Walter..How many Hawks games did you watch in2003?

[Diesel]

>5

>!0

>20

>42

>70

All 82?

Let us know your level of expertise?

BTW, I watched between 50-60.

[Guest Walter]

I also played HS ball and have worked closely with 2 college basketball teams as a PTA/trainer.

Diesel, no matter how many games you (claim to have) watched, you still seem the ego-stroking idiot that insists "DG ran the offense" and the like.

I saw 2 games without Hog hogging the ball from the rest of the Hawks. It took maybe a quarter to realize the positive difference for every player individually and the team as a whole WITHOUT Hog. If it takes watching "50-60" games to become Hog's #1 apologist and blame not only JT but SAR and Theo for the team's failing WITH Hog when they won 67.5% of their games and had a +8 PPG differential without him, I'll pass.

It's pathetic that you blame Theo, SAR, and JT when SAR and JT won 19-17 games since JT became the full-time starter at Pg last year and with Theo added they won 9 of 13 ALL WITHOUT HOG! PATHETIC! LAME! You blame EVERYONE but Hog! EVERYONE! E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E! You have NO SHAME! NONE! YOU ARE S-H-A-M-E-L-E-S-S WHEN IT COMES TO BLAMING OTHERS TO SAVE YOUR EGO (and in this case Hog)!

Disgusting as it seems, your blaming SAR, Theo, and JT when they win without Hog and Hog never did is about all anyone could expect from you. You hitched your wagon to Hog and d@mn if you weren't going to [censored] on everyone but Hog to try and make you look better. You failed in the later but at least you blamed everyone BUT Hog. Kudos.

W

[Diesel]

That's all.

Please quit wasting my time.

You're ignorant.

[Guest]

I seen about 73 games this year.

I do think the players thought they had to grind

it out more when Robinson wasn't in there.

[Guest Walter]

Good grief that was ignorant.

Diesel, Hog led all the Sfs in the league in FGAs per minute. Not KG, not Rose, not even Mash were as trigger happy as Hog. Ya think Hog is a good enough one trick jusmp shooting pony to justify THAT abuse of shot selection? Was it JT's fault that Hog hasn't been able to help himself his whole career? WHATEVA!

W

[Diesel]

Don't make posts like this to this forum again. You've been warned.

[Diesel]

I'm not disagreeing with you.

I've watched the team enough to know that we don't know how to integrate everybody into the offense when Big Dog is on the floor. However, That's not big Dog's fault. There are a whole lot of problems.

However, my problem with old 7 game Walter is that Walter wants to try to deflect the true criticism...

The original comments were about replacing JT with Miller. 7 game thought that bringing Grob into the picture helps justify JT over Miller?? IN what world?

JT is not responsible for our wins when Grob is not on the floor. Not Closely responsible. [censored], better defense and easier schedule if nothing else.

BUT what 7 game fail to realize is that our inability to get everyone integrated into the offense may be easierly solved by having a better PG on the floor. That's what Miller is. He's a guy who can actually see the floor, run plays, direct traffic, etc. He needs structure though.

JT buckles under structure. How many coaches will have to dumb down their offenses so that JT can get it.

Now back to Big Dog.

When big dog had a competent Championship caliber PG, he scored his 20 pulled down his 6... Shot 46-47% and turned the ball over 2.6-2.9 topg.

When Big Dog plays with JT... He scores his 20/6 but he shoots 42-43% and turns the ball over 3.59 times per game. That's not shocking... SAR's first year playing here, his turnovers per game went from 2.6 topg to 3.3 topg.

Last thing... Will History repeat itself....

Last year, Toni didn't play down the stretch... Atlanta had a host of Home games and put up some wins. Toni was traded... Atlanta suffered from of all things Chemistry and NOT enough ball handlers.

This year, Grob didn't play down the stretch....

The message... Don't be fooled by Home wins and just squeaking by mediocre teams... 7 game didn't watch enough to realize that a lot of our HOME victories without Big Dog would have been victories with Big Dog. Nothing really to jump up and down about.

[Guest Walter]

biggest problem on this team, you need all help with your opinion you can get!

If not a 7 game opinion how about a 49 game fact. The Hawks are 28-21 with JT as the starting Pg full-time SANS Hog! 26-43 WITH Hog no matter who was the starting Pg.

It took me two games without Hog compared to 5 with him to see this and a quick look at the stats to support it. You've got at least 43 loses with Hog in your "50-60" games (snicker) to come up with something more substantial than "JT can't run the offense" (but can win 67.5% of the games, 30% MORE games, and make 8 APG this season without Hog, not to mention go 19-17 and avg. >8 APG without Hog and with a M.A.S.H. unit of a team last year once made full-time starting Pg).

"You can run your mouth" but you can't back it up, D, just like JT "can't run an offense" but can dish out > 8 and 8 APG and record a 19-17 and 9-4 record respectively the second half of last year and this year WITHOUT Hog since being made fulltime starting Pg.

You watched "50-60" games and you A-L-O-N-E STILL can't see Hog was our biggest problem. D@mn you suck as an intelligent observer.

W

[Diesel]

Hey 7 game....

Exchange JT with Miller and Watch this team become winners.

[Guest Walter]

1) Hog took the most FGAs on his team each and every year of his career, including this year, where he took 60 and 100 more shots than SAR and JT respectively despite playing 13 fewer games and 500 fewer minutes.

2) Hog took the most FGAs per minute 1 FGA every 2.07 MPG) of ANY Sf in the NBA (including Garnett, Rose, Mashburn, everybody, AS IF...).

3) Hog took the most FGAs per minute of anybody not named Kobe, Iverson, Pierce, or McGrady...all SHOOTING guards and perhaps 4 of the NBAs top 8 players.

4) Hog has led his team in TOs the last 3 years and 7 of his 9 years. The two years he didn't he had both Allen and Cassell, All-star ball-handlers in the backcourt, yet even then he managed to lead his team two of those years. Even with two all-star back court players ball-handler in Terrell Brandon and Allen, Hog had 3.5 TOPG and led his team in TOs.

5) Hog cost us 11 PPG on defense as the team allowed 11 PPg fewer WITHOUT Hog and 8 PPG overall in terms of PPG differential. In otherwords, why try and "integrate" the un-integratable when doing so costs you 11 PPG on defense, 8 PPG overall, and half of your wins?

6) Additionally, this year we won 9 out of 13 games withOUT Hog. Further evidence supporting the lack of Hog was the team's best medicine? The less Hog shot the better the Hawks did, PERIOD!

Remember, this is a $10 million player we subtracted from the team without adding a player, we win, we also win more the LESS this player does the only thing he does remotely well (shoot) and the team losing 65% of the time when this player did play is more somebody else's (Theo, SAR, and JT) fault than his??????????????????????????????????????? Nonsense.

...

JT is more the typical Pg, at least in today's NBA of Francis, Arenas, Marbury, Billups, Bobby Jacksons, etc. than Hog is an "integratible" part of anything. Regardless of how "typical" he is, JT WINS GAMES AS THE STARTER AS LONG AS HE ISN'T TRYING TO "INTEGRATE" HOG THE INGRATE! Regardless of how "integratible" Hog is, he has and never will change, he gives up significantly more points than he scores, he shoots more than anybody on any of his teams, he shoots more than any SF in the NBA and all but a handful of supstar quality SHOOTING guards this year to GET HIS, and simply we lose more the more he does and plays.

W

[Guest Walter]

Miller can't cause Hog to not shoot more than everyone on his team every year, all the Sfs in the NBA, and all but 4 NBA players, SHOOTING guards named Kobe, Iverson, Pierce, and T-Mac.

Miller sure turned LAC into winners. Imagine him trying to "integrate" Hog the NBA's biggest blackhole and worst ball-handler at Sf. And doing so without an all-star ball-handling Sg. Terrell Brandon and Allen couldn't even get Hog's TOPG under 3.5. Even Cassell and Allen saw Hog lead their team twice in TOs when they handled the ball mostly.

We've S-E-E-N what this team does withOUT Hog and with NO ONE in return. IT ALREADY WINS WITHOUT HOG! Even 7 games observed is better than your conjecture by your own games watched = intellegence BS! If it takes an equal player to JT in Miller to make this team better after a trade of JT and NOBODY to replace Hog in order to make this team win twice as much of its games without him, then who is more responsible for us winning 35% of our games WITH Hog? The guy that needs to be replaced by an equal player for the team to win according to you or the guy that needs NO replacement for the team to win 67.5% of its games instead of 35%?????????? DU-DU-DUHHHHHHHHHH?!?!?!?!?!?

Why not trade Hog for Miller? Maybe because you d@mn well know that Hog isn't worth [censored] and the whole league, Kasten, and the whole forum knows it! Still, he's worth more to us "dead" (not playing) than alive.

W

[Guest]

I want GRob gone. I'll start with that. But Walter, show a little understanding and at least read the similar conversation I had iwth D a few days ago...

D's point, essentially, is that Miller is a very good half court pg, perhaps top 3 in the L in that aspect, who doesn't require many shots (cause he won't take them), has decent range and nice floor vision...he's the prototypical half-court offense pg, and a good one.

D simply has a problem with JT. IMO, you trade GRob, retain JT, and find an athletic swingman type player and the team instantly becomes qutie athletic, quick, and uptempo.

Either way, the team needs someone/something...and I think this something should be a new home for GRob. Look at it this way D, if you resign JT for seven years at 40-42 million (high end of his probable worth) and trade GRob to:

acquire two players - an older bad contract and a younger swingman with starter potential and resign Ira...let the starters work themselves out amongst new guy, DJ, Ira. Salary is less and team is probably better.

However, if you don't resign JT, then the team needs both a starting pg and sg (unless you're ready to let DD start as pg and/or Ira as sg, and we both know he's not ready/playing out of his natural position respectively). Seems that trading GRob and acquiring a backcourt mate with some height (6'5 or more) handles and a decent outside shot would be the easier thing to do...

perhaps something similar to the Indiana trade proposed by another poster

[Diesel]

You would lead me to believe that Grob gets the ball, brings it up the court and goes coast to coast everytime.

Watch a game 7 game Charlie.....

We don't run plays much. Our offense is Stagnant. Grob is a shooter... and everytime down, the sandlot PG passes the ball to Grob in the midst of a stagnant offense with no game plan.

Had we had Dominique, he would have shoot 200 times more than JT and SAR. The good thing about those Hawks is that they had Movement on the offense and they had a PG who knew when to opt for Nique.

It's a fact that with a good PG and a structured system, Grob has been a 46-47% shooter. Give a real PG Big Dog and SAR and watch what happens. Even for the short time that Wilks was here... He knew how to integrate both SAR and Grob in the game. Even though he's very green, Dickau knows not to make the pass to Grob the first pass. Grob is NOT a POint forward.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

Miller can't cause Hog to not shoot more than everyone on his team every year, all the Sfs in the NBA, and all but 4 NBA players, SHOOTING guards named Kobe, Iverson, Pierce, and T-Mac.

---

Yes, he can. A true PG can run plays and decides who gets the ball and who doesn't. I thought you said you played PG?? Watch a game 7 game. JT doesn't run plays....outside of the pick and roll and give and go. If we had an offense...even a simple motion offense, it would be good... but we run 2 man games... Leaving everyone else to sit around and wait for the ball to swing their way.

But the PG is the guy who runs the offense and runs the team. For you to make a stupid statement like Miller can't control how many shots Big Dog takes IS Stupid and shows that you know very little about basketball and even less about being a Point Guard.

[Guest]

PG or No PG it's hard for me to give Robinson credit

for anything when he can't even dribble.Sure he averages

20/6....but hey,he plays 38MPG and takes alot of shots...

It doesn't make Robinson look likea very impressive

player.

Robinson is the worst dribbler in the history of the NBA.

[KB21]

So now Glenn gets compared to Dominique. Glenn, the standstill shooter who can't dribble or drive, gets compared to Dominique Wilkins, a guy who could do everything offensively and create his own shot.

[Diesel]

Let's get something straight.

I think JT is a great PLAYER. I don't think he's a good enough PG to run our offense Yet.

My point as you have said is given the choice between JT and Miller right now... I would take Miller every day.

I also agree that if we keep JT, other things need to be done because it means that we have to become an uptempo team.

Mainly, we'd have to get somebody in the backcourt with JT who can run the offense and make the offense RUN. For that reason, I favor going to a 2 PG offense if we keep JT. That's not too hard to do. Trade for Stoudamire. Trade for Billups. Trade for Atkins and we're halfway there. It's the easiest solution because for 3 years we have been in search of the Big OG or Point Forward to add to our offense to help JT.... And even when we got Toni, it still wasn't consistent enough help.

Just off the top of my head... A three way...

GRob to NY.

Spreewell/Filler to Milwaukee.

Cassell/DMason (SNT) to us.

I'd play Cassell with JT and top us off with DMason at the three.

Just off the top..

Grob/Nazr to PTL

Stoudamire/Woods/1st to Atlanta.

Just off the top....

Grob to NY.

Spree to Philly.

Snow/McKie to Atlanta

[Diesel]

Is being able to dribble supposed to be in his description. He was a standstill shooter with a good midrange game (catch and release) when we look at him. What makes you think he will all the sudden become Jamaal Mashburn or Paul Pierce? He's a standstill shooter, not a point forward.

Hotlanta, you are guilty of doing what a lot of fans do. Look at other players and wish our players played like them. Well, sometimes you get what you get. That means that JT doesn't drive and dish nearly as much as you think he should because even though he has the speed, he is not Marbury. That also means that Big Dog isn't a Point forward. However, that takes nothing away from either player.

[Diesel]

You're right... Glenn's game doesn't compare to Nique's...> However, his mentality does. He has a scorers mentality. By that same token... Antoine Walker wishes he had the game that SAR has... But Walker is more successful than Reef in that employee #8 wants the ball. NOW, if Walker ever had Reef's ability, especially in the Low post, he'd be the most dangerous PF in the game. Or better yet, if Reef had that attitude that Grob and Walker and Nique has then he'd be the most Dangerous PF this side of KG. IN Short, your game isn't neccessarily shaped by your attitude and vice versa.

[KB21]

If that's not his game, then he shouldn't be taking 21 shots a game like he does. It does nothing but hurt the team.

As the stats have already proven, this team is much better when he takes less than 14 shots a game.

Sure, Shareef doesn't demand the ball, but he doesn't hurt the team by taking an inordinate amount of shots. Shareef is actually a team player.