Ref fixing NBA games? Feds investigating...

[exodus]

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You've had the last word on this topic several times now

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And somehow you keep replying. If you keep replying then how am i getting the last word?

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What drives a person to follow another from post to post to doggedly pursue an argument from another thread, and even re-pick it in a completely different one?

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You should ask yourself about that since that is exactly what you did. The fact is you are the one who decided to rehash the topic with me.

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This conduct is childish,

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I agree your conduct is childish, constantly avoiding and dancing around obvious facts just like you are now.

Whenever you don't feel you are winning an argument you change the subject. This post is just another version of your "problem with authority" post. Nothing to do with the subject, just another misdirection attempt.

It is good to see you are holding true to your priciples of not making any personal insults Mr Holierthanthou.

[sturt]

(No retort needed... the record itself is completely adequate. )

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exodus said:

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...you are the one who decided to rehash the topic with me.

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The record shows:

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(exodus

speaking)...Nic was giving credit to BK for not having picked a bust, even though some would disagree. I pointed out that it is much less likely to pick a bust when you have higher picks than any GM in the league. I also pointed out that the guys he has pick haven't done that much.........

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exodus said:

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You've had the last word on this topic several times now

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And somehow you keep replying. If you keep replying then how am i getting the last word?

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The record shows:

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(exodus

speaking)... Nic was giving credit to BK for not having picked a bust, even though some would disagree. I pointed out that it is much less likely to pick a bust when you have higher picks than any GM in the league. I also pointed out that the guys he has pick haven't done that much.

Both of these points are true. There is no gray area at all.

Then you come in with your response to me which, in typical sturt fashion, had absolutely no relevance to my post.

A wise man once said don't start what you can't finish. I see a very predictable pattern in your posts. You make up accusations out of thin air, pretending they are based on facts, but when you get called on it you completely avoid the subject that you brought up in the first place. And you try to hide your avoidance with long winded misdirection posts.

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The record shows _sturt_'s two replies to the topic (of BK's drafts):

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You are NOT that dense.

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Fwiw... if you really think what I wrote and re-wrote, Ex, had "no relevance," you also are reading over things too quickly and failing to see the big picture of things... you're down here whining about a particular weakness in how a single player slings up a shot... I'm addressing the bigger point of how a GM would evaluate his options for a draft, given that player's grade and others.

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The record shows:

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(exodus

speaking)... Bigger is different by definition.

All of your posts are about misdirection. When you don't like an argument you simply change the subject and pretend it has relevance.

BK has had higher picks then any active GM but somehow that fact never shows up in your posts. Why? First of all because it is a fact and you don't like facts. They are harder to manipulate. You are much more comfortable with hypothetical scenarios that you can manipulate to show whatever you want, whether it is relevant or not.

The second reason that you don't mention it is because you are very biased. Therefore any fact that paints BK in a bad light which you aren't able to misdirect you simply ignore.

Like Childress' shot. It is a fact that his low release hinders his game. it is also a fact that very few wing players in the NBA have been successful with such a low release. Since you can't misdirect that fact you simply ignore it.

At the end of the day results matter. At the end of a game there is a winner and a loser. it doesn't matter if the loser played better or the winner got lucky.

No matter how much ordinal data nonsense you come up with it doesn't change the fact that BK has had higher picks than any current GM and that he has very little to show for them.

I am hopeful that Acie can change some of that. I won't go out on a limb and say he will be as good as Deron but i am hopeful he can be close. And if Marvin becomes as good as Deng, which i think is possible (not necesarily probable), then that will take some of the sting out of BK's blunders in the 04 and 05 drafts.

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(No reply from _sturt_ to the topic presented.)

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(exodus

speaking)... I didn't think you would answer. you always talk in hypotheticals to avoid reality.

The reality is this.

If Deng has the ball and childress is guarding him, Deng can rise up and shoot a jumper over him easily, as he has done time and again.

If Childress has the ball and Deng is guarding him, there is no chance Childress can get his shot off. If he tries Deng can block it with his head if he wants to.

That is the undeniable, obvious reality. It was obvious then and is obvious now.

None of your hypothetical nonsense can change that. You make up rankings that have no relevance to anything. You might as well be talking about hockey or the NFL but your nonsense has nothing to do with what happens on the court.

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(No reply from _sturt_ to this post.)

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(exodus

speaking)... You are trying to defend the Childress pick yet, in your explanation, you don't even mention his name. Talk about avoidance.

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(No reply from _sturt_ to this post.)

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_sturt_ finally said:

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But here's my final retort to you. Period...

If my argument didn't make sense the first time to you, I've already said, "so be it."

You may consider me a fool, that's your right... but I'm not foolish enough to think you can be convinced about anything when you have so much ego invested in a position...

I'm not so foolish to think it's worth investing any additional time in playing the game you want to play.

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(Tune in again soon to see if the continues...)

[AHF]

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Gregg deserves to be locked in a room with Barry Bonds after Bonds has gone 10 games without a homer and is still trying break the HR record after someone tells Barry that eating Gregg's liver will boost his testosterone.

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Well, they'd have to dig up his corpse- as Eric Gregg passed away in June 2006 of a massive stroke. I've found it's generally not a good thing to speak ill of the dead, so RIP Eric Gregg I guess.

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I had forgotten that. I don't regret criticizing his performance as an ump which was so bad it was legendary but now I feel a little bad about wishing ill on him. RIP.

[exodus]

I suppose this post isn't a reply either. What button did u hit to create this post? The REPLY button.

When you enter a thread to argue with me you are being justified and reasonable. If i do it to you i am stalking.

If you insult me personally you are justified. If i do it to you i am childish.

If i criticize BK i have a "problem with authority". When you go on and on with your consipiracy theories about "The Tyrant" you are just being reasonable.

I can certainly see your attraction to conspiracy theories. Since they are just speculation and can't generally be proven or disproven you don't have to worry about those pesky facts getting in the way. You are free to let your hypothetical musings run wild.

And for your next trick you will hit the REPLY button to respond to this post all the while telling yourself it isn't really a reply. Clinton would be proud. Your powers of self delusion are quite impressive i must say.

[exodus]

Rogue Ref May Blow Whistle

July 22, 2007 - 8:25 am

New York Daily News -

Federal authorities believe the referee at the center of the betting and game-fixing probe rocking the NBA will cooperate with investigators - and possibly name other officials or players involved in the scandal, law enforcement sources told The New York Daily News.

Saddled with large gambling debts, Tim Donaghy allegedly used mobbed-up bookies to place thousands of dollars in bets on games over the past two seasons, including contests he officiated, the sources said.

Two of the bookies are expected to be arrested this week after Donaghy, who has resigned from the NBA, surrenders to authorities in New York as early as Tuesday, the sources said.

New details of the growing scandal emerged yesterday and painted a troubling picture of the 40-year-old Donaghy. The so-called family man, who hid his frightening temper and shady associates from public view, has been arrested twice for erratic and threatening behavior.

Sources told The New York Daily News that federal authorities first heard Donaghy's name on a wiretap during investigations into the Gambino crime family over the past year.

A Philadelphia wiseguy wanna-be is believed to have threatened to use his contacts in the Gambino family to hurt Donaghy if the ref - already known as a heavy gambler - did not share inside information and help fix games, sources said.

That gangster also claimed he would expose Donaghy's serious debts if he did not cooperate with the bookies, who allegedly won thousands of dollars with the referees' help, sources said. [READ]

[TexasPete]

The NBA and Lord Stern are in deep crap. I'm happy because the NBA needs a serious overhaul. The refs are just awful, and the ratings are in the toilet.

If this scandal leads to some major changes then I'm all for it. And Donaghy sounds like a pig human being anyway. I would love to know which fouls he called in Game 3 of the Spurs-Suns, the game that was such a joke, when Amare played only 20 minutes due to some terrible calls.

You can bet some reporters are doing some serious research which will be interesting to say the least.

[Lacsho]

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The NBA and Lord Stern are in deep crap. I'm happy because the NBA needs a serious overhaul. The refs are just awful, and the ratings are in the toilet.

If this scandal leads to some major changes then I'm all for it. And Donaghy sounds like a pig human being anyway. I would love to know which fouls he called in Game 3 of the Spurs-Suns, the game that was such a joke, when Amare played only 20 minutes due to some terrible calls.

You can bet some reporters are doing some serious research which will be interesting to say the least.

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I think the feds in conjunction with the president are trying to cover something big up (something political), and they are using sports to divert our attention. Bonds,Vick, and now this ref. Who's next? It seems like everyone in sports is fair game, except Kerney (didn't a female friend of his get raped in his house, while he was home) I guess that was'nt news worthy, so it was just swept under the rug.

[TexasPete]

Don't look man, the boogeyman is under your bed.

You think the President has manufactured a few sports stories to divert attention from political stories? Man, he is powerful. LMAO.

Some people just don't get it. There are some major league screwballs walking around.

[sturt]

Making the NBA's Gambling Ref Pay

News broke this weekend of an ongoing FBI investigation into NBA referee Tim Donaghy. Donaghy, who seems to be a man of truly exemplary personal character, is accused of betting on NBA games (surely a violation of league rules), associating with low-level mobsters, and may have bet on games which he called as a referee. There are suggestions that he may have called games to enhance his prospects of beating the "spread." Of course, innocent until proven guilty and all that jazz. Donaghy may face serious criminal sanction, and has already resigned his officiating position, but might he also face civil liability?

Some possible claimants:

1. Ron Artest, John Green, and the Palace of Auburn Hills. Donaghy was one of the officials calling the infamous "Basketbrawl" game between the Pistons and the Pacers. If he bet on that game (which was a blowout long before fisticuffs erupted), and allowed things to get out of hand in part to protect his wager, he might be on the hook to anyone who has suffered financially as a proximate result of his misconduct. That would include anyone sued as a result of those events.

2. Rasheed Wallace. Donaghy had a famous interaction with Wallace, in which the player questioned his calls in a post-game shouting match. Wallace was suspended, and if Donaghy had bet on that game, might Wallace legitimately recover his lost wages for the suspension period (assuming there were some)? Might he also recover damages associated with the contribution that this incident may have made to the development of his reputation as a bad apple? Perhaps he would have gotten a higher contract without such a label.

3. Bettors on the other side of the spread. In Nevada, at least, legal bettors on NBA games on the other side of the spread might have some sort of claim against Donaghy for violating the state's gambling laws.

Even those who support relaxing bans on players or coaches betting on their own teams can hardly tolerate an official betting on games in which he may play a decisive role.

The only problem? By the time Donaghy gets done (unsuccessfully) fending of the FBI, his official residence will be the poor house.

-- Posted by Geoffrey Rapp @ 7/21/2007 05:30:00 PM

http://sports-law.blogspot.com/

[DrReality]

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The "superstar rules" have eroded the sport in a variety of ways that have all been to the detriment of the NBA product. I agree that a team with one great star usually trumps a team of just 5 good players because the superstar will get a lot of calls down the stretch and many games are close until the end and the teams that get to the line the most usually win.

The refs almost always side with the LBJ's, the Jordans, the Wades, the Kobes, the Duncans', on and on. I have been in the stands too many times watching a nice Hawk effort get destroyed by a rotten call or two down the stretch. We all know what time it is you know? The coaches just can't talk about it because The Czar will slap them down until they shut up. They all know that you can't fight Stern and win. Ask Van Gundy, he almost got thrown out of the league. The players and coaches all know you can't fight city hall.

The other terrible result of the "superstar rules" is that the game itself suffers from one on one disease. We no longer beat the Euros because they play team ball and care zero about who scores. They are all just as thrilled to make the great pass as to score the bucket. That's why 5 inferior individuals whip are 5 superstars asses in international play now. I heard Coach K was trying to get the team concept back last summer but when I watched Carmelo just jacking up shots I knew we were in deep crap and that Carmelo had decided he was going to be the man...meanwhile we lost to a better "team".

The one on one superstar culture is hardly basketball at its best but it is the American Way. It is also a lousy product that most people don't like watching as it turns out. Basketball in its best form is team basketball where our 5 work together to beat their 5. It is all guys equal and working together for the good of the team, not the star. ESPN loved Kobes 81 point game but a basketball purist should vomit because that should never happen in a team sport like basketball.

Stern has presided over some very good things but has done some terrible things as well. He is extremely overrated in his job and has far too much power. The refs are a reflection of his leadership because Stern is over everything, a micro-manager that makes all important decisions. He wanted a superstar culture, and now he has it. The ratings on his "creation" would suggest strongly that his vision is a big pile of crap.

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Great post. Just want to say that Stern swept Jordan's gambling problem under the rug very smoothly. MJ played minor league baseball for a while. Don't think this one will go away so easily. The mob stuff makes it sound pretty sticky.

[DrReality]

Ex and Sturt:

Consider going on Judge Judy. Put it all on the table. Just not on HS again.

[sturt]

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Ex and Sturt:

Consider going on Judge Judy. Put it all on the table. Just not on HS again.

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Yes, dad.

[TexasPete]

I hope that Stern gets knocked down a couple of pegs after this episode. He was quoted last year as saying "his" NBA referees were the best in any sport, the most qualified, the best trained, and the most competant. Why? Because they are Sterns. His ego is the size of Manhattan and he takes out a bazooka and shoots everybody that questions his league, or authority, on anything.

I think its past time for him to step aside and let somebody elses vision preside over the league. I would love to see the games called straight up with no regard to superstars. That would also foster a more team first approach and the fans would appreciate the product a lot more. The truth is that the NBA is broke and needs fixing. Stern would piss in your ear and tell you the league is all wondeful but the hard data suggest otherwise. The NBA product is not very good right now and Stern better wakeup because they could easily become the next NHL where very few give a damn.

[sturt]

Wonder how he'll spin it... perhaps this is the moment where he publicly humbles himself, acknowledges there's a problem, acknowledges whatever role he's had in the sore festering into a boil (enabling, at the least), and laying out some plans for re-establishing the league's integrity.

Perhaps.

Perhaps he'll just be defensive again.

EDIT:

Here's the statement posted at NBA.com:

"As we previously stated, we have been cooperating with the FBI in their investigation of allegations that a single NBA referee bet on NBA games that he officiated. As part of that cooperation, we were asked by the Government not to comment about the investigation, but in light of the widespread press coverage and the naming of the referee, Tim Donaghy, we consider it appropriate to make a fuller statement.

"We would like to assure our fans that no amount of effort, time or personnel is being spared to assist in this investigation, to bring to justice an individual who has betrayed the most sacred trust in professional sports, and to take the necessary steps to protect against this ever happening again. We will have more to say at a press conference that will be scheduled for next week."

NBA.com also says that the 11 am press conference will be streamed from their site, as well as carried live on NBA.com... I suspect The Worldwide Leader will also be tuning in...