Unexpected fallout of Mitchell report.

[chillzatl]

Quote:

---

I don't know exactly why, but I just think Americans hate Barry Bonds.

---

c'mon man, you don't know why?!? give me a break.. you know exactly why and it really has nothing to do with steriods.

[Diesel]

You say that as if The rocket hasn't been a SMUG ass?

[Diesel]

There are several things it could be:

1. Race.

2. The record.

3. His relations with the media.

Let me just say though...

If it is his relations with the media it should be a wake up call to the public. Meaning the media can paint any guy the way they want to paint him and basically cause widespread hatred.

The record is something else.

Why was Hank Aaron so hated in his time... while Reggie Jackson so adored? Now Hank was never caught using performancing enhancing drugs... The only things there was race and Babe.

I don't think Babe really left that strong an impression on Millions of people who prolly never saw him playing. It just doesn't make sense.

However, this time... will show that there's great hypocrisy.

I expect that there will be some baseball purist who will be hateful towards Clemens... but it won't be like Bonds where a large part of society hates him. I would suggest that of those who hate Barry...

Many are not baseball purist.

Many are not baseball historians.

Many are not really what you consider strong baseball followers.

Many are not even aware of Barry Bonds'ignoring the media era...

Nor are they aware of Barry Bonds' personality.

I think many of them are people who have picked up on the scandal and just decided to hate Barry because of what the media has said. However, those same people will probably not take a side when it comes to the rocket or Tajada or any of the other players caught.

[chillzatl]

I wasn't really asking a question, it was a statement, but you know it's not race or the record.

He's been disliked by fans and the media for years because he's a surly bastard. The media doesn't have to paint him any way because he's done that himself. Every time a camera was pointed at him and he was asked questions he's always come off as a bastard and that "leave me alone" attitude resonates right through the TV to the people watching. It's his fault and nobody elses.

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

He's been disliked by fans and the media for years because he's a surly bastard

---

I think this goes beyond being a "surly bastard"... Simply because his name is a lightening rod in most places. Even though they call baseball America's favorite Pasttime, there's not a lot of people that follow baseball. Yet, Bonds is the most hated Athlete in all of Sports right now and most hated person period second to OJ. That goes beyond Baseball. He's up on Federal charges... and the others who are desperately trying to spin this steroid thing will never, ever see a courtroom. There's an element to this that goes beyond being a bastard. Giambi and Clemens are bastards.. This is something else.

[chillzatl]

he's been hated for years. It's nothing new. It's magnified now, but the underlying dislike of him has been there since his days with the Pirates. The source of it all is that he's a bastard to the people that project his face to millions and that bastardness rubs off.

And don't pretend that his federal charges have ANYTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH ANYONE ELSE. You're trying to draw some kind of sympathy parallel between Bonds, who got on the stand and lied, under oath, to the feds, to a bunch of guys who have been caught using performance enhancing substanes. The only similarity there is that they all cheated, but that's where the similarities start and end.

[Diesel]

Well, that's interesting.

I was what you would call a casual Braves fan back at the beginning of the streak... Before the streak, I actually had the chance to go to a lot of Braves games, went, enjoyed them but didn't really keep up with baseball because the Braves sucked so badly. You know back when they had Gene Garber, Phil Niekro, Dale Murphy, and Chris Chambliss... etc...

Then when they turned it over got all the new guys, i started watching the Braves a little closer and by the time Sid Bream was rounding the base and coming in to home... beating the Pirates, I was a full blown Braves fan but not a big fan of baseball.

I say that to say this...

In that time, what I knew of Bonds was that he was Barry Bond's son. I knew nothing of him being a Surly bastard...

Even after him, Bonillia (he prolly used Roids), and the other guy left the Pirates and went on their way... I didn't know he was a surly bastard. It wasn't until after the roids scandal first broke that I realized that he was a surly bastard disliked by the media.

If I who was a casual fan of baseball had that experience... then I think that a lot more people may have had the same experience. However, there's such an intense widespread hatred for Bonds among serious fans, casual fans, and non-fans that it's just unbelievable. It's too much hatred for him to be that he's just a Surly bastard... I mean, I can understand not speaking to the media when you've been misrepresented... To me, it just seems like the media is Welding a lot of power...

[Eddielives]

I just get the feeling D that you are looking for an admission that people hate Bonds more because they are racists. Is that the underlying notion here?

[chillzatl]

I was watching those games too and I remember both Bonds and Bonila being regarded as asses, even back then. I definitely wasn't the fan I am now nor did I follow the sport as closely as I do now. I also remember Bonds leaving the Pirates and there being a lot of local fans who weren't sad to see him go.

I also disagree about the media misreprensenting him. They don't alter the video to put that perpetual scowl on his face. They don't edit his comments as he's walking into the stadiums to make him sound standoffish and rude. That's just who he is and if you go back and find articles written about him by writers who cover his teams, they all say the same thing. The face he puts on for the cameras doesn't make him appear to be a nice guy and he's obviously a guy that doesn't care what anyone thinks about him.

[Diesel]

I don't know... that may be your reason Eddie.

I just see this as a phenomenon. I mean, I have see people pull up HATE when talking about Barry Bonds. You know like you do everytime he's mentioned. Even people who don't follow baseball that closely seem to hate Bonds.

These things I think:

1. It's more than Steroids.

2. It's more than him being a surly bastard.

I actually think it's closer to a media assassination.

Honestly, the media's job is to "sell papers".

I think the media really enjoys villifying a surly bastard. And with what you have with Bonds... You have the perfect storm for widespread hate.

Some more things I think:

1. I'm pretty sure that there will be hypocrisy.

No doubt about this... Guys are already getting a pass on their steroid use...

The experiment is to see:

1. How much power does the media really have.

2. Is it Money, revenge, or race that causes the media to go after Barry in a way that they don't go after any other guy.

I get what Chillz is saying about what the media can't do.

However, One thing the media can do and often does is put their own spin on a situation.

Just like in the article mentioned previous.

For Bonds they were accounts. For Clemens they were allegations.

Words are powerful.

[AHF]

You should like this article, D:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/sto...mp;sportCat=mlb

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

I've made it clear how I feel about the hitter's version of you -- Barry Bonds. I think Bonds took performance enhancers and has lied about it. I think his numbers are fraudulent and he doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. The book, "Game of Shadows," provided the prosecutorial road map and, if Bonds' case goes to trial, I think the federal case against him will provide the confirmation of his guilt.

But any difference between your situation and Bonds' situation is evaporating quickly.

Maybe some people gave you the benefit of the doubt over Bonds because of a likability factor. If they did, they should reconsider.

This isn't about who's a "good" or a "bad" guy.

The feds didn't go after Bonds because he's a narcissist.

This is about compromising a game and its history, about choosing between moral high and low roads, about the simple act of cheating and lying.

Brian McNamee has spoken. When will you?

---

It makes you ask the question...

Why did the feds go after Bonds and Not McGwire or Sosa?

[Eddielives]

There is a big difference between HATE and objective criticism. It is a widely accepted assertion that Bonds has never been a likeable guy when it comes to his relations to the media and people in general. So, if you will, please don't go down that road with me. I'm in too much of the Christmas spirit to get into defending myself to those who want to mix negative criticism and "HATE" as one in the same. That's where so many people go wrong around here. You say something wrong about their guy and they think you are hateful. It's childish really and only leads threads to become back and forth go nowhere attacks.

[chillzatl]

Quote:

---

It makes you ask the question...

Why did the feds go after Bonds and Not McGwire or Sosa?

---

no, no it doesn't. The only reason you would need to ask yourself that question is if you're mentally incapable of understanding what perjury is.

HE LIED UNDER OATH.

The feds went after all of them, not just Bonds. Bonds was just the only one who was stupid or arrogant enough to get up on there and LIE. That's the only reason the feds bring people in for that type of questioning. So that they can see if they're going to lie on the stand so that if/when they get evidence against them, they have something to charge them with. As bad as Mcqwire and Sosa looked up there, they were smart enough to not lie.

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

HE LIED UNDER OATH.

---

Didn't McGwire and Palmerio go to the Senate Hearing and deny using Steroids..

Moreover, You say Bonds lied under oath...However, it hasn't been proven in a court of Law that he lied...

But Palmeiro...

Pointed his finger, lied... then went out the next week and was Caught using Steroids.

Quote:

---

Palmeiro's statement: "Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. My name is Rafael Palmeiro and I am a professional baseball player. I'll be brief in my remarks today. Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids. Period. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never. The reference to me in Mr. Canseco's book is absolutely false. I am against the use of steroids. I don't think athletes should use steroids and I don't think our kids should use them. That point of view is one, unfortunately, that is not shared by our former colleague, Jose Canseco. Mr. Canseco is an unashamed advocate for increased steroid use by all athletes."

---

How has the feds gone after Palmeiro??

[chillzatl]

No, both Mcgwire and Sosa played the "I have no recollection of those events" line the entire time. Neither of them ever said "I did not use steriods". If you remember Mcgwire repeatedly said "no comment" and Sosa pretended he couldn't speak english. As bad as it made them look at the time, it was probably the smartest thing either of them ever did.

Palmeiro I don't know about. I remember his whole finger wagging thing, but haven't heard much about it since. Can't really comment on it any more than that.

As for Bonds, it doesn't have to be proven in court for them to charge (indict) him. They feel they have evidence to prove that he lied under oath, which is why they indicted him. He'll get his day in court.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

No, both Mcgwire and Sosa played the "I have no recollection of those events" line the entire time. Neither of them ever said "I did not use steriods". If you remember Mcgwire repeatedly said "no comment" and Sosa pretended he couldn't speak english. As bad as it made them look at the time, it was probably the smartest thing either of them ever did.

Palmeiro I don't know about. I remember his whole finger wagging thing, but haven't heard much about it since. Can't really comment on it any more than that.

---

McGwire destroyed his legacy but preserved his legal stature by refusing to answer the question. Sammy "I don't understand English" Sosa did roughly the same thing. So chillz is 100% right on both of them.

I can't explain why Palmeiro didn't get investigated. At the time, there was a short investigation and a conclusion that there was no evidence that he used prior to his testimony before Congress. IMO, they didn't dig hard enough.

Clearly, however, the Feds took a more serious view of lying to a grand jury in Court than lying to Congressmen.

Why is not really understandable to me.

It is certainly not a situation where Bonds has been singled out on his own, though. Other athletes who lied to the grand jury have been charged since then, most notably Marion Jones who entered a plea agreement after denying things under oath previously.

[Diesel]

It's interesting who is choosen to go before the Grand Jury and who is not choosen eh?

[chillzatl]

be a man and say it!

[AHF]

Quote:

---

It's interesting who is choosen to go before the Grand Jury and who is not choosen eh?

---

Why wouldn't Bonds be chosen?

He was directly linked to BALCO - just like Jason Giambi, Marion Jones and others. His personal trainer was convicted as part of the BALCO investigation.

He and other athletes that were listed in the BALCO records, etc. were brought before the Grand Jury and given immunity for their testimony. The only caveat was that they had to tell the truth.

When the feds believed they perjured themselves (Jones, Bonds, etc.) then they get charged with perjury and obstruction of justice.