Diesel Blaming JT Instead Of Hog Again (Go Figure)

[Diesel]

IF he can't run the offense.

JT has not shown that he can run the offense. For 4 years we have been trying to find solutions for a SG in a PGs body?

Bring in Penny.

Bring in Barry.

Bring in Payton.

Bring in Some big gaurd that can cover for JT's inadequecies at the PG.

OR

Bring in Pippen.

Bring in Odom.

Bring in Toni.

Bring in some Point Forward who can run the offense while JT does what he does best... Go Set up for his shot.

Well, Walter. You can try to divert attention... I mean the original post is about Miller vs. JT. I would take Miller over JT in a Heartbeat. Because Miller would run this offense.

However, you change the subject to JT vs Big Dog. Even there... When you look closely, you see that Big Dog is a better SF when JT is not his PG? The numbers he had with Cassell is NO LIE... 20/6 Plus.. 46-47% from the field and less than 3 turnovers per game.

Note this quote:

"It doesn't matter who scores the points, it's who can get the ball to the scorer"

-Larry Bird

For 4 years, Terry has failed at getting the ball to the scorer. If you truly want to compare Terry to Grob... Look over their Careers. Grob is a former allstar... Almost made it to the big game 2 years ago. Has been a model of consistency. 20/6/46%/

Check your history Walter. For the PAST 3 YEARS... The Hawks have come on Strong in their final 20 games are so. I think it's scheduling. We have all home games during that time (Thanks Ringling Bros). Still there's nothing solid to lay your hat on. Give me a Shot at Miller, I would take him and think nothing about it.

[Guest Walter]

It was you who pointed out that 7 APG was not enough but 8 doesn't matter. Whatever. Guess what your hero, Cassell averaged the last 3 yearrs at Pg. 7.6, 6.7, and 5.8. HOLY COW [censored] BAT MAN! DIESEL JUST STEPPED IN HIS OWN MESS!

I'll take what JT gives as a point over that [censored]! Considering all of JT's "problems" including not playing hardly his first year and not playing the point for a year and a half, it's hard to imagine that his 5.6 APG for his first four years all but match Cassell's 6.1 APG for his career. Considering JT has improved his APG total every year and by 1.7 APG this past year alone (& yes, Email was our supposed Pg for the start of last year, remember, we needed a big point guard that could guard 2s.), do you think JT is going to have any problem blowing Cassell away over a career? [censored] NO!

W

[Diesel]

7 or 8 doesn't matter if he can't run the offense.

Maybe it's because you DON'T watch the games? That's makes it foolish to even argue with you because all you do is watch stats. Ask Weseldom..> Even he knows that Stats don't tell the whole Story. However, JT doesn't run the offense. We have a brand of Choas and Lack of Movement. It's because JT would rather play SG than PG. IN the last 20 games, DIon Stepped up and played better...and took the pressure off of JT. However, that's not a cure. A Cure is a PG who knows how to get everybody involved.

Since you're so interested in Numbers, You'd love those CLipper players.. That's all they care for. However, why do you think expert look at the Hawks and scratch their head?

Why do you think that Jeff Van Gundy said that he'd rather have Charlie Ward (a PG) than JT because he would have to wait on JT to develop?

Why do you think that Our team has been in the lottery for the past 3 years even though we have had TALENT? It's not Big dog's fault?

Why Do you think, Our Former GM Spent Most of his time trying to figure out how to make a 17 ppg SG into a PG and what players to surround him with to make it happen?

Here's a CLUE... JT don't get it and hasn't gotten it for the last 4 years. Lon had to dumb down his offense to suit JT. Lenny had to cut out many plays for JT.

And you have the gall to say we should pass up ANdRE Miller because JT looked good in those Same Home games down the stretch that he always look good in.

Get a CLUE Walter.

[Guest]

you keep refering back to the fact that JT was moved back to sg last year while MM was installed at the point...what you fail to discuss in that nice little tirade is...WHO WAS PLAYING SG BEFORE?!

There's no denying that JT can play sg pretty well...much better than DJ or Ira could have last year (or this year). Dion was hurt quite a bit...so it came down to would you rather have JT and SAR as the team's two scorers (sg and pf) or JT as the distributor to one scorer (SAR) and sg/sf's like Ira and Email...it just doesn't make sense. Injuries plagued the team and we needed points...MM was a decent enough, stable pg...JT almost had to moved back to sg in order for th team to score at all.

[Diesel]

Actually, it was 3 yrs ago now..> >During MMs first year here, JT's second year, LON's first year.

Originally, we lined up:

JT/Lrob/JJ/Hendu/Deke.

However, right before JT was benched, we had a lineup of:

JT/JJ/DJ/Hendu/Deke.

We were not doing so bad... JJ was doing very well.

Then JT was Benched for Maloney.

Then a game or 2 later, JJ decided that he was doing so well that he would go and get his knee Sonicated. Terry was inserted because we lacked players... Took over. and became starting 2.

JJ was then traded in Jan for Knight.

[Guest Walter]

until after the All-star break in which JT took over the starting Pg duties full-time. That is unless Diesel wants to insist that Vaughn was the Sg.

Again, since JT took over the full-time Pg duties he has averaged > 8 (last year) and 8 (this year) assists per game and won 28 out of 49 games WITHOUT Hog in the lineup.

W

[Guest Walter]

If 8 or even >8 APG "doesn't matter if you can't run the offense" then "can't run the offense" doesn't mean [censored] IF YOU WIN!

Since being made the full-time starter at Pg (after Vaughn was demoted dumba$$) the second half of last year, JT has not only averaged more than 8 APG, he has won 28 out of 49 games AS LONG AS HE PLAYED WITHOUT BIG HOG!

...

"our former GM"...you called an idiot 100000000000000000000 times. Why now does anything he thought suport your argument.

Whateva Mr. #1 Hog apologist. You'd curse the team to save Hog's face. An UGLY display of a sick "fan".

W

[Guest]

I'm not really defending Diesel here, but what I think he refers to in "running the offense" has nothing to do with wins or losses...it refers to getting the ball to people off screens, making sure SAR gets the ball nearer the paint than the 3pt line etc...

However, our team, in lacking chemistry, lacks a true offense for JT to run. I'm not sure that the verdict should be in on whether or not JT can do it or not...because GRob has to play in a half court offense when he's involved, and, outside of SAR, the rest of our players are more uptempo type of players. GRob could get away with this in Mil as Ray, Sam, and at times TT could run the fast breaks while leaving the half court sets primarily to GRob in the post and Ray on the perimeter (and sometimes penetrating).

Diesel, I truly think that it comes down est. what type of offense this team is going to run...and that revolves around what type of player we get to play SG. If it's slim or someone like that, with athleticism and an finishing ability, we need to trade GRob and est. a new style of play.

Really thinking about it, and I'm sorry to keep harping on this point, that's the decision we're faced with. Taller sg's with athleticism aren't that hard to find, and GRob still has worth on the right team.

We're faced with two options

a) let DD run the point and go find a sg like Person...

b) retain JT at a resonable contract, something around 40 million but not more, and find an athletic sg to compliment the rest of the team. Ira might have to be replaced.moved to the bench in time, but he's suitable enough in the short term.

[Diesel]

At least, the first part.

Walter thinks like ARR.. That wins and losses or number of assists determines if he's running the offense. NOT So, Dion ran the offense more than JT did this past season.

However, I agree that it depends on what kind of system we run and we have discussed this. However, I disagree that the verdict is still out on JT. That's what we have said for the past 2 years. I honestly think that JT would be best as a SG. Unfortunately we don't have the team to make that happen. He has not shown me that he can be an effective PG and I'm starting to believe Van Gundy and Marbury who says being a PG is either you are or you're not. I'm trying to think of some guys who developed into PGs from SG... And there are not any. I mean, GP is the closest and he was a mighty fine PG to start.

Getting an assist is as easy as bringing the ball up and throwing it to the first open person you see. That means little. We need someone who can read defenses, Call plays, direct, make good passes to the post, find cutters, exploiting mismatches, etc... That's running the offense.

Right now, our team is a Halfcourt team. However, I'm not ruling out keeping JT and building a fast break team. Once again, I believe that would require going to a two PG set. Maybe JT and Stoudamire and not be concerned about defense as much. Last night, I watch Nash, NVE, and a Small Squad score 83 [censored] points in the 1st half. Outscoring becomes easy when you have good scorers... We have good scorers... we need to learn to get the ball to them.

[Guest]

we also need someone to handle the ball with them. That's what scares me about GRob...we know what kind of handles SAR has, JT too to a large degree..."one" more ballhandler would help tremendously, but if you have a sf and pf who don't have spectacular handles (there are only about 3 pf's that I can think of that do - KG, Dirk, and, well, there was someone else) having two above average guys with handles might not be enough, though it'd be a vast improvment that I'd be willing to try for a season.

I guess, when it comes down to it, I see GRob's game, it's pluses and minuses, strengths and weaknesses and I just don't feel that it's worth trying to build around. SAR's worth more than GRob, and considering neither are spectacular defenders, or even really above average, it hurts to have them on the floor together.

Some has said "don't play them together but retain them both..." honestly guys, this won't work. Not with the salaries, the minutes, or the players. Someone has to go and I just don't think GRob is what this team needs and we're too far away in terms of draft spots and trade prospects to build around him...

[Guest]

one thing I forgot to ask -

D, if an assist is that simple, then how come others don't get comparable numbers? There are plenty of guys with enough talent around them to do it...how come they don't?

[jaywalker72]

I don't know if that was sarcastic, or that you really believe that Dion did a better job in getting the offense going that Jason, but if you are, that's a laugh and a half.

I agree that JT did not run the offense as good as the 7th best point guard in the L, as his APG would indicate.

However...

Dion did not run the offense at any point this season, much less do it as well as Jason.

Yes, Jason has a long way to go, but to declare Dion a more accomplished playmaker this season that Jason is an exaggeration.

Again, it may have been a tongue-in-cheek comment, but if it wasn't...hoo boy, that's a good one.

[Diesel]

The assists is about both the PG and the scorer. Some people don't get assists more often because they pass it to guys who are not in position to score....i.e. it takes them 3-4 steps to get to their spot.

Some guys don't rack up on assists because they don't have the team surrounding them to make assists.

Some guys don't get assists simply because their scorers are Low percentage scorers...

However, this is the luxury that JT has had.

SAR = just about 50% shooter. More over, he usually doesn't [censored] around with the ball unless you throw it to him while he's on the 3 pt line.

Ira = High percentage shooter (mainly because NOBODY gaurds him).

These things make for the easy score when you throw the ball to htat person.

However,

Have you ever seen JT pass the ball to the cutting Sf?

-Hawks Offense typically have no movement because ....What's the point?

Have you ever seen JT Read a defense and Call a play?

-Nope. I've even seen JT raise his hand for most of this season as though he is calling a play... However, every time he does that, he dribbles across the halfcourt line, pass to the first open guy he can find, Watch them move with the ball and the ball rotates back to him at the top of the key. This is a drill we used to do in HS...

Have you ever seen JT exploit a mismatch?

-Nope. SAR could be Hot... On Fire. JT will not throw the ball into SAR consistently.

On a game by game basis, JT will do rudimentary Gaurd things then once in a while, he will call off a pick and try to take his man one on one.

People... That's sandlot basketball.

[Guest Walter]

In reply to:

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"The assists is about both the PG and the scorer. Some people don't get assists more often because they pass it to guys who are not in position to score....i.e. it takes them 3-4 steps to get to their spot."

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Sure.

In reply to:

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"Some guys don't rack up on assists because they don't have the team surrounding them to make assists.

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Agree.

In reply to:

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"Some guys don't get assists simply because their scorers are Low percentage scorers...

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Again, agreed.

In reply to:

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"However, this is the luxury that JT has had."

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Uh oh. Here we go. JT having the life of luxury with the likes of Theo, SAR, Ira, and DG to pass to. The life of luxury.

In reply to:

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"SAR = just about 50% shooter. More over, he usually doesn't [censored] around with the ball unless you throw it to him while he's on the 3 pt line."

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SAR has to first get the ball in a place in which he "doesn't (HAVE TO) [censored] around with the ball". That's the Pg's job. So if SAR "doesn't have to [censored] around with the ball", JT is doing his job.

In reply to:

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"Ira = High percentage shooter (mainly because NOBODY gaurds him)."

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...and because Ira gets the ball when he is open. JT is a playmaker capable of Pg penetrations due to his remarkable quickness and he is capable of finding Ira and making the pass. Sounds like a Pg to me.

In reply to:

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"These things make for the easy score when you throw the ball to htat person."

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DUMBASS, A PG'S JOB IS TO MAKE FOR EASY SCORES! WHAT THE [censored] ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT?!? D@MN YOU EVEN COMPLAIN ABOUT ALL THIS WHEN JT IS 28-21 SINCE BECOMING THE FULL-TIME STARTING PG THE SECOND HALFF OF LAST SEASON WHEN HOG DOESN'T PLAY! WHINE, COMPLAING, WHINE, CRY,............

However,

In reply to:

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"Have you ever seen JT pass the ball to the cutting Sf?

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What cutting Sf? HOG!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! That guy couldn't cut to save his life! I have seen JT throw it numerous times to a cutting Ira. Remember those easy baskets Ira gets. That's because he actually cuts and JT draws the D and finds him!

In reply to:

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"-Hawks Offense typically have no movement because ....What's the point?"

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AND B-I-G H-O-G WAS THE REASON THERE WAS "NO POINT TO OFFENSIVE MOVEMENT"! He shot 60/100 shots more than SAR and JT in 13 fewer games/500 fewer minutes! BIG HOG MISSED A 1/6th OF A SEASON AND FAR OUTSHOT OUR TWO BEST PLAYERS! WORSE, Hog could only turn the ball over like it was greased. I guess he still needs two all-star guards (one not named Terrell Brandon because he apparently wasn't good enough to make Hog look good) beside him to make him look good.

In reply to:

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"Have you ever seen JT Read a defense and Call a play? -Nope."

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I ALWAYS heard that if you use "always" and "never" the answer was false on true and false questions. Have you ever seen JT win 28-21 games as the full-time starting Pg WITHOUT Hog? Apparently not. You cannot claim APG are not an important reflection of a Pg's abilities, that how he "runs an offense is", not establish some objective criteria for demonstrating what "running an offense" means", and then remotely suggest other than regardless of your biased characterization, JT wins games as the full-time starting Pg as long as Hog is not playing (or wins increasingly more the less Hog shoots).

In reply to:

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"Have you ever seen JT exploit a mismatch?

-Nope. SAR could be Hot... On Fire. JT will not throw the ball into SAR consistently.

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PULEAZE!?!?! JT WINS GAMES AS THE STARTING PG WITHOUT HOG! Ya blind?

In reply to:

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"People... That's sandlot basketball."

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Your argumentation is sandlot argumentation. In Hog's absence we won 9-4 games with JT at the point. We won increasingly the less and less Hog shot in the game with JT at the point. Without Hog last year we went 19-17 despite no Theo and a M.A.S.H. unit team once JT was given the starting Pg position full-time (and Vaughn was made the BU Pg).

We win with JT and without Hog. We don't win with Hog PERIOD!

How hard is this for the god complex, ego stroking, sandlot #1 Hog apologist to get?

[Diesel]

In reply to:

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SAR has to first get the ball in a place in which he "doesn't (HAVE TO) [censored] around with the ball". That's the Pg's job. So if SAR "doesn't have to [censored] around with the ball", JT is doing his job.

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For those of you who don't watch. Earlier in the season, SAR did get the ball around the 3 pt line. If you had watched you would know this. In fact, Terry was often responsible for throwing the ball to either him or Big dog well out of position. Many times, it was like JT expect Big Dog to transform into Toni and run the offense. Again, had you watched you would know this.

Credit must be given to Stotts for getting SAR away from the 3 pt line and back closer to the low post.

In reply to:

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and because Ira gets the ball when he is open. JT is a playmaker capable of Pg penetrations due to his remarkable quickness and he is capable of finding Ira and making the pass. Sounds like a Pg to me.

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Again, you show that you don't watch the games. JT rarely drives and dishes. You'd believe that with his speed he would. I thought he would... But he doesn't. Get the NBA League pass and watch a game Walter. Many times, Ira got the ball after it swung around to JT for the second time. It wasn't that JT created ANYTHING... It's just that he was open when the ball came his way. Like I said before... Our offense offers very little movement... and that includes JT. The only time he really moves is when he has decided that he would call his own number and take try to take his man off the dribble.

As far as your last comment... Watch a game. JT doesn't make it easier for anyone to score. He doesn't create... Watch a game. He doesn't read defenses.. Watch a game.... He doesn't direct.... Watch a game. All he does is the same 3 passes he does everytime down.... Watch a game.

BTW... Just BARELY beating the Wizards (lucky play) and the Cavs at HOME is not enough to be considered a reason to move in a direction... Watch a game. You make a lot out of a handful of wins that really held NO meaning. And you go so far as to make it sound as if Grob would have played we would have lost? Get a CLUE.

[Guest Walter]

The accusation that a Pg like JT can't play with a player like Hog is a COMPLEMENT! Hog is an on the court team killer. ON defense he is worse than HORRID, this year allowing the opposition 11 more PPG than our team with Ira. That's like playing 5 against 6. No team, much less Pg, can work with that kind of sieve on defense.

Offensively, Hog leads his team in TOS perinnially and Hog shot 1/12 more shots than JT in 1/6 of the court time!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's 1 FGA every 2.07 MPG! As a team we only took a shot every .61 MPG. That means that just about every third shot for our team Hog took when he played.

SAR had 1 shot attempt every 2.61 MPG

Hog shot 26% more often (2.61/2.07) than SAR!

JT 1 every 2.70 MPG.

Hog shot 30% (2.7/2.07) more often than JT!

similarly...

Steve Francis = 1 FGA every 2.53 MPG.

Antione Walker = 1 FGA every 2.08 MPG!

Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, Paul Pierce, and Allen Iverson all shot more FGAs per minute than Hog but THEY SHOULD and they are all Sgs. THERE IS NOT A SF IN THE LEAGUE THAT SHOT AS MANY FGAs PER MINUTE AS HOG! Not Garnett (1 FGA per 2.24 MPG), not Rose (1 FGA per 2.12 MPG), not even Mashburn (1 FGA per 2.09 MPG)!

No Pg can keep Hog from shooting! NONE! Only an injury can keep him from shooting! He's led his team every year of his career in FGAs. That was with Terrell Brandon or Cassell as his Pg and Allen as his Sg! DOESN'T MATTER! Hog shoots. That's ALL he does. No D. No handle. No skills other than the willingness to shoot ANYTHING and do so with moderate success except past 18'. Nothing new, won't change, and nobody should be judged on the league's most shootin'est Sf in the NBA failure to have a conscience.

Hog shoots more than any SF in the NBA P-E-R-I-O-D! No wonder we won increasingly more the less he shot extending to the point in which he wasn't even playing for us at all. Nobody can justify him shooting everything that came to him like that and nobody can be blamed in the early season for TRYING to work with a teamate until they learned he had NO conscience.