Diesel Blaming JT Instead Of Hog Again (Go Figure)

[Guest Walter]

Since having a remotely healthy team and being made the full-time starting Pg the second half of last season, JT has led the Hawks to a 28-21 record WITHOUT Big Hog! This has included a 19-17 streak when Theo was still injured and a 9-4 streak this year.

Now, effectively the same team WITH Hog has "led" the team to a 26-43 record.

Thus, in 20 more games with Hog we got 2 fewer wins than without Hog over this span of JT being the full-time, starting Pg (with a remotely healthy team).

Of course, these 26 wins in 69 games included some "big wins" according to Diesel. First, I'd hope so and second

how many "big wins" can a team with a 37.5% winning percentage have?

We have all been exposed to our ability to win at a remarkable clip WITHOUT Hog and our ability to win considerably more the fewer shots he takes when he does play. In short the less Hog you have the better the team is regardless of Diesel's ego's scapegoat, JT.

Unfortunately, there is no way to get less Hog, PERIOD! Hog has been the first option for every team he has played on, by far taking the most shots for his team per minute played every year. He will never accept being a 2nd option much less a third option or, ideally, coming off the bench. Similarly, he has led his team in TOs each of the last 3 years. You want him to not only to shoot far less than he does but handle the ball far less. THAT he can also not do. Regardless, his defense is so poor that defensively the team allows 11 PPG more with him in the lineup than without. As if paying $12 million for a player you want far less of if not NONE of makes any sense.

"JT's fault" = Diesel's forum insulting desperation to serve his ego.

W

[Diesel]

Diesel blames a MULTITUDE of Chemistry problems on our season... Not just JT and Not Just Big Dog. There are Many factors...

Walter in his simple mindedness thinks that the PG has nothing to do with how the offense responds? Walter, what comment do you have about JT? Do you think that various coaches have found JT to be inept as a PG? Remember, Lenny benched him for Coles. Lon Benched him for Matt Maloney then later moved him to SG to play beside Knight and later Vaughn.

I recognize that playing Ira (a better defender) makes our defense better and helps us to win against teams who doesn't play strong defense on the road.

However, That's not our problem. Our problem is the way our team is built.

1. First, Our team is built to score. We have the big three. JT, Big Dog, and SAR... Could be three 20 ppg players. We were meant to score. Defense was somewhat of an after thought because our big three are all Lacking on defense. So we throw Theo in there.

Problem with Theo. He's a good Shot Blocker, but he's not big/strong enough to be a Physical C. I watched guys like Grant, White, Heywood, Magloire all try to manhandle Theo with success. The simple truth is that Theo is very undersized. He's lighter than SAR and Hendu. He can't be a positional defender. Now if we had Duncan playing PF, that wouldn't matter... But we have SAR... Who is himself a Tweener. Two Small to play PF, not a good enough shooter or athletic enough to be a Sf (but can play the position). But Reef plays the Post better than most bigger PFs. Then there's Big Dog. Yes, he has problems. First, he's got a scorers mentality.... You know, like Dominique used to have. That means if you throw the ball to Big Dog, expect him to score or try to. Secondly, His defense is not great. However, everybody always mentions the negatives but we rarely hear the pluses... The Pluses is 20 points... He's a very good rebounder for a Sf. I think Only Shawn Marion and Rashard Lewis rebounded better at the Sf spot (and Lewis might be questionable). For a Sf, he's a fairly good passer. For as much as you guys cry about him shooting, he managed to get more assists than Most Sfs, I think he's top 15 amoung Sfs. Then there's Glover. First off Glover can't handle the rock. Secondly, Glover can't shoot the Long Ball that well. So what we have in Glover is a throw back to the old days with the SG who was athletic, defensive. That hurts us at the PG position... Why?

Because JT is still prone to dribble into double teams and traps. He's still prone to mis cutters in the lane. He still haven't learn many plays. You will never see these 2 things from JT... An Alley Opp (more than 1 time a game) and a no look pass for a bucket. Reason being is because:

1. JT doesn't run plays.

2. JT doesn't Know the plays.

3. JT lacks good court vision.

4. JT doesn't have PG instincts.

So where does that leave us.

Undersized C and PF.

Ball hog at SF.

SG that Can't Shoot or handle the ball.

PG that can't run the offense.

Multitude of problems.

And yet you point to one fragment of the season where we won...

Since you don't watch the games and live by the stats...

Since our Offense ran so Smoothly without Dog...

What were our Offensive PPG differentials, FG% differentials, Assists Differentials, and TO differentials for those games. I would really be interested in knowing how many more assists we had in those games than in games when Big Dog Played?

Multitude of problems...

[cynic]

Rodney Monroe had something to do with it, too.

[Guest]

I'm truly tired of this "SAR is too small to play PF" argument. True, he plays poor to mediocre defense against other pf's...esp the more physical ones...

Chris Webber - 6'10, 245

SAR - 6-9 - 245

Reef's three years younger.

Is Webber "too small" to play pf? that one inch is essentially nothing...though if you want to use it, then it says that Reef has slightly more muscle (or at least weight, and I don't think he looks fat at all) per inch....

where's that argument now?

[Diesel]

He's too small to play PF beside Theo.

Is Theo even 240? He's like 235 right?

Theo needs a PF that's like 6'10 260.

a Ty Hill/ Matt Geiger type.

[TJ_Swann]

Kevin Willis 7'0" 270lbs, who we talked about and ask for in the preseason.

[Guest Walter]

MULTITUDE of chemistry problems my A$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They win with a smaller frontline having Ira instead of Hog. They win 28 out of 49 games with JT starting at the Pg full-time and Hog either not being on the team or being injured and out. They win increasingly the less Hog plays and fewer shot attempts he takes. They win.

You confuse non-taditional roles and question marks with "chemistry problems". The LAST thing the team has WITHOUT Hog is a chemistry problem. YOU DO NOT LOSE A PLAYER WITH THE ABILITY TO SHOOT AND SCORE 20 (BUT DO NOTHING ELSE), WIN 30% MORE GAMES WITHOUT HIM REPLACING HIM IN THE STARTING LINEUP WITH A CBAer, AND THEN CLAIM YOU HAVE A CHEMISTRY PROBLEM WITHOUT THAT PLAYER THAT CAUSED YOU TO LOOSE 30% MORE GAMES WITH HIM IN THE LINEUP BECAUSE YOU WIN 30% MORE WITHOUT HIM.

JT may not be John Stockton or Kidd but then again no one else is. He is one of the league's top Pgs statistically and he flat out wins as a Pg without Hog and with limited talent. Truth is he more reflects the role of most Pgs in the NBA than Stockton and he does so having played the 2 as much as the 1 up to this point. Theo may not be the heaviest center butin the EC he doesn't have to be. He is perhaps the quickest and certainly is highly effective given his leading the league in shots blocked. He certainly was the team leader on defense, often positioning our defenders and lighting a fire under their asses. SAR is not a prototypical POWER foward, having the ability to play some Sf, but he too is highly effective in the paint. Ira, while not an offensive juggernaut at the 3, was the team's most efficient shooter from 2 and the 3 after an offseason of what must have been intense work to improve upon this aspect of his game. He's not a prototypical player in the NBA either, having risen from CBA obscurity with defense and a HIGHLY efficient offensive game. Glover is even a Sf playing in a Sgs body and he has questions surrounding his ability to remain healthy and continue to develop.

So there exist question marks with this crew. True. They are nontraditional in some manner or another. They could use the help of a good, ball handling 2, an big power house off the bench, and/or another pure athlete at the 2/3. This is not a question of chemistry! Moreover, all these pieces can be had. A trade of Big Hog can acquire us 1 or maybe any 2 of these things. DJ appears able to return providing us an athletic 2/3. We even have a developing guard in Dickau to provide a different look at pg.

The fact is, however, regardless of the questionmarks surrounding all our players (and perhaps every player in the league if you want to put them under enough scrutiny...I hear Shaq can't shoot free throws.), that there is no question mark about Big Hog. He is an on the court team killer. The opposition scores 11 more PPG with him playing! ELEVEN! The team wins 30% LESS when he plays! When Hog does play the team wins significantly more the LESS he shoots. Hog has led his team in shots per minute played since he came into the league suggesting he will not do so consistently over any period of time (oh, the irony).

Now back to the point of trying for whatever ego selfish reason to be the #1 Hog-apologist...

"JT is prone to doing this. Theo is too small. SAR is too small along side Theo." BLAH. BLAH. BLAH!

We WIN with these very players that are "prone" and "small" as long as big hog is not playing!

I long for the "chemistry problems" that come with winning, Diesel. Don't you? Or do you prefer the ones that come with losing 30% more of our games?

W

[Blunt91]

I don't think Terry should be given all the credit for the team's better play, the main player was Dion. Dion helped JT out alot by bringing the ball up the court to take some pressure of JT. If Dion is resigned I think we shoud continue t let him play the pointguard role for the team.

[Guest Walter]

I'm not even about crediting JT. I'm only discrediting Hog.

JT, SAR, and Theo need some defense against the #1 Big Hog apologist's nonsense.

W

[Guest]

Something else that has gotten lost in this argument is the manner in which the NBA has changed over the past two years. In the past, SF's like GRob, players with a shot and who could post, were SF's...which is why many call SAR a "tweener."

The prototypical PF lived up to it's name, power. Even through the early 90's and guys like Lambier (and there are still a few around today), the PF role was a guy who wasn't looked to for offense, but rather to provide toughness, interior defense, etc...Martin is a new age version of that. he lacks a true offensive game, but his toughness, physicality, and D make him the ideal pf (Kidd's style of game aside).

Likewise, the SF has become much less of a "post up" position...the majority of the players in that role today are "swingmen," guys with some height, but not necessarily size, who are quite capable of playing sg (though many lack the desired consistent long range capabilities, it's often overlooked). The position has become much more athleticly based...look at the gus recieving all the "acclaim" at the position these days...Finley, Jefferson, Marion, Desmond Mason...most aren't post-up guys...they're athletes with handles, range, etc. GRob can't guard them...and his defense, esp. the effort, was poor enough before he was physically outclassed as well.

These prototypical, historical roles ahve changed. PF's are not often looked to as the focal point of the interior offense (whereas the center was before). He's also expected to be able to hit at least a 12-18 foot jumper with some consistency to counter his post op offense. SAR is almost the epitome of this. True, he doesn't come up enough in the clutch (neither do guys like Webber, Garnett, even Duncan was accused of it prior to this year)...perhaps that has to do with the fact that people aren't sure how to treat these guys. Are they ball handlers? Are the strictly post? It's a combo, but most (save perhaps Dirk and KG) can really handle the ball taht well...including arguably the greatest pf of all time, Malone (who I actually detest).

GRob is more of a tweener than SAR. SAR generally realizes he can't handle the ball, so he doesn't. He rarely takes threes...etc.

[Gray Mule]

Great to see you two old pro posters going at it again.

You two bring life to the board, cause all of us to really

think. We read and say, "Could he be right?" Doesn't

matter which one, when you tow have at it, sparks are

sure to fly!! It's GREAT!!!

Thanks, guys. Keep up the good work. Hawksquawk

still has a life, at least with Walter & Diesel around.

[JTFan31]

I have not looked at those stats about Big Dog playing or when he is not. I know that at the end of the season and throughout the season, the team looked better, with better chemistry and better ball movement. Now is Walter is correct with these stats, then indeed Walter is correct and once more u are wrong Diesel, Big dog is the Hawks problem and definitely not JT nor anyone else.

Now JT is not the best PG out there, but he is definitely one of the leagues best young PG's and I wouldnt take anyone in the draft over JT nor would take Miller over JT, maybe he doesnt have the best vision of all, but then do you really expect JT to be better than Payton or Kidd, I dont.......yes I would love him to, but I will absolutely accept JT just the way he is.......heck 17+ ppg and 7+ apg, is darn good in this league.

[Diesel]

JT/SAR combo... We had a BETTER SF in Toni... A ballhandler to Boot.

WHat Happened? We finished in the lottery.

Defenses Collapsed ON SAR and we were beaten. We all knew that there was a need for another scorer. So this thought that SAR/JT/Theo (and theo is not the scorer or rebounder that Nazr is) can win is stupid. It's been tried before.

Mainly, you have taken a collection of Home games vs INferior teams and have made them into some mountain? Did you watch any of those games? Let's disprove some things. We should have lost to Washington... In the midst of our "streak". Think about it. Washington is not a playoff team. They beat us in Washington the first time and they had us beat in Atlanta. We caught NJ in the midst of a SKID. Those games are not what you are trying to make them. IN fact, I promise you if we start the year without Big Dog with the same Coaching that we had before, we will definitely finish in the lottery.

As far as JT... The Original question is would having Miller be better than Having JT. When you look at our team, youhave to realize that having Miller would be better. JT is a SG... Period. Even when MJ played PG in Chicago he average 7 apg...

[Diesel]

That's just the thing...

You say we had better movement without Grob... True... However, we have limited the options on offense. That makes no sense. We've been there before. We have inferior players and non-scorers playing besides Reef. Yes, Reef becomes our goto guy and yes that simplifies things for JT... But that doesn't mean that we are better than we could be.

We ave tried this before. JT/Reef and a bunch or role players. WHat happens is that Teams learn to focus on Reef. They double Reef in the post, force the ball out to Glover/Ira and make them win for us. The catch is that against good teams... That don't work. We had the luxury of looking good at Home vs. Mediocre teams.

However, limiting our offense is not a good answer. Better would be to get everybody involved by having better Ballhandling.

You said you wouldn't take Miller over JT? Why not. Miller is a proven PG who is able to get his teammates the ball and run the offense. That's already more than JT can do. JT cannot run plays. Then you say JT not having court vision is not neccessary? What Games have you been watching? Do you know that fast breaks kill. We could be so much better if JT could make the right pass at the right time.

However, if we keep things like they are... Look for us to STAY in the lottery. With or without Big Dog. Reason being is that This team will only be as good as it's points ability to get the ball to the scorers.

[Guest]

Jason Terry - Atlanta Hawks

Position: G

Height: 6-2 Weight: 180

College: Arizona '99

Player file | Team stats

2002-03 Statistics

PPG 17.2

RPG 3.4

APG 7.4

SPG 1.56

BPG .17

FG% .428

FT% .887

3P% .371

MPG 38.0

Gilbert Arenas - Golden State Warriors

Position: G

Height: 6-3 Weight: 191

College: Arizona '03

Player file | Team stats

2002-03 Statistics

PPG 18.3

RPG 4.7

APG 6.3

SPG 1.51

BPG .21

FG% .431

FT% .791

3P% .348

MPG 35.0

[Diesel]

OK... I agree.. but what's your point?

I'm talking about the makeup of our team. JT/SAR are not enough offensively. Teams will just swarm SAR and play good defense on the rest. We need another scoring threat.

Big Dog seemed like the answer because while he was at Milwaukee, he was a 46% shooter for the most part. Add that to Reef shooting 50% and we have 2 big offensive threats. The problem is that there was a difference between Grob in Milwaukee and Grob here.

[Guest]

I simply sayiing be careful what you wish for. This team has shown that it can be somewhat successful with SAR and JT as the focal point...trading/not resigning JT would be quite a risk, something I'm not sure I'm ready to do quite yet.

Everyone raves over Arenas and his abilities...how he's going to be so sought after this offseason. This, without mention that they regularly brought in the little general in the fourth quarter (moving Arenas to the bench? not sure since I didn't get to watch many Warriors games).

His numbers aren't really any different than JT's...and yet he's considered a very hot item and the object of everyone's desire...

short of Miller, who I don't think we can pry from Utah...our options in acquiring a upper tier (not top tier, upper tier) fa pg are relatively small...

[Diesel]

Remember, the original argument is would Miller be a Better fit than JT.

My answer is YES.

Other people brought in Big Dog and how we played at the end of the year.

However, with Miller, I just feel that there's no need for addition by Subtraction. i.e. we don't have to dumb down the offense. We don't have to subtract all other scorers but SAR. We can take Miller with Grob and probably get OUTSTANDIng Results because we would have a real PG here instead of a SG turned PG.

[Guest Walter]

Last year we had the most injured tema in the NBA! Moreover, JT didn't take on the starting Pg role full-time until the second half ofthe season! SINCE JT TOOK OVER THE FULL-TIME STARTING PG ROLE (and the team became remotely healthy, although still minus Theo) THE HAWKS HAVE BEEN 28-21 AS LONG AS BIG HOG HAS NOT BEEN A PART OF THE TEAM OR PLAYING!...PERIOD!...END OF DISCUSSION!

In reply to:

---

"So this thought that SAR/JT/Theo (and theo is not the scorer or rebounder that Nazr is) can win is stupid. It's been tried before."

---

WHAT?!?!?! When was it tried? Theo was injured last year MORON! It was tried THIS YEAR and as long as HOG didn't play we won at a 67.5% clip. Moreover, when he did play the less Hog shot the team won increasingly more. HOW HARD IS THAT TO COMPREHEND! The less Hog plays like Hog extending to his not playing at all THE BETTER THE HAWKS PLAY!

Hog has always led his team in FGAs for the season if not by a large amount. Even when playing 13 fewer games and 500 fewer minutes this year he out attempted SAR by 60 and JT by 100 shots. Similarly Hog has led his team in TOs the last 3 years and 7 out of his 9 NBA seasons. Moroever the team allowed 11 MORE PPG with Hog in the lineup than without! ELEVEN! He is an on the court team killer that is not going to change!

...

Lastly, and of little significance as the issue isn't JT (or SAR or Theo) as the #1 Big Hog apologist would like to make it but the on court team killer Hog, JT averaged >8 assists per game the second half of last season. This was after having played a season and a half at the 2 and being shafted by the great playa hate one, Lenny Wilkens. This year, at the end of the season when JT was the starting Pg AND Hog was out injured, JT again averaged 8 assists per game (includes all April games and the second to last game in March...72 assists in 9 games).

Here you have it again. Hog is such a Hog that the offense entrely shuts down. I saw two Hawks games at year's end, one on video tape. If you watched the games you know it and the stats further prove it. Hog kills and offense. That isn't JT's fault but considering that as a starter at Pg without Hog, either last year or this, JT averages 8 APG, not only is that not JT's fault but he looks to be a pretty d@mn good Pg by even Diesel's ego-biased standards. Certainly he is a winner as a starter at Pg without Hog. 28-21 is pretty good with JT as the full-time starter at Pg without Hog and if only we got a little more talent in a trade of Hog or somehow else we might be unstoppable. Right now it is Hog who stops us in our tracks.

W

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

Last year we had the most injured tema in the NBA! Moreover, JT didn't take on the starting Pg role full-time until the second half ofthe season!

---

We were the most injured team because, Theo, Hendu, and CC were all out for the season and Toni had stints of being out.

About JT at PG....Sorry Buddy.. Wrong. We brought in Email so that JT could move to PG and let Email handle the offense. We also brought in JV. Toni came back. At the beginning of last season, JT played PG. Email played SG... Toni SF.. We were a losing team. For the first half of the season we were 14-28. Then Toni got hurt...

We tried everything....

JT/Email/Dion....

Then Email got hurt....

JT/Dion/SAR/Strickland.

Then came Ira...

JT/Dion/Ira/SAR

Then DJ started playing...

Then Toni came back.

We finished playing against lowly competition with:

JT/Dj/Ira/SAR/Nazr.

However the point is that while we were healthy..

We had JT/Email/Toni/SAR/Nazr. Toni being a better SF than Ira and a better fit than Grob...

We were 14-28.

No need to remake history. These are the facts...

Now you come here and say over and over that we need to go back to being a .333 percent team... Probably worse because we lack ball handlers around JT...

COME ON Walter. We have tried that. Sure JT gets 17 and Reef goes for 22.. But Reef gets worn out because he's the focus of most defenses. Remember, Reef finished last season with a hurt back.