Some SAR trades....

[Diesel]

What About SAR/JT(SNT) to NY for Houston/#9/Ward/Williams.

With #9, why not gamble and go with Malick Badiane

Why is this even important? Well, NY is in a funny position. McDyess seems to be a Bust that will never play again. Spreewell and Houston are both SGs and now that Spreewell is getting older, his ability to play SF is becoming suspect. Above everything else, NY needs good gaurd play.

On our side, Badiane seems like a very interesting Prospect. Sorta like Nene. We set the table for the future by getting a three point Shooter (Houston) and relying on Dickau/Williams/Ward for PG for now.

I mean.... Williams/Houston/Grob/Badiane/Theo....

We've set a table with that squad.

What about.....

SAR/#21 to Orlando for Hill/Gooden/#15.

Hill is set to retire. We get that money back.

Gooden is probably going to be better than SAR in the future.

#15 gives us a shot at some good talent. This trade breaks down to Reef/#21 for Gooden/#15. The best part of the deal is that Gooden is more athletic and plays good defense. For Orlando, Tmac/SAR would be a good 1/2 combo!

Finally,

SAR/Nazr to Cleveland for Ricky Davis/Big Z/Mihm.

Does this deal fly?

I don't know. However, if we could get:

Big Z/Theo/Grob/R.Davis/JT on the team together, it would bring excitement.

Aside from his bad feet, Big Z is probably the best C behind Shaq and Yao. If he was not injured that way, he would be 2nd best in the league.

I figure with James coming to town, Cleveland needs some stability. James will probably play the SG for a few years. Having a combo of SAR/Boozer at the fowards should help until they could get some more role players. Possibly even look to get a FA like Maggette.

Juanny/James/Maggette/SAR/Nazr.

[Playmaker0017]

Diesel.

Why? I mean, really, why?

First, no one wants anyone on our team. Especially the players we NEED to get rid of.

What NEEDS to happen is simple. Trade Robinson for trash and filler. If we can't, then simply waive him.

He made us worse. We could NOT string together wins, unless he was on the bench.

Other than that, I don't HATE what we have.

JT and Reef work well together. Are they the right fit? I doubt it. But, out of the two, I think it is easier to replace an out-of-place PG then a PF who is considered to be top 5.

I am definately Reef biased, but I'm thinking --- why would you trade the only value to the team?

Play.

[JaHawk10]

JT and Reef work well together. Are they the right fit? I doubt it. But, out of the two, I think it is easier to replace an out-of-place PG then a PF who is considered to be top 5.

I am definately Reef biased, but I'm thinking --- why would you trade the only value to the team?

I agree wholeheartledly. I don't think it's a good idea to make a trade just to say "we made a trade". Especially when it involves our best player. Now, I like everyone, would love to see Big (insert explitive here) gone, but its gonna be hard to move him unless we do waive him. Yes, Reef is our biggest value but i dont like the idea of trading him for a mid-lotto pick and a declining star. This team has gotten burned by trading its best players in the past. Making that deal would rank somwhere below Nique/94 and Smitty/99. Just say no...

[LordnSavior]

I agree with you when you say we should trade Robinson but unfortunately i feel that he want be going anywhere anytime soon. Everyone knows Glenn is a great shooter but since he doesn't have the ability to create his own shot, he doesn't play good defense, and he has a large salary I see him as an Atlanta Hawk for a while. Don't be mad though, just think of him as the new John Koncak!!

[Playmaker0017]

LordnSaviour,

The thing is ... we were dumb enough to take him.

There has to be another team willing to take on the waste-of-space.

I have to believe we can trick another team into taking him ... even if it is for much less than we gave up.

Play.

[LordnSavior]

I know it would never happen but I see Glenn fitting in well with a team like the Lakers. He'd be a great third weapon for them and would take some of the pressure off of Kobe and Shaq (who really needs to get himself in shape this offseason). The only problem is the Lakers don't have anything that we need in order to make the Hawks a better team now. Which brings me to this question, are we trying to make deals that will help us this upcoming season or are we back to building for the future?

[Playmaker0017]

LordnSavior,

I think that we need to do a little of both. But in order to do either, one must establish the team.

To me, this team lives and breathes with Reef. I'd tell Reef that he is going to shoulder the workload this coming season.

I mean, if you look at the league ... there is only one TD, one KG, one Shaq. Other than those guys, is there anyone that can single-handedly make a team win? I don't think there is. Kobe is a good player, but without Shaq he was helpless. Carter is good, but he can't lift his team alone. Tmac obviously couldn't. Iverson ... I don't know about him, whether he can or can't. He shouldn't be able to by the way he plays, but I think he might be one of the three mentioned.

Anyhow, Reef is one of the lesser players. He isn't KG or TD. That is obvious. At least he hasn't taken that step yet. I think Reef is someone to build around, despite his innate aversion to leading.

Glenn needs to go, by ANY means necessary. Taking another teams excess trash and cutting half of them, is fair enough. He brings nothing to the team, and it is shown statistically that he contributes to losing.

Play.

[LordnSavior]

Playmaker0017, I agree with you, I think this team should make an effort to build around Reef. I also, think that JT and Theo should be thrown into the mix. Everyone else in my opinion should be put on the first thing smoking out of town. Let's all be honest, DJ probably isn't coming back, Ira isn't a starter, Dickau is too small and to slow to be an effective pg in the NBA, Nazi is inconsistent and the only trade bait we have, and everyone else on the team sucks (pardon my French). Instead of trying to get big name players to come here (like we did with Glenn) we should be focusing on getting players in here that are good role players.

[Playmaker0017]

LordnSavior,

This is what i have been trying to communicate for a long time. We need ROLE-PLAYERS!

All-stars don't equate to more wins in all cases.

I would rather some decent guys that work hard, can dribble, and defend rather than one guy that can do all three at a high level. Those guys are SO hard to come by, and when you do ... (ie. Reef) you expect too much.

JT is the only iffy one on the list of keepers. I think he has a lot to prove to me, before I would commit to him. I just don't see him as a PG. But, he is definately better than some alternatives.

I think we spend the offseason picking up Kenny Anderson and Steve Smith, and we will have bolstered this roster two fold. They aren't the best in the business, but they get their job done, PLUS they want to be here.

We need to quit overvaluing the roster we have. Most of our players are trash and certainly NOT complimentary.

Play.

[Diesel]

I cannot disagree with you more when you say trade Big Dog for Trash or waive him. It makes NO sense whatsoever. First let's get the basics together.

1. Grob has a contract that NO one will touch UNLESS you take on a LONGER more worthless contract.

Playmakers, I think you get this part. However, you actually want to take on the Longer MORE worthless contracts? For instance if someone said... GRob for Croshere, you'd try to think of some good reasons to take a guy who has never shown Much more than a few shots in the playoffs.

The second way that someone will take Grob is if we take some INJURED Player. For instance, I'm sure that NY will think about trading McDyess for Grob if we give them #21. I'm sure Houston would love to swap Rice for Grob.

The whole Waive idea is a bad one because it doesn't save us any money or free up any capspace. You might be too young to remember Ken Norman but we missed out on a lot of good deals because of Ken Norman's back.

Also, Big Dog is our leading scoring and we have yet to see him play beside a good PG. As far as him, we know that when he played with Cassell, he average 20/6 and he shot 46-47% from the field. You can hee and haw all you want to about his defense, we knew he wasn't a great defender when we traded for him. And if you want to criticize his defense, put SAR and JT's on trial too. But he has given us what we were looking for when we acquired him.

The problem is that some of you need to seperate your hurt over the 8th pick from your expectations. Did you honestly think Grob would be the savior for this team? Did you honestly think Grob would be a defensive standout? So why are you trying to waive a 21/7 player because he was not those things. While you're at it... Why not throw the baby out with the bathwater too.

[Diesel]

I might not have stated this, But I didn't propose trades for SAR to say... "We made a trade".

The truth is...

Reef for as good as he is is making about 14 million dollars next year and a little more the year after. Then in the summer after he will be a FA. The only way we can keep him is to sign him to an extension. If we sign JT this summer, We will probably not have enough money to allow SAR to test the market and then sign him for less than he is already making. PLUS, no agent worth his salt would allow him to do that.

Reef is young. However, do you think Reef is worth 15-16 million per year?

That's probably what it would cost to keep him.

I love Reef's game (wish that he could pass out of the post a little better) and I'm not willing to pay that much.

So instead of Losing Reef for nothing in 2 years, I say trade him while his value could get us a star and a player with Potential.

I really like Reef/#21 for Gooden/Hill/#15.

That deal gets us Gooden (Who is a better match for Theo and JT) and #15 who could be a SG for us plus Cap space when Hill retires at the end of the summer.

[Playmaker0017]

Diesel,

So, your thoughts are to keep the only player that has proven that he makes the team worse?

The stats prove that the Hawks are a proportionately WORSE team for each minute the Big Loaf plays.

So, in your analysis, we have yet to see him with a decent PG. Thus, we should justifiably BUILD around the only player who can make our team worse when he is on the floor. That is what you suggest. Trade away Reef and Terry to get a PG, so that he "might" make Big Loaf better?

I would trade Big Loaf for a water cooler, if I thought we could get an injured McDyess for him ... I would shoot whoever shot the deal down.

As for being the leading scorer ... he was the leading scorer by default. He wouldn't let anyone else shoot. He's a hog. He didn't EARN the spot, he took it.

As for Loaf saving the franchise... no, I didn't think that. But, I figured he would be a bonus, not a hinderance. His mere presence made us worse. Is that possible?

While I understand the basics ... the basics don't include the facts.

Play.

[Playmaker0017]

Diesel,

And you trade one of the premier players in the league (who actually WANTS to play for this farce of a franchise) to get Gooden ...

Sorry, I don't buy it.

JT still will be unable to work with Big Loaf.

The cancer and eyesore of the organization is Big Loaf. He makes the team worse for every minute he plays.

Play.

[LordnSavior]

Although I think I understand where you're coming from when you say trade Reef I don't agree with you. By trading Reef in an attempt to save money in the future we're not doing anything but hurting ourselves. You have to start thinking just how many more years can Phillips Arena sit empty and how much longer can you make the fans wait for a winner while you try and save up money for a superstar talent that may never come. I seriously think we should focus our efforts on brining in two defensive minded role players that can compliment JT, Reef, and Theo. In these three you have two consistent scores and a slightly above average center (there's no center in the league that can compete with Shaq so let's work with what we have). It would be a lot easier and lead to a lot more wins in the near future than going through the trouble of tanking the next few seasons in order to try to get a free agent the caliber of Kobe, KG, or TMac.

[Traceman]

potentially makes us better. I would NOT trade him because was worried about "losing him for nothing." Reef likes Atlanta and if we offer at least the same money he can get elsewhere, we will retain him. He is too young to take a pay cut and go play for a championship caliber team.

We don't have to extend Reef's contract in order to keep him from walking. We have his Bird Rights and we exceed the cap to resign him once his deal expires.

[Guest]

What NEEDS to happen is simple. Trade Robinson for trash and filler. If we can't, then simply waive him."

I don't mean any disprect, but even though I dislike Dog

alot....waive him????The least we could do is make him

a 6th man againest SF's and backup PF's.

Reef truely isn't worth his contract either.He doesn't increase

(the attendance has actually decreased while he's been

here I think)and he doesn't help us win.And dispite what

some think....This was his worst season since his rookie

year.It'll take more than a high shooting percentage to

convice me otherwise.His points/boards/blocks all went

down.Plus he has a bad back so that adds another risk

to keeping him.

Trade him and rebuild the team correctly.Shareef isn't

a 1st option and you aren't going to get someone better

with him still on the team.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

And you trade one of the premier players in the league (who actually WANTS to play for this farce of a franchise) to get Gooden ...

Sorry, I don't buy it.

---

Well, the whole trade was Reef/21 for Gooden/15/Hill.

The thing about Gooden is that over the last 2 months as a Rookie he averaged about 12.6 ppg/8.1 rpg.

He's not big yet but he's very athletic. I think if we decide that we will resign JT.... Gooden is a better match for JT than Reef simply because Gooden is Athletic.

Moreover, there's an exchange of picks. Which could mean the difference between Mo Williams and Boris Diaw.

Lastly, even though Gooden is not a 20/10 player Yet. We don't have to pay 14 million dollars for his 12/8... And he's soon to become a 20/10 player in the right system.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

So, your thoughts are to keep the only player that has proven that he makes the team worse?

---

No. The reality is that NO other team is likely to take him because of his contract. AND it MAKES Absolutely NO SENSE to waive him and pay him forty Million Dollars to play His Playstation at Home. YOU might not like Big Dog... BUT I wouldn't lay the blame of this team being what it was on Him. The truth you need to start to grasp is that there is a WHOLE LOT of blame to go around. #1 and Mainly, you need to evaluate the PG position. JT is a SG. The Whole League Points to JT. It's evident when he plays that he doesn't recognize defenses or finds the open man. Don't you think it's funny that Big Dog has gone for a 47-48% shooter with Milwuakee to a 43% shooter here? Do you think it's because he forgot how to shoot?

In reply to:

---

So, in your analysis, we have yet to see him with a decent PG. Thus, we should justifiably BUILD around the only player who can make our team worse when he is on the floor.

---

Hold on again PLAY.... NEVER did I say Build around Big Dog. I said that we look at what will happen int he future. In 2 years, Big Dog's contract, will run out too. I'm saying that that's the time we get rid of him if we can't make a decent trade by then. NO Way would I ever entertain what you are suggesting... getting somebody else's Trash or outright waving him? That's idoitic. I'd rather bring him off the bench before even thinking about those options. AND Big Dog isn't a player who can be built around. His game is too one dimensional. He's exactly what we brought him in to be. BUT... When I suggest trading for guys like Gooden or Houston... The purpose is to find a Match for our talent. With JT here, we are a Running team (or should be). With Theo Here we are not really a halfcourt team. However, with Reef and Big Dog here, we are a Half court team. We have so many different mixes of styles that we lack "Chemistry" because of them. I believe that Gooden is a better match for JT's game Than Reef. I love Reef's game but Gooden is a running PF who plays defense.

In reply to:

---

I would trade Big Loaf for a water cooler, if I thought we could get an injured McDyess for him ... I would shoot whoever shot the deal down.

---

So you would take the 5 years left on Gimpy McDyess' Big Contract than to suffer through 2 more years of Big dog's? See you have gone beyound Reason Play. McDyess is never going to retire but he's never going to play a full season either. He's already planning to come back in January but his playing days are really already over. I'd take the Big Dog who is not a great fit with our current team but can score 20 than the McDyess who keeps our Salary Cap Blocked UP for the next 5 years.

In reply to:

---

As for Loaf saving the franchise... no, I didn't think that. But, I figured he would be a bonus, not a hinderance. His mere presence made us worse. Is that possible?

---

You act as if JT or SAR has made us any better. Listen good. We were a 30 something win team last year when we had TONI instead of Big Dog. Toni makes most teams he play for Better. So what was the problem then? It's the same problem that we had this year:

Bad Coaching. Bad Mix of Players. Bad defense.

Again Play, are you so Naive that you are going to lay all our shortcomings in the lap of Big Dog? Get a clue man. We were bad before big Dog. Yes Big Dog is a ball hog. So was Dominique. The difference is that Dominique had a better PG. JT doesn't know how to run an offense so his first response after he gets the ball across halfcourt is to throw it to Reef on the perimeter or to throw it to Big Dog. When was the last time JT evaluated the defense and Called a Play other than his 2 fingers in the air mocking Isiah Thomas? When was the Last time JT did more than play 2 man game with Reef.

Yes.... I'm very critical of JT. I happen to think that we'd solve our problems quicker by moving JT than Moving Grob. It's a fact that in any offense, the PG is more important than the Sf. The PG is supposed to dictate the flow of the game. JT can't . Nor does he desire to. It's been 4 years. JT is just a little better than when he first got here. So now we have started to question Allstars like Reef and Big Dog who have been consistent players whereever they have played and we leave JT alone because he's a fan favorite?? Wake up.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

You have to start thinking just how many more years can Phillips Arena sit empty and how much longer can you make the fans wait for a winner while you try and save up money for a superstar talent that may never come.

---

I think we have some major concerns in 2 years. Don't think I'm SAR bashing for the sake of SAR bashing. I have always been an SAR fan... Since his days at Cal. Back before some of you ever thought of a Hawks Board on the net, I was proposing ways to get SAR. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with SAR. Nothing. I still think he's the best PF in the eASt. BUT realistically, his contract is a concern. He makes too much. I don't think we will be able to resign him. Normally, that's an old lets wait and see... But in this case, it's inevitable. That's the sound of inevitability. The only reason why this is important is because there are some good trades that we can take advantage of NOW. BUT, this window is only open for a short time. Moreover, I believe that NO Player is Untouchable. Ever. If I was the GM for the Lakers, I would think about trading Shaq if it meant I could get a better team in the future.

And about the Phil being empty. It's a shame... But History shows that Unless we get Iverson, Kobe, or Shaq... The Phil will remain Empty. Atlanta is a town filled with a lot of transplanted folks who know nothing about basketball. New Ownership will return most of the faithful and may pick up some new fans. But Reef alone is not popular enough to create a buzz. Atlanta needs a Micheal Vick in basketball. I would consider a Reef for Iverson trade. I would also consider trades that would bring exciting players to Atlanta. If we could get Ricky Davis for Nazr, I would be all over that. But the point is that we must be realistic.

[Playmaker0017]

Diesel,

I don't entertain the idea that you are stupid. I know you like Reef and hate Big Loaf.

I was "semi-kidding" about the waive manuever ... but it would be darn funny. But, I wouldn't pass up an opportunity to shovel him to someone else for draft picks and fillers. We need role players - plain and simple.

We aren't getting a TD/KG type of player, there is only a select few of them in the league. They aren't going anywhere soon.

As for McDyess ... I don't know if he'll ever play again. I don't know the extent of his injuries. But, I do know one thing ... he'd contribute more than big loaf. If you want to get rid of the giant "waste-of-space" ... then why not pick up Hill, who is retiring?

JT & Reef were MUCH better than Big Load & JT & Reef - siply put, we gained TWO all-stars in Theo Ratliff and The Loaded One ... and we played worse ball. Heck, a good portion of our wins came when Load was sitting.

Comparing Big Loaf to Nique is plain ignorant. Nique may have taken his fair share of shots, but was also 10X the player. He could also dribble. That is like saying Big Loaf and Kobe Bryant. There is no comparison, but they both ball hog.

Don't blame the fact that he is a hog on the PG.

Of course, I also think PG is a problem with this team. I don't deny that. I think we would be wise to get Kenny Anderson in the offseason, or at least try. San Antonio is going to have a derth of good PGs available ... maybe we can pick one up.

During the finals, the one player I love is Ginobli... he isn't great by any stretch, but I like him.

Play.