want him as our SF because he has a nice looking jumper.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Well it's at PF that Smoove had his breakout season. You mention him playing on the wing, but it's also him having the mismatch to do so BECAUSE he's playing the 4.

It's much easier for him to take a 4 off the dribble than a 3.

Also defense is what really makes your position. On D, Smoove has a better chance adding strength and working on his footwork in the post than he does defending perimeter players.

It also puts him closer to the basket which will result in more rebounds and more contested shotes